DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 663--------------------------------------------------
Promises We Claim
By: Helen Date: March 9, 2015, 11:49 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I love Hebrews...it's one of my favourite books. "We have an
anchor for the soul."
Sure - It can be relied upon.
Steadfast - It is unmovable.
....it is secured.
The anchor is placed, not in this world, or in the human heart,
or in our ability to hold on to God Himself, His promises, or
His Word.
but the anchor is in "that within the veil." "even Jesus"!
The anchor of the soul is Jesus Himself! :)
The very fact that we are "in Him" now, Eph. 2:6, and that our
glorification has already been accomplished in the mind of God,
Rom. 8:29-30, works as an anchor to prevent us drifting about on
a sea of doubt.
We are literally anchored in Jesus Himself!! He is with the
Father, and we are tied to Him. Nothing can cause Him to cast us
off, nor can anything cause Him to slip. He is a sure and
steadfast the anchor of our soul. If we are in Jesus, He IS our
security.
Like a ship, we can still drift about while we are at anchor,
but we can only drift around the anchor point! This anchor will
hold and will never allow us to drift away!
Jesus is called the "forerunner." This literally means, "a
scout; one who come in advance to a place where the rest are to
follow."
Jesus ascended into Heaven with this promises , "I will come
again and receive you unto myself that where I am there ye may
be also,"
The difference between Jesus and the Old Testament High Priest
is clear.
The Old Testament Priest entered in behind the veil once a year
and always alone. No one could follow him into the Holy of
Holies. Yet, when Jesus entered into the Holy of Holies in
Heaven, He promised us that one day, we would join Him there! He
went on ahead but will receive us there later on.
He has gone on before to announce our arrival.
Not only are they waiting for us in Heaven, but they have been
preparing for our arrival over there!! John 14:3.
He has gone on before so that He can welcome us when we do
arrive!!
A good ponder for a Monday morning! :)
#Post#: 664--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: A nonny mouse Date: March 9, 2015, 2:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Great stuff Helen.
I too love Hebrews and particularly when we get to the summing
up of ‘faith’ in chapter 11, where we are told of all the
different forms of faith that were “accounted for righteousness”
in the cases of Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Jacob,
Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gedeon, Barak, Samson, Jephthae, David,
Samuel, and the prophets…… and yet we read (at the end of the
chapter)
“These all, having obtained a good report through faith, did not
immediately receive the promise: God having provided some better
thing that they should ultimately be made perfect together with
us.”…….(at the dawning of the Kingdom of Heaven)
What an incredibly blessed and privileged people we are when we
consider what follows at the beginning of chapter 12
“Wherefore seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud
of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which
doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race
that is set before us, looking unto Jesus the author and
finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him
endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the
right hand of the throne of God.” (The King of the Kingdom
having finally finished his redemptive work).
"Promises fulfilled and claimed"
#Post#: 665--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Kerry Date: March 10, 2015, 1:38 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
So did Enoch die or not?
Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not
see death; and was not found, because God had translated him:
for before his translation he had this testimony, that he
pleased God.. . .
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and
embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and
pilgrims on the earth.
Should we say that Abraham died and did not receive the
promises?
Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not
read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him,
saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the
God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye
therefore do greatly err.
#Post#: 699--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Helen Date: March 11, 2015, 3:34 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[size=14pt]Hi Kerry...in splitting hairs we could say that Enoch
'died' as it were out of this realm...but he obviously did not
go 'by the way of death' as we know it...but when he 'landed'
where he was going ( Paradise) he obviously did not need this
worlds 'breath' or this worlds body. Is that how you see it?
As I read and believe it..they didn't physically 'touch/recieve'
the promises...but like us...they saw it and embraced it by
faith...making it theirs/ours. I haven't embraced God, yet He is
mine..my God. ie...if God says it , it is as good as done. It is
done ( yet not within 'time'.)
/size]
#Post#: 700--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Alfie Date: March 11, 2015, 3:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=58.msg665#msg665
date=1426012730]
So did Enoch die or not?
.[/b]
[/quote]
maybe the better question is ; when will he die
REFERENCE ; who are the 2 witnesses of Revelation?
#Post#: 702--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Helen Date: March 11, 2015, 3:48 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
The Overcomers of the OT and the Overcomers of the NT.
#Post#: 707--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Kerry Date: March 11, 2015, 5:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=58.msg699#msg699 date=1426106057]
Hi Kerry...in splitting hairs we could say that Enoch 'died' as
it were out of this realm...but he obviously did not go 'by the
way of death' as we know it...but when he 'landed' where he was
going ( Paradise) he obviously did not need this worlds 'breath'
or this worlds body. Is that how you see it?[/quote]I don't
base what I believe on the book of Hebrews since it is so hard
to grasp and also since it contains these strange problems. I
agree that say Enoch did not die, but that is not what the book
of Hebrews says. It names him in list of men and then says,
"These all died." I don't have a scrap of hard evidence to
support it; but I believe the book was originally in Hebrew and
then translated to Greek; and I suspect someone added or altered
a few things. Chapter 11 does not seem to me to have been
written by Jew, or at least part of it. Consider this verse:
Hebrews 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the
covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden
pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables
of the covenant;
Nor do I think this book could have been read by Jews without
making them reach the conclusion that the author was confused at
times.
[quote]As I read and believe it..they didn't physically
'touch/recieve' the promises...but like us...they saw it and
embraced it by faith...making it theirs/ours. I haven't embraced
God, yet He is mine..my God. ie...if God says it , it is as good
as done. It is done ( yet not within 'time'.) [/quote]
By that standard, we could say all the people in the Old
Testament did receive the promises. Yet chapter 11 ends:
11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through
faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they
without us should not be made perfect.
I also do not know what to say of Jephthah. Had I written this
chapter, I would have omitted his name among those counted as
righteous. I happen to think he did sacrifice his daughter
misguidedly and I don't count that as righteousness. He can be
forgiven for sure, but I can't see him as righteous.
I am also wondering what "promises" are being discussed? This
chapter sometimes has the singular, "promise" and at other
times the plural "promises." It's all very confusing to me.
I understand this verse with its One promise kept:
11 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive
seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age,
because she judged him faithful who had promised.
Why is this in the plural?
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises,
but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and
embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and
pilgrims on the earth.
Then this says they did receive some of the things promised:
33 Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness,
obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions.
Then it's in the singular:
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,
received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they
without us should not be made perfect.
I can understand that they received some of the things promised;
but what is "the" promise they did not receive?
#Post#: 709--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Kerry Date: March 11, 2015, 5:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Patrick link=topic=58.msg700#msg700
date=1426106453]
maybe the better question is ; when will he die [/quote]Hebrews
says he already died.
[quote]REFERENCE ; who are the 2 witnesses of Revelation?
[/quote]Why speculate about that if we can't explain why Hebrews
says Enoch died.
#Post#: 711--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Alfie Date: March 12, 2015, 1:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=58.msg709#msg709
date=1426112967]
Hebrews says he already died. Why speculate about that if we
can't explain why Hebrews says Enoch died.
[/quote]
why speculate ?
Hebrews said he didn't die (11:5) and we know this is true of
Elijah too.
we also know that Moses did die, and yet was taken away by an
angel.
these are clues...
the mount of transfiguration
and we all have heard men say "law and the prophets"
but there is also this that needs to be said ;
Moses representing those who have DIED in CHRIST
Elijah representing those STILL ALIVE but in CHRIST
SUDDENLY GONE
and later in the same story
they killed John
ie; they will kill me
expanding the thought ; they will kill Enoch and Elijah
now look at all the people of the world whom say Mary was
assumed
if all men die; will Mary have to come back and die?
or is the thought about Mary's assumption ; just an assumption?
we speculate , to stretch out and look at the whole story
thou we may not see the whole story at once
we don't throw out the pieces we have when they don't fit our
preconceived agendas
all the pieces must fit to make the whole story
#Post#: 713--------------------------------------------------
Re: Promises We Claim
By: Kerry Date: March 12, 2015, 5:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Patrick link=topic=58.msg711#msg711
date=1426142678]
why speculate ?
Hebrews said he didn't die (11:5) and we know this is true of
Elijah too.[/quote]
Hebrews 11:5 does not say directly that he did not die. It says
he did not see death. That could mean several things. It
could mean he as a spiritual being left his body and then the
body died but he wasn't there to see it.
[quote]we also know that Moses did die, and yet was taken away
by an angel. [/quote]
Some Jews say he was assumed into Heaven. He is not on the
list, however, of the people the Jews usually say were assumed
into Heaven.
[quote]these are clues...
the mount of transfiguration
and we all have heard men say "law and the prophets"
but there is also this that needs to be said ;
Moses representing those who have DIED in CHRIST
Elijah representing those STILL ALIVE but in CHRIST
SUDDENLY GONE [/quote]How we say Moses was dead if he was there
with Jesus?
[quote]and later in the same story
they killed John
ie; they will kill me [/quote]I don't know what you mean here.
[quote]expanding the thought ; they will kill Enoch and Elijah
[/quote]
I thought Elijah incarnated as John the Baptist and died.
[quote]now look at all the people of the world whom say Mary was
assumed
if all men die; will Mary have to come back and die? [/quote]
You are slightly confused here. The doctrine about the
Assumption of Mary does not say she didn't die. Rather it says
her physical body was taken from the earthly plane after it
died. This is rare; and it is rarer still for someone's body
to be assumed before it dies; but both cases can occur. The
Jews have six people (I believe it's six) on their list (and
Mary is not on it); and Buddhists also teach about this but they
call it the dissolution into the rainbow body. According to the
Buddhists, the physical matter dissolves into light -- the seven
colors of the rainbow, so to speak.
[quote]or is the thought about Mary's assumption ; just an
assumption?[/quote] It makes sense to me; but then so too does
the assumption of the daughter of Pharaoh, Bithiah, and of
Eliezer the servant of Abraham. I can also believe Hiram of
Tyre was assumed bodily into Heaven.
[quote]we speculate , to stretch out and look at the whole story
thou we may not see the whole story at once
we don't throw out the pieces we have when they don't fit our
preconceived agendas
all the pieces must fit to make the whole story [/quote]Back to
Hebrews! It says "these all died" and Enoch is on the list.
So the question is does "did not see death" mean "did not die"
or something else? Or was the author of Hebrews writing perhaps
too quickly or without thinking when he wrote "these all died"
after mentioning Enoch?
What I might believe is that it is possible to "die"
spiritually, have the soul die, without the physical body dying.
This soul would then face judgment; and if it passed the
judgment, it would be reborn of the Spirit -- and could move the
way Elijah, Moses, and Enoch can move. Like the wind.
If you told me that the "carnal nature" in Enoch died but his
physical body did not, I could believe that; and I could believe
then he was "born from above".
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page