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#Post#: 734--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Piper
Date: March 13, 2015, 8:39 pm
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Is there a difference between 'disciple' and 'apostle'? It
seems there must be.
I've noticed that things do read differently when we understand
that sometimes, in Scripture, Jesus is speaking to the Apostles
and not to every one who 'follows' Him.
It is wise to notice the distinction between sheep and
shepherds, and to accept which one you are. It is not given to
all to be apostles.
What does it mean to shepherd the flock, and who has that right?
I think we are all meant to share the hope we have, but are we
all evangelists, fishers of men?
Knowing and accepting our place in the Kingdom is, I think, very
important. We have different gifts, and knowing our gift, not
coveting what was never meant to be ours, helps us live in
humility.
Could we drink the cup the apostles had to drink?
It would be a terrible responsibility to be a shepherd, I think.
A fearsome responsibility.
#Post#: 735--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: A nonny mouse
Date: March 14, 2015, 2:31 am
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I did a quick and interesting little study of different New
Testament descriptive terms for positions/duties within the
church using KJAV and Young’s Literal Translation.
I won’t claim it to be exhaustive, and others may wish to add
more (maybe by reference to other translations)
My list is:-
Apostles, evangelists, pastors, angels, shepherds, teachers,
deacons, ministrants, bishops, overseers, helpers, governors,
prophets, miracle workers, diverse tongues speakers, tongues
translators, and healers.
Denominations may well use additions terms not found within any
of the New Testaments translations, such as vicars and rectors,
and may well give ranking to certain terms (such as placing
bishops/archbishops/vicars of Christ, at the head of their
corporate denomination).
But, rightly or wrongly, my belief is that God does not
favourably regard the division of the church into separate
corporate denominations, and that the New Testament
identification of church ‘office’ relates only to localised
churches, without corporate affiliation to others who seek to
define themselves about their own chosen ‘man made’ criteria.
Such division has always existed since before ‘Christ’, and was
originally described as ‘sectarian’.
But IMO such division began to be ‘denominational’ around, or
even before, the 4th century Councils of Nicaea and Carthage.
Tell me where I’m wrong by all means (I often am).
#Post#: 738--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 14, 2015, 12:13 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Is there a difference between 'disciple' and 'apostle'? It
seems there must be.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, a disciple is a student or learner. The Book of Acts
speaks new converts as disciples.
--- Quote ---
> Could we drink the cup the apostles had to drink?
--- End Quote ---
Remember James and John who were given positions but still
wanted more?
Mark 10:35 And James and John, the sons of Zebedee, come unto
him, saying, Master, we would that thou shouldest do for us
whatsoever we shall desire.
36 And he said unto them, What would ye that I should do for
you?
37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy
right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.
38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye
drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the
baptism that I am baptized with?
39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye
shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the
baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:
40 But to sit on my right hand and on my left hand is not mine
to give; but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared.
Acts 12:12 Now about that time Herod the king stretched forth
his hands to vex certain of the church.
2 And he killed James the brother of John with the sword.
Careful what we ask for. We may get the hardships but still
not what we asked for if it was not meant to be.
#Post#: 739--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 14, 2015, 1:15 pm
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--- Quote from: A nonny mouse link ---
>
> How many of the Bible records of the things that Jesus said
were only applicable to those to whom he directly addressed?
> Now you really have opened up a can of worms Mr Dangerous
Mouse.
>
--- End Quote ---
One clear example of how important this context is is in
Matthew. In one day, Jesus first seems to say few will make
it in and then says many will. The first statement about "few"
is spoken to the inner circle in the sermon on the mount.
Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a
mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
When that sermon is over, they come down from the mountain; and
the multitudes are there again.
8:1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes
followed him.
Then he meets a Roman centurion who says he's not worthy to have
Jesus in his house. Jesus doesn't debate that with him. He
doesn't try to convert him to anything; but he says then that
many will sit down with Abraham:
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and
west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in
the kingdom of heaven.
It looks like a contradiction if we read them without the
context.
--- Quote ---
> All those "ye must" sayings that were only applicable to those
to whom they were addressed in person?
> That sure lets a whole multitude of us fish 'off the hook',
eh?
--- End Quote ---
Yes, to a certain extent it does. I think some Christians may
feel condemned or inadequate when in fact they are doing nothing
wrong. The average person is not told to sell all he has and
give it to the poor. Indeed, it is useful for most people to
have money. They can do good deeds the way the Good Samaritan
did. They can support their churches and various charities.
Who would want to become a Christian if they saw that you had to
be a beggar to be a Christian? I think the average Christian
provides a better witness for Jesus if he works, has money, and
then uses that money to keep his family safe and secure first of
all and then to help others around him. That is very
different from having rich people as clergy or allowing clergy
to become rich from their positions. You will get money
grubbers as clergy if you make the positions too lucrative.
There is something wonderful about people who want to get money
honestly so they can use it to do good. There is something
abominable about wanting to be a member of the clergy with the
outward appearance of piety while the real motive is to
accumulate money by fleecing the sheep.
I think of fondness of Mary, Martha and Lazarus who must have
had some money if they could invite Jesus to dinner. Did Jesus
tell them having money was a sin for them? The owner of the
Upper Room truly intrigues me since it was so secret. Was that
to protect the owner from persecution, or did he prefer to do
his good deeds anonymously? At any rate, we see Jesus being
supported by others who were glad to do good deeds for him; and
without money, could they have?
#Post#: 741--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Piper
Date: March 14, 2015, 3:44 pm
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I had never taken notice of the seeming contradiction concerning
the "many" and the "few". I checked context:
--- Quote ---
> Matthew 8:11-12
>
> 1I tell you, many will come from east and west and sit at
table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven,
> 12while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer
darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."
--- End Quote ---
I wondered who "the sons of the kingdom" are that Jesus mentions
in verse twelve.
Found this commentary (Ellicotts):
--- Quote ---
> The children of the kingdom.—The form of the phrase is a
Hebraism, indicating, as in “the children of the bride-chamber,”
those who belonged to the kingdom, i.e., in this case, the
Israelites, to whom the kingdom of heaven had, in the first
instance, been promised, the natural heirs who had forfeited
their inheritance.
--- End Quote ---
Makes me aware that many today, as well, who believe they are,
or who "seem" to be, sons of the kingdom, may fail in
righteousness and similarly be cast out. Seems probable that we
may be surprised by who is cast out and who is allowed to enter
in. All is not what it seems in the world of men.
Righteousness does not flaunt itself. Humility is meek and
often silent.
I never used to fear for my salvation. I no longer live with
absolute certainty, but believe my salvation must be worked out
with fear and trembling. This mindset, though, makes me
evaluate my self and my ways more carefully, praying David's
prayer, requesting God to search my heart, to see if there are
offensive ways within me. I know there are. It is a daily
battle. One of the best things I am learning is the value of
silence, of careful thought and consideration before speaking.
#Post#: 742--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Piper
Date: March 14, 2015, 3:59 pm
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How we use the money we are given reflects our hearts. If we
prove to be responsible and generous with the little we have,
God may see fit to trust us with more. I've learned many hard
lessons concerning money. I have also learned that it seems if
you give of what little you have, God will give back to you
seven-fold. But, you must never forget from Whom all good things
come.
Never take any good thing for granted. The Lord gives and the
Lord takes away. Blessed be the name of the Lord.
#Post#: 743--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 14, 2015, 4:39 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> I had never taken notice of the seeming contradiction
concerning the "many" and the "few".
--- End Quote ---
I remember how confused I was at first.
--- Quote ---
> I checked context:
>
> I wondered who "the sons of the kingdom" are that Jesus
mentions in verse twelve.
>
> Found this commentary (Ellicotts):
>
> Makes me aware that many today, as well, who believe they are,
or who "seem" to be, sons of the kingdom, may fail in
righteousness and similarly be cast out. Seems probable that we
may be surprised by who is cast out and who is allowed to enter
in. All is not what it seems in the world of men.
Righteousness does not flaunt itself. Humility is meek and
often silent.
--- End Quote ---
According to Jesus, there will be some surprised people. Some
will be pleasantly surprised, others unpleasantly. I love to
think about the people who will be pleasantly surprised.
Yes, some Christians today want to say they are children of
Abraham too but then do not seem to acknowledge that to whom
much is given much is required. They want to read "the children
of the kingdom" to mean only the Jews in Jesus' day. It's so
odd to me that people today can have the same attitude of the
Jews back then; and while they can see the shortcomings of the
Jews, it doesn't occur to them it might also apply to them.
--- Quote ---
> I never used to fear for my salvation. I no longer live with
absolute certainty, but believe my salvation must be worked out
with fear and trembling. This mindset, though, makes me
evaluate my self and my ways more carefully, praying David's
prayer, requesting God to search my heart, to see if there are
offensive ways within me. I know there are. It is a daily
battle.
--- End Quote ---
A little fear is healthy. It is safe to stand on a cliff if we
have the proper fear of the height. It is wise to fear
electricity so we can learn to use it. Indeed, the "fear" (or
"awe") of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom.
--- Quote ---
> One of the best things I am learning is the value of silence,
of careful thought and consideration before speaking.
--- End Quote ---
As the saying goes, one thing leads to another. Ideas are
generally harmless unless we give them power by action or
speaking. It's easy to start, as Cain did, with words. We may
think words are harmless; but one thing can lead to another.
#Post#: 744--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: A nonny mouse
Date: March 14, 2015, 5:01 pm
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I find it increasingly difficult to believe in there being a
distinct difference between 'some' who will be totally
'rejected' and 'some' who will be 'accepted', in whatever is to
be the final state of mankind.
I suspect such a notion to be that of 'primitive' minds.
I guess that's me moving away from all that I once embraced.
I would rather believe that all will end in the 'same place'
with a graded hierarchy as the only differentiation.
Notwithstanding my frequent lapse into biblical fundamentalism
for the sake of peaceful fellowship with those for whom such is
sacrosanct.
#Post#: 745--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: March 14, 2015, 5:17 pm
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--- Quote from: A nonny mouse link ---
>
> I find it increasingly difficult to believe in there being a
distinct difference between 'some' who will be totally
'rejected' and 'some' who will be 'accepted', in whatever is to
be the final state of mankind.
> I suspect such a notion to be that of 'primitive' minds.
> I guess that's me moving away from all that I once embraced.
> I would rather believe that all will end in the 'same place'
with a graded hierarchy as the only differentiation.
> Notwithstanding my frequent lapse into biblical fundamentalism
for the sake of peaceful fellowship with those for whom such is
sacrosanct.
>
--- End Quote ---
The idea of having only two classes of people strikes me as
naive. We will all be rewarded according to our words and
deeds. Any attempt to get around this is an attempt to say God
is not Just. God is perfectly Just.
People may wish to dodge the issue, but they do so at their own
peril. In the New Testament when the Last Judgment is
discussed, we are often told how we will all be judged by our
words and deeds. Let us not try to squirm out of it.
It is God's Will, of course, that no one perish, so He is
longsuffering. My own belief is that only a small handful of
people will be completely "rejected" in the end.
#Post#: 746--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can we be believers today?
DIR By: Piper
Date: March 14, 2015, 7:26 pm
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That evil exists can not be denied. That evil invades the
hearts of men can not be denied. That some men choose to reject
good, to reject mercy, to reject God, can not be denied.
We make our choices.
God is just. Love can be no other way. If there are losses, it
is not that God has forsaken men, but that men have forsaken
God.
Jesus preached repentance from the very beginning of His
ministry. He warned His listeners, " . . . unless you repent,
you too will all perish." Some will not repent.
We choose whom we serve. God is not at fault if some refuse
Him. It is man who chooses darkness over light. The children
of darkness make their choice. The children of light are drawn
to the Light.
The world is much darker than we care to acknowlege.
Salvation belongs to the Lord. God will save whom He will. He
is mighty to save.
Yet, He also says, "Vengeance is mine." Jesus warned about the
One who can destroy both soul and body.
God refines those who choose Him. If God were going to force
refinement even on those who reject all that is good, it seems
He would have used force from the beginning--but there would be
no love. No one can force anyone to love, not even God. To
love is a choice.
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