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#Post#: 46--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Helen
Date: November 26, 2014, 10:09 am
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Quoting Danger Mouse..You say the Holy Spirit opens eyes? This
doesn't seem to explain it completely since in this cases,
Jesus said the Father had revealed it to Peter. ???
I was taught, and have never changed my mind....yet. That "in
the beginning" God concieved/thought it.
Jesus/Word , spoke it...the Holy Spirit did it.
While we know that 'at this time' the Holy Spirit had not been
'given', He is the only one who openes the 'eyes' that we 'see'.
Jesus is The Truth...."However, when He, the Spirit of truth,
is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not
speak of himself; but whatever He shall hear, that shall He
speak: and he will show you things to come."
The point can be argued from John 1 " 8 He ( John) himself was
not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The
true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the
world."
I still believe that in the Beginning the Light/Jesus
said..."Let the be light," and the Holy Spirit performed it ".
It does say..3" Through Him all things were made; without Him
nothing was made that has been made. " ( I am saying all this
before you say them! LOL) Yet I still believe He does the
speaking and anything that has happened since our world begun
has been via the Holy Spirit...including opening the eyes of the
blind ( as in Peters case) to see all that Jesus and the Father
are.
Off topic maybe...the night in 1964 when I was born again...I
"felt" a most powerful Presence...never felt that before...I
'felt' like I was standing right before God...I was looking at
the full moon in our little back yard after coming home from the
little chapel. It 'felt' like the full moon was His face.
But over the years 50 of them I have felt that presence time and
again...it is God's Spirit...the Holy Spirit. As we know...none
of us have actually interacted with the Father yet..not
FULLY...He reaveals Himself, but we don't "know Him"....that is
why even at the end of Paul's life...he cried out " Oh that I
might know Him /Christ..." He didn't even feel like he knew
Jesus, let alone the Father. That joy is yet to come!!
Father , Son and Holy Ghost....I personally believe the one that
'we' know best, is The Holy Spirit.
He is the one who came, and the one who 'deals with us', and
changes us.
But...that's just me. :)
#Post#: 49--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 26, 2014, 11:52 am
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--- Quote from: Helen link ---
>
> I was taught, and have never changed my mind....yet. That "in
the beginning" God concieved/thought it.
> Jesus/Word , spoke it...the Holy Spirit did it.
>
> While we know that 'at this time' the Holy Spirit had not been
'given', He is the only one who openes the 'eyes' that we 'see'.
--- End Quote ---
So if the Spirit had not yet been given, how did Peter have it
revealed to him?
--- Quote ---
> Jesus is The Truth...."However, when He, the Spirit of truth,
is come, He will guide you into all truth: for He shall not
speak of himself; but whatever He shall hear, that shall He
speak: and he will show you things to come."
--- End Quote ---
This is confusing. First, this was revealed to Peter before
Pentecost. It also say the Spirit will speak, and that is not
in line with the opening remark that Jesus/the Word does the
speaking. Yet the text itself says the Father revealed it to
Peter.
The point can be argued from John 1 "[i] 8 He ( John) himself
was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The
true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the
world."
--- Quote ---
> I still believe that in the Beginning the Light/Jesus
said..."Let the be light," and the Holy Spirit performed it ".
--- End Quote ---
Sure about this? How does Jesus as "the beginning and the end"
fit into things? How does Jesus as the Light of the world fit?
--- Quote ---
> It does say..3" Through Him all things were made; without Him
nothing was made that has been made. " ( I am saying all this
before you say them! LOL) Yet I still believe He does the
speaking and anything that has happened since our world begun
has been via the Holy Spirit...including opening the eyes of the
blind ( as in Peters case) to see all that Jesus and the Father
are.
--- End Quote ---
Did Peter become the rock by hearing Jesus speak? I'd say yes;
and I'd also say Peter "did" something when he "heard."
John 6: 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth
nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and
they are life.
64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew
from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who
should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come
unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no
more with him.
67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go?
thou hast the words of eternal life.
The idea that the Holy Spirit was not yet given can be taken too
far I think. I've heard some people say that the Spirit never
filled anyone before Pentecost; but the Bible says otherwise.
The idea is based on John 7.
John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said,
out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on
him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given;
because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
This does not say to me that no one ever had the Spirit before
Pentecost. It seems to be saying that Jesus could not give the
Apostles something of his own Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, until
he had been glorified. After he was glorified, then they would
receive living waters which would spring from their bellies.
Compare to the Rock giving water in the days of Moses.
--- Quote ---
> Off topic maybe...the night in 1964 when I was born again...I
"felt" a most powerful Presence...never felt that before...I
'felt' like I was standing right before God...I was looking at
the full moon in our little back yard after coming home from the
little chapel. It 'felt' like the full moon was His face.
> But over the years 50 of them I have felt that presence time
and again...it is God's Spirit...the Holy Spirit. As we
know...none of us have actually interacted with the Father
yet..not FULLY...He reaveals Himself, but we don't "know
Him"....that is why even at the end of Paul's life...he cried
out " Oh that I might know Him /Christ..." He didn't even feel
like he knew Jesus, let alone the Father. That joy is yet to
come!!
> Father , Son and Holy Ghost....I personally believe the one
that 'we' know best, is The Holy Spirit.
> He is the one who came, and the one who 'deals with us', and
changes us.
>
> But...that's just me. :)
--- End Quote ---
The mystery may be how we do not experience God as "present"
everywhere. We say God is omnipresent, but we don't experience
things that way.
#Post#: 51--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Edwin
Date: November 26, 2014, 12:07 pm
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Thank you Danger Mouse for your comments on my Reply #3.
However, let me now deal with, "my question was about something
else;"
It is merely a question of time. The passage from John deals
with a time after what Matthew had to say about him.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
#Post#: 58--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Helen
Date: November 26, 2014, 3:33 pm
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:D I don't find it confusing at all. And I agree "But this spake
He of the Spirit, which they that believed on Him were to
receive: for the Spirit was not yet given ; because Jesus was
not yet glorified. So although 'He was not yet given,' we are
told in John 1 that John B was filled with the Spirit from his
mothers womb. So, it is easy to see that the Holy Spirit gives
revelation to Peter, even though Peter wasn't yet "filled with
the Spirit" until Pentecost.
I see no conflict with Jesus being the Word, being the Life
etc...yet it is the SPIRIT which 'performs 'the work of God in
the Word, and in the Life.
It says
"But if the SPIRIT of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, He THAT RAISED up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you."
Jesus was The Life ( WAY, TRUTH, LIFE) yet, 'The Life' Himself
was raised up BY the Spirit
Jesus is The Word..but it is the Spirit which makes the words
that Christ spoke "spirit and life" to us. They are One, they
work together. We can't chop them up, God is one. ( but the head
is not the mouth or the eye..they all work in harmony..)
The Holy Spirit easily fell upon Peter with revelation knowledge
long before he was baptised in the Spirit and filled at
Pentecost.
As I see it.....
#Post#: 61--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 26, 2014, 4:01 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Edwin link ---
>
> Thank you Danger Mouse for your comments on my Reply #3.
>
> However, let me now deal with, "my question was about
something else;"
>
> It is merely a question of time. The passage from John deals
with a time after what Matthew had to say about him.
>
>
--- End Quote ---
Hi Edwin,
I thought the passage from John was about when Jesus met Peter
for the first time. The passage from Matthew was later, wasn't
it, when Jesus took his disciples with him to the "coasts of
Caesarea Philippi."
#Post#: 62--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 26, 2014, 4:05 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Helen link ---
>
> :D I don't find it confusing at all. And I agree "But this
spake He of the Spirit, which they that believed on Him were to
receive: for the Spirit was not yet given ; because Jesus was
not yet glorified. So although 'He was not yet given,' we are
told in John 1 that John B was filled with the Spirit from his
mothers womb. So, it is easy to see that the Holy Spirit gives
revelation to Peter, even though Peter wasn't yet "filled with
the Spirit" until Pentecost.
>
> I see no conflict with Jesus being the Word, being the Life
etc...yet it is the SPIRIT which 'performs 'the work of God in
the Word, and in the Life.
> It says
> "But if the SPIRIT of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, He THAT RAISED up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you."
> Jesus was The Life ( WAY, TRUTH, LIFE) yet, 'The Life' Himself
was raised up BY the Spirit
> Jesus is The Word..but it is the Spirit which makes the words
that Christ spoke "spirit and life" to us. They are One, they
work together. We can't chop them up, God is one. ( but the head
is not the mouth or the eye..they all work in harmony..)
>
> The Holy Spirit easily fell upon Peter with revelation
knowledge long before he was baptised in the Spirit and filled
at Pentecost.
> As I see it.....
>
>
>
>
--- End Quote ---
If the Father or the Spirit revealed it to Peter, wouldn't that
be them speaking?
#Post#: 63--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Edwin
Date: November 27, 2014, 7:13 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Danger Mouse link ---
>
> Hi Edwin,
>
> I thought the passage from John was about when Jesus met Peter
for the first time. The passage from Matthew was later, wasn't
it, when Jesus took his disciples with him to the "coasts of
Caesarea Philippi."
>
--- End Quote ---
Danger Mouse.
What reason do you have for believing this?
Edwin.
#Post#: 64--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 27, 2014, 9:03 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Edwin link ---
>
> Danger Mouse.
>
> What reason do you have for believing this?
>
> Edwin.
>
--- End Quote ---
Here is the reason. I'll have to quote a rather long section
of the chapter.
John 1:28 These things were done in Bethabara beyond Jordan,
where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith,
Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is
preferred before me: for he was before me.
31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to
Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending
from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him.
33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with
water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the
Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which
baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.
34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.
Peter is not mentioned in those verses; but things progress:
35 Again the next day after John stood, and two of his
disciples;
36 And looking upon Jesus as he walked, he saith, Behold the
Lamb of God!
37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed
Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto
them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say,
being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he
dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth
hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was
Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
So Peter was not there to hear what the John the Baptist said;
but Andrew was.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him,
We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the
Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he
said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called
Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
So we learn that Peter learned about Jesus first from his
brother Andrew who introduced them.
Matthew 16 is later since by that time Jesus had already picked
all the disciples. John the Baptist was also dead at that time;
and Matthew tells us that some people even believed Jesus was
John the Baptist.
Matthew 16:13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea
Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I
the Son of man am?
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some,
Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the
Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but
my Father which is in heaven.
So Matthew 16 came after John 1. I believe what while Andrew
told Peter that Jesus was the Christ, Peter really didn't know
for sure until it was revealed to him by the Father.
#Post#: 66--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
DIR By: Edwin
Date: November 27, 2014, 11:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Danger Mouse for your Reply #17.
Which I found most informative.
May the Lord continue to bless you, and keep you safe.
Edwin.
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