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#Post#: 28--------------------------------------------------
About Peter
By: Kerry Date: November 25, 2014, 6:01 pm
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What do you make of this? First this we read someone did tell
Peter that Jesus was the Christ:
[B]John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed
him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him,
We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the
Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he
said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called
Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.[/B]
Yet later, when Peter says Jesus is "the Christ," Jesus says
flesh and blood had not revealed it to him.
[B]Matthew 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the
Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon
Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but
my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this
rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not
prevail against it.[/B]
#Post#: 29--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Helen Date: November 25, 2014, 7:24 pm
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The way I see it is...is much like when I became a beliver in
UR.
I was 'told' that '"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive." (And all the other things that go with
it)..it sounded good, but I was not convinced at that
point....it took a while..
THEN it became a revelation!!
Information is one thing...but revelation is something quite
different.
When the Holy Spirit opens the eyes, He opens the eyes...before
then one cannot really 'see', he is only informed, it is not a
persusion.
Paul said about Christ " for I know whom I have believed and am
persuaded.."
I believe Peter was 'convinced' by the revelation he had...
That is my two cents :)
#Post#: 30--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: A nonny mouse Date: November 25, 2014, 10:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I would say that just as Peter’s brother Simon said ”We have
found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ”, and
then brought Peter to the risen Jesus, so too the human element
is often at work in bringing a person to meet the risen Christ.
But thereon it is Christ, who is no longer ‘flesh and blood’,
who takes over and does the “revealing”.
God is a spirit (not flesh and blood) and those that worship him
must do so in spirit and in truth.
The 'spirit' of God definitely 'speaks', but not in words of the
flesh, no longer in words written on tablets of stone, nor in
words written in ink on Papyrus, but in words written on "the
fleshy tables of our hearts".
Patience Strong puts it more succinctly than I ever could:-
When all the rugged ragged ways of youth were ours to roam, we
lost the keys to elfin land among the hills of home - just
listen to the whispers in the quiet of the dawn - a thousand
little muffled sounds along the wind are borne - the gentle
rustling of a tree - the trembling leaves that sigh, the reed
that bends and quivers when the breeze goes laughing by....and
in the silence of the hour when twilight shadows fall - when
sunset spreads its golden cloak of radiance over all - the air
is full of whispers, little voices scarcely heard - the tinkling
of the elfin bells - the calling of a bird....and in the silence
of the soul when we are all alone - God speaks to us in whispers
in a language of His own - above the loud confusion of the mind
and of the will - a gentle Voice breathes through the heart, and
whispers "Peace--Be Still".
#Post#: 36--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Edwin Date: November 26, 2014, 5:00 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you Danger Mouse for your topic. Here are my thoughts on.
Peters Confession.
Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ,
the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you,
Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to
you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on
this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall
not prevail against it.
There is a play on words here in verse 18, which could be
rendered as, "you are Petros, and on this Petra I will build My
church".
Everything in the Bible is there for a reason, although we may
not at first understand why.
We are given the geographic location of this incident as
"Caesarea Philippi", which as I am sure you know is situated at
the base of Mount Hermon.
This is the highest mountain in Israel, and is right up in the
north. It is snow capped for most of the year. This snow melts,
and forms streams, which come out from the base of a vertical
sandstone cliff face at Caesarea Philippi.
You can find Photographs of Caesarea Philippi on the Internet,
these will show not only a cliff face about 100 feet tall, and
about 250/300 feet wide, but also a flat bed stream with small
stones/pebbles in the water.
The vertical soft rock was ideal for carving alcoves in, and
into these alcoves were placed images of the many false gods
worshiped at that time, including "pan".
It is therefore against this background of dead false god
worship, that our Lord reveals the one and only true, and living
God.
It was also a suitable place to refer to "Petros" (the Greek
word for Peter, which can also mean pebble, or small stone) in
the stream bed, and of course "Petra" (the Greek word for
Rock*), but how is He to do this as He speaks in Aramaic*?
(Remember Matthew would be there not only to hear what Jesus
said, but also to see what He did).
Could it be I wonder that when Jesus spoke, that He pointed to
both the stream, and the cliff face? And now to "Bar-Jonah" .
Firstly it suggests that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, but more
important why did He not just say Peter, or even Simon Peter?,
why bar-Jonah?. Is He referring to the name of Peters father, No
because Peter's father was called John,see.
NIV - Jhn 1:42 - And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at
him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called
Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).
I believe that He is using the well known custom of describing a
man's nature as being just like that of the person referred to,
ie in this case the prophet Jonah.
Now in what way is Peter like Jonah. God spoke to Jonah, telling
him where to go, but Jonah went in the opposite direction. God
spoke to Peter. Act 10:14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I
have never eaten anything common or unclean"..
So what was Jonah told to do? Go to Nineveh, a gentile city, and
where did he go to, he went to Joppa. Where was Peter in acts Ch
10, Joppa. He was told to eat, he refused.
Afterwards Jonah went to Nineveh a city of three days journey,
yet when he had only gone one day they all repented. What did
Peter do, he went to a gentile household, and before he had
finished his sermon, they all repented. Now do you see.
* Petra the Greek word for Rock, can mean a whole cliff face or
even mountain side, see Petra, a location in southern Jordan.
* Aramaic, I have been told that there is only one word in
Aramaic for pebble, stone, rock.
Petra. What did Jesus mean when He said, "and on this rock
(perta) I will build My church,"
There is no doubt in my mind, that our Lord Jesus Christ is
indeed the foundation on which His Church is built, i.e. 1 st
Cor Ch 3 v 11, however, I do not think that He was referring to
Himself when speaking as recorded at Matthew Ch 16 v 18, but to
what had just happened to Peter.
I believe He was saying that His Church would consist of
individuals, each of whom will have exactly what Peter had just
had, i.e. direct Divine intervention into their lives, enabling
them to accept Jesus as Savior. John Ch 6 vs 44 & 65.
God bless.
Edwin.
#Post#: 37--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Edwin Date: November 26, 2014, 5:04 am
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Helen, what is meant by UR?
Thank you.
Edwin.
#Post#: 40--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Kerry Date: November 26, 2014, 7:07 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=5.msg29#msg29 date=1416965096]
The way I see it is...is much like when I became a beliver in
UR.
I was 'told' that '"For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ
shall all be made alive." (And all the other things that go with
it)..it sounded good, but I was not convinced at that
point....it took a while..
THEN it became a revelation!!
Information is one thing...but revelation is something quite
different.[/quote]To me, it's like the situation where one
person hears another person preaching the Gospel. The first
person can hear the words and may believe to a certain extent;
but he doesn't really know until he hears it from the angel in
Heaven who preaches the Everlasting Gospel.
[quote]When the Holy Spirit opens the eyes, He opens the
eyes...before then one cannot really 'see', he is only informed,
it is not a persusion.
Paul said about Christ " for I know whom I have believed and am
persuaded.."
I believe Peter was 'convinced' by the revelation he had...
That is my two cents :)[/quote]You say the Holy Spirit opens
eyes? This doesn't seem to explain it completely since in this
cases, Jesus said the Father had revealed it to Peter. ???
#Post#: 41--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: A nonny mouse Date: November 26, 2014, 7:11 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=5.msg40#msg40
date=1417007228]
To me, it's like the situation where one person hears another
person preaching the Gospel. The first person can hear the
words and may believe to a certain extent; but he doesn't really
know until he hears it from the angel in Heaven who preaches the
Everlasting Gospel.
[/quote]
That's a good point.
But then I would say that since it's close to what I had posted.
#Post#: 42--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Kerry Date: November 26, 2014, 7:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=5.msg30#msg30
date=1416975813]
I would say that just as Peter’s brother Simon said ”We have
found the Messiah, which is, being interpreted, the Christ”, and
then brought Peter to the risen Jesus, so too the human element
is often at work in bringing a person to meet the risen
Christ.[/quote]Do you mean "risen" as having coming up out of
the water after the baptism?
I would go further than you. I believe there is always a human
element at work. Perhaps if someone lived alone on an island,
we might suppose not; but even then, I think there would have to
be humans praying for the solitary man on the island. I cannot
see how anyone could come to it by himself. "Faith comes by
hearing"; and the usual case is that we hear other people
talking about Jesus and come to believe that way.
[quote]But thereon it is Christ, who is no longer ‘flesh and
blood’, who takes over and does the “revealing”.
God is a spirit (not flesh and blood) and those that worship him
must do so in spirit and in truth.
The 'spirit' of God definitely 'speaks', but not in words of the
flesh, no longer in words written on tablets of stone, nor in
words written in ink on Papyrus, but in words written on "the
fleshy tables of our hearts".
Patience Strong puts it more succinctly than I ever could:-
When all the rugged ragged ways of youth were ours to roam, we
lost the keys to elfin land among the hills of home - just
listen to the whispers in the quiet of the dawn - a thousand
little muffled sounds along the wind are borne - the gentle
rustling of a tree - the trembling leaves that sigh, the reed
that bends and quivers when the breeze goes laughing by....and
in the silence of the hour when twilight shadows fall - when
sunset spreads its golden cloak of radiance over all - the air
is full of whispers, little voices scarcely heard - the tinkling
of the elfin bells - the calling of a bird....and in the silence
of the soul when we are all alone - God speaks to us in whispers
in a language of His own - above the loud confusion of the mind
and of the will - a gentle Voice breathes through the heart, and
whispers "Peace--Be Still".
[/quote]
I agree that there are at least two stages. Peter and all the
other Apostles were not qualified to lead the church when Jesus
picked them. They became qualified however. I believe first
they were willing to hear and to obey Jesus; and since they were
willing to hear him, they came to understand that his words were
not his own. While Jesus said whoever say him had seen the
Father, I'd also say whoever heard Jesus (really heard) had
heard the Father. Over time, they grew spiritually until they
could hear the Father without having Jesus speaking to them
physically. They had been lost sheep, and Jesus had brought
them back to the Father. At that point, and only at that
point, could they hear from Heaven and be guided by the Holy
Spirit. They were then ready to be shepherds themselves.
Personally I believe if we follow human teachers trying to do
our best, God accounts it to us for righteousness even the human
teachers aren't perfect. As long as we are seeking, seeking,
seeking, to hear the Voice of God, sooner or later, we will.
Yes, this follows baptism (the spiritual one which may or may
not coincide with a physical one). We read in Genesis that
when God spoke, dry land appeared out of the waters. Is it not
the same following baptism? Does the human heart not begin to
take on the proper spiritual form? I think that if the "new
heart" is nurtured and kept soft, it grows. Eventually God can
speak to it in a way He could not before when it was hard.
#Post#: 43--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Kerry Date: November 26, 2014, 7:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=5.msg41#msg41
date=1417007461]
That's a good point.
But then I would say that since it's close to what I had posted.
[/quote]I think you and Helen seem to be going in the same
direction here. And me too?
#Post#: 44--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Peter
By: Kerry Date: November 26, 2014, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Edwin link=topic=5.msg36#msg36 date=1416999610]
Thank you Danger Mouse for your topic. Here are my thoughts on.
Peters Confession.
Mat 16:15 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?"
Mat 16:16 Simon Peter answered and said, "You are the Christ,
the Son of the living God."
Mat 16:17 Jesus answered and said to him, "Blessed are you,
Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to
you, but My Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on
this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall
not prevail against it.
There is a play on words here in verse 18, which could be
rendered as, "you are Petros, and on this Petra I will build My
church".
Everything in the Bible is there for a reason, although we may
not at first understand why.
We are given the geographic location of this incident as
"Caesarea Philippi", which as I am sure you know is situated at
the base of Mount Hermon.
This is the highest mountain in Israel, and is right up in the
north. It is snow capped for most of the year. This snow melts,
and forms streams, which come out from the base of a vertical
sandstone cliff face at Caesarea Philippi.
You can find Photographs of Caesarea Philippi on the Internet,
these will show not only a cliff face about 100 feet tall, and
about 250/300 feet wide, but also a flat bed stream with small
stones/pebbles in the water.
The vertical soft rock was ideal for carving alcoves in, and
into these alcoves were placed images of the many false gods
worshiped at that time, including "pan".
It is therefore against this background of dead false god
worship, that our Lord reveals the one and only true, and living
God.
It was also a suitable place to refer to "Petros" (the Greek
word for Peter, which can also mean pebble, or small stone) in
the stream bed, and of course "Petra" (the Greek word for
Rock*), but how is He to do this as He speaks in Aramaic*?
(Remember Matthew would be there not only to hear what Jesus
said, but also to see what He did).
Could it be I wonder that when Jesus spoke, that He pointed to
both the stream, and the cliff face? And now to "Bar-Jonah" .
Firstly it suggests that Jesus was speaking in Aramaic, but more
important why did He not just say Peter, or even Simon Peter?,
why bar-Jonah?. Is He referring to the name of Peters father, No
because Peter's father was called John,see.
NIV - Jhn 1:42 - And he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at
him and said, “You are Simon son of John. You will be called
Cephas” (which, when translated, is Peter).
I believe that He is using the well known custom of describing a
man's nature as being just like that of the person referred to,
ie in this case the prophet Jonah.
Now in what way is Peter like Jonah. God spoke to Jonah, telling
him where to go, but Jonah went in the opposite direction. God
spoke to Peter. Act 10:14 But Peter said, "Not so, Lord! For I
have never eaten anything common or unclean"..
So what was Jonah told to do? Go to Nineveh, a gentile city, and
where did he go to, he went to Joppa. Where was Peter in acts Ch
10, Joppa. He was told to eat, he refused.
Afterwards Jonah went to Nineveh a city of three days journey,
yet when he had only gone one day they all repented. What did
Peter do, he went to a gentile household, and before he had
finished his sermon, they all repented. Now do you see.
* Petra the Greek word for Rock, can mean a whole cliff face or
even mountain side, see Petra, a location in southern Jordan.
* Aramaic, I have been told that there is only one word in
Aramaic for pebble, stone, rock.
Petra. What did Jesus mean when He said, "and on this rock
(perta) I will build My church,"
There is no doubt in my mind, that our Lord Jesus Christ is
indeed the foundation on which His Church is built, i.e. 1 st
Cor Ch 3 v 11, however, I do not think that He was referring to
Himself when speaking as recorded at Matthew Ch 16 v 18, but to
what had just happened to Peter. [/quote]Thanks for your
response, Edwin; and I think I agree with what you have written.
However, my question was about something else; and I wonder if
you have a view on that? I think Helen, Mike and I agree on
it. (That may never happen again, but it has now, it seems.)
[quote]I believe He was saying that His Church would consist of
individuals, each of whom will have exactly what Peter had just
had, i.e. direct Divine intervention into their lives, enabling
them to accept Jesus as Savior. John Ch 6 vs 44 & 65.[/quote]I
have a very bad memory about chapters and verses. I looked that
up and got even more confused.
I can agree with your statement however, "I believe He was
saying that His Church would consist of individuals, each of
whom will have exactly what Peter had just had." I just don't
follow your line of reasoning about it.
I base my reasoning on something Peter said:
1 Peter 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual
house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices,
acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
Here the Hebrew language man come into play. Physical houses
were built of stones, and spiritual houses were too. The word
"ben" can mean either "son" or "stone."
I see Jesus as the Foundation Stone, then the Apostles as twelve
primary foundation stones based on him.
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve
foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the
Lamb.
Peter then tells us that his readers wee also to be made into
"lively stones" to build up the spiritual house.
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