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#Post#: 593--------------------------------------------------
Can this be right?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 26, 2014, 8:25 pm
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Two sinners get drunk in a bar; and they get into fight and
Joe kills Bill. Some people say Bill will go to hell and burn
eternally. The story goes on. Joe is caught and put on trial,
found guilty and executed; but before he dies a chaplain
converts him to Christianity. Some people will say that Joe
will to Heaven and spend eternity there while Joe continues to
burn in hell.
Can that be right? I can't see how it could be. How could it
be right that the murderer would get more chances at salvation
than his victim?
#Post#: 594--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 26, 2014, 9:08 pm
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Consider a different case. Many people believe that babies
automatically go to Heaven if they die. If that is true, why
wouldn't abortion or killing babies be doing them a favor? Why
let them grow up and risk becoming sinners who will burn in
hell? Again, something seems wrong with the picture to me.
Even worse is the idea that babies who die would go to hell
eternally.
#Post#: 595--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Alfie
Date: December 26, 2014, 9:34 pm
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right; something seems wrong
what is wrong is that the either or of the op or the either or
of post one ;
thou pick you side; and think which one sounds right
all four choices are not in line with the gospel story
babies, innocent --- it doesn't say that
murderers go to heaven --- not only doesn't say that but in each
case we are talking of the old man ; in which never goes to
heaven murder or not
Abel the first murder victim--- doesn't go or not go to heaven
based upon his victim status
so; no matter how good any of these sound
none of these scenarios are the bible story
#Post#: 596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Ivor1
Date: December 26, 2014, 10:04 pm
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We could also consider what is meant by heaven and hell, is hell
the same as Dantes inferno painting.. or not?
#Post#: 597--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 26, 2014, 10:13 pm
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--- Quote from: Patrick link ---
>
> right; something seems wrong
>
> what is wrong is that the either or of the op or the either or
of post one ;
> thou pick you side; and think which one sounds right
>
> all four choices are not in line with the gospel story
--- End Quote ---
So what is the gospel -- the "good news" story? That aborted
babies go to hell?
--- Quote ---
> babies, innocent --- it doesn't say that
--- End Quote ---
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little
ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always
behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
--- Quote ---
> murderers go to heaven --- not only doesn't say that but in
each case we are talking of the old man ; in which never goes to
heaven murder or not
--- End Quote ---
Sorry is there a word missing in your sentence?
--- Quote ---
> Abel the first murder victim--- doesn't go or not go to heaven
based upon his victim status
--- End Quote ---
I was asking if murder victims went to hell eternally based on
their victim status. Could I make sure someone went to hell by
killing him? Do I have that power?
--- Quote ---
> so; no matter how good any of these sound
> none of these scenarios are the bible story
>
--- End Quote ---
So what are you saying? Anyone can get to Heaven by saying,
"Lord, Lord," to Jesus? Is it that simple? Do you think
that's an easy ticket to Heaven? I realize everyone wants a
free lunch, but do you really think it's that easy? By your
way of looking at things, will you go to Heaven while babies
fry eternally in hell?
#Post#: 598--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 26, 2014, 10:14 pm
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--- Quote from: Ivor1 link ---
>
> We could also consider what is meant by heaven and hell, is
hell the same as Dantes inferno painting.. or not?
>
--- End Quote ---
Let's just say a place of punishment.
#Post#: 599--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Ivor1
Date: December 27, 2014, 3:11 am
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to what degree of punishment? And his lord was wroth, and
delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was
due unto him. We know of debtors prisons for what they were in
Victorian times how was it in bible times if a debtor did not
honour his debt? .. were they burned day and night?
#Post#: 600--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Deborah
Date: December 27, 2014, 6:14 am
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The one person whose eternal destiny we do know was an armed
robber (Luke 23:39-43). He is in Paradise; the fate of his
victim(s) is unknown.
Salvation isn't about justice (if it were, nobody would be
saved). It's all about mercy. Being a murderer doesn't
disqualify you from eternal life; being a murder victim doesn't
guarantee you eternal life. It's all about your relationship
with God: are you a rebel at the time of your death, or are you
repentant?
Ezekiel 18 is worth reading.
PS We don't know what happens to very young/aborted babies.
#Post#: 601--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 27, 2014, 6:26 am
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--- Quote from: Ivor1 link ---
>
> to what degree of punishment? And his lord was wroth, and
delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was
due unto him. We know of debtors prisons for what they were in
Victorian times how was it in bible times if a debtor did not
honour his debt? .. were they burned day and night?
>
--- End Quote ---
You are supposed to tell us what you think instead of trying to
get us to go down rabbit trails. Can you make a direct answer
or not?
#Post#: 602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: December 27, 2014, 6:38 am
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--- Quote from: Deborah link ---
>
> The one person whose eternal destiny we do know was an armed
robber (Luke 23:39-43).
--- End Quote ---
I wouldn't say that. I think we can be confident that the 11
Apostles are safe and sound.
--- Quote ---
> He is in Paradise; the fate of his victim(s) is unknown.
--- End Quote ---
Again, I don't know this. I know he went to Paradise that same
day; but does that mean he's still there? He could have moved
up to Heaven by now for all I know.
--- Quote ---
> Salvation isn't about justice (if it were, nobody would be
saved).
--- End Quote ---
Oh? I can produce at least ten Scriptures that say we will be
judged according to our works, deeds and words. I've
researched it. I couldn't find any Scripture that said
otherwise.
--- Quote ---
> It's all about mercy.
--- End Quote ---
Mercy is a two way street however according to Jesus. The
passage Ivor cited shows that. If we fail to forgive others,
God may put our sins back on the books and hold us accountable
for all our bad deeds.
--- Quote ---
> Being a murderer doesn't disqualify you from eternal life;
being a murder victim doesn't guarantee you eternal life. It's
all about your relationship with God: are you a rebel at the
time of your death, or are you repentant?
--- End Quote ---
That's where the question comes in. If I kill someone I know
is a sinner, can my action send him to hell? If I had allowed
him to live, perhaps he would have come to repentance; but my
act of murder denies him any further chances. Yet, it seems to
me as if you're saying I could still repent and be saved after
sending him to hell?
--- Quote ---
> Ezekiel 18 is worth reading.
>
> PS We don't know what happens to very young/aborted babies.
>
--- End Quote ---
I think Ezekiel 18 is a fairly good source to answer that. God
does not punish the innocent for the sins of anyone else. If
we believe the other Scriptures which say we will all be judged
by our deeds, we cannot believe babies would be punished if
they never did anything.
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