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#Post#: 593--------------------------------------------------
Can this be right?
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2014, 8:25 pm
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Two sinners get drunk in a bar; and they get into fight and
Joe kills Bill. Some people say Bill will go to hell and burn
eternally. The story goes on. Joe is caught and put on trial,
found guilty and executed; but before he dies a chaplain
converts him to Christianity. Some people will say that Joe
will to Heaven and spend eternity there while Joe continues to
burn in hell.
Can that be right? I can't see how it could be. How could it
be right that the murderer would get more chances at salvation
than his victim?
#Post#: 594--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2014, 9:08 pm
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Consider a different case. Many people believe that babies
automatically go to Heaven if they die. If that is true, why
wouldn't abortion or killing babies be doing them a favor? Why
let them grow up and risk becoming sinners who will burn in
hell? Again, something seems wrong with the picture to me.
Even worse is the idea that babies who die would go to hell
eternally.
#Post#: 595--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Alfie Date: December 26, 2014, 9:34 pm
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right; something seems wrong
what is wrong is that the either or of the op or the either or
of post one ;
thou pick you side; and think which one sounds right
all four choices are not in line with the gospel story
babies, innocent --- it doesn't say that
murderers go to heaven --- not only doesn't say that but in each
case we are talking of the old man ; in which never goes to
heaven murder or not
Abel the first murder victim--- doesn't go or not go to heaven
based upon his victim status
so; no matter how good any of these sound
none of these scenarios are the bible story
#Post#: 596--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 26, 2014, 10:04 pm
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We could also consider what is meant by heaven and hell, is hell
the same as Dantes inferno painting.. or not?
#Post#: 597--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2014, 10:13 pm
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[quote author=Patrick link=topic=49.msg595#msg595
date=1419651276]
right; something seems wrong
what is wrong is that the either or of the op or the either or
of post one ;
thou pick you side; and think which one sounds right
all four choices are not in line with the gospel story [/quote]
So what is the gospel -- the "good news" story? That aborted
babies go to hell?
[quote]babies, innocent --- it doesn't say that [/quote]
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little
ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always
behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
[quote]murderers go to heaven --- not only doesn't say that but
in each case we are talking of the old man ; in which never goes
to heaven murder or not [/quote]Sorry is there a word missing
in your sentence?
[quote]Abel the first murder victim--- doesn't go or not go to
heaven based upon his victim status[/quote]
I was asking if murder victims went to hell eternally based on
their victim status. Could I make sure someone went to hell by
killing him? Do I have that power?
[quote]so; no matter how good any of these sound
none of these scenarios are the bible story
[/quote]So what are you saying? Anyone can get to Heaven by
saying, "Lord, Lord," to Jesus? Is it that simple? Do you
think that's an easy ticket to Heaven? I realize everyone
wants a free lunch, but do you really think it's that easy? By
your way of looking at things, will you go to Heaven while
babies fry eternally in hell?
#Post#: 598--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2014, 10:14 pm
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[quote author=Ivor1 link=topic=49.msg596#msg596 date=1419653095]
We could also consider what is meant by heaven and hell, is hell
the same as Dantes inferno painting.. or not?
[/quote]Let's just say a place of punishment.
#Post#: 599--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 27, 2014, 3:11 am
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to what degree of punishment? And his lord was wroth, and
delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was
due unto him. We know of debtors prisons for what they were in
Victorian times how was it in bible times if a debtor did not
honour his debt? .. were they burned day and night?
#Post#: 600--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Deborah Date: December 27, 2014, 6:14 am
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The one person whose eternal destiny we do know was an armed
robber (Luke 23:39-43). He is in Paradise; the fate of his
victim(s) is unknown.
Salvation isn't about justice (if it were, nobody would be
saved). It's all about mercy. Being a murderer doesn't
disqualify you from eternal life; being a murder victim doesn't
guarantee you eternal life. It's all about your relationship
with God: are you a rebel at the time of your death, or are you
repentant?
Ezekiel 18 is worth reading.
PS We don't know what happens to very young/aborted babies.
#Post#: 601--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Kerry Date: December 27, 2014, 6:26 am
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[quote author=Ivor1 link=topic=49.msg599#msg599 date=1419671498]
to what degree of punishment? And his lord was wroth, and
delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was
due unto him. We know of debtors prisons for what they were in
Victorian times how was it in bible times if a debtor did not
honour his debt? .. were they burned day and night?
[/quote]You are supposed to tell us what you think instead of
trying to get us to go down rabbit trails. Can you make a
direct answer or not?
#Post#: 602--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can this be right?
By: Kerry Date: December 27, 2014, 6:38 am
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[quote author=Deborah link=topic=49.msg600#msg600
date=1419682481]
The one person whose eternal destiny we do know was an armed
robber (Luke 23:39-43). [/quote]I wouldn't say that. I think we
can be confident that the 11 Apostles are safe and sound.
[quote]He is in Paradise; the fate of his victim(s) is
unknown.[/quote]Again, I don't know this. I know he went to
Paradise that same day; but does that mean he's still there? He
could have moved up to Heaven by now for all I know.
[quote]Salvation isn't about justice (if it were, nobody would
be saved).[/quote]Oh? I can produce at least ten Scriptures
that say we will be judged according to our works, deeds and
words. I've researched it. I couldn't find any Scripture that
said otherwise.
[quote]It's all about mercy.[/quote]Mercy is a two way street
however according to Jesus. The passage Ivor cited shows that.
If we fail to forgive others, God may put our sins back on the
books and hold us accountable for all our bad deeds.
[quote]Being a murderer doesn't disqualify you from eternal
life; being a murder victim doesn't guarantee you eternal life.
It's all about your relationship with God: are you a rebel at
the time of your death, or are you repentant?[/quote]That's
where the question comes in. If I kill someone I know is a
sinner, can my action send him to hell? If I had allowed him
to live, perhaps he would have come to repentance; but my act of
murder denies him any further chances. Yet, it seems to me as
if you're saying I could still repent and be saved after sending
him to hell?
[quote]Ezekiel 18 is worth reading.
PS We don't know what happens to very young/aborted babies.
[/quote]I think Ezekiel 18 is a fairly good source to answer
that. God does not punish the innocent for the sins of anyone
else. If we believe the other Scriptures which say we will all
be judged by our deeds, we cannot believe babies would be
punished if they never did anything.
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