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#Post#: 588--------------------------------------------------
Heresy
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: December 24, 2014, 11:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I wrote the following a few years ago. Perhaps some here will
remember it and would want to add to it or subtract from it or
otherwise comment upon it.
Who is a heretic and what is heresy?
People use the word heretic perhaps too lightly in reference to
others who do not fit their own take or description or
revelation of a follower of Christ.
Different people will apply the word in accord with their own
beliefs using their own definition. That may be OK for a group
of people who believe essentially the same doctrines and/or use
the same definitions, but with other people or within an
assorted group such as we have here on a supposedly open
Internet forum perhaps better understanding of what is meant is
needed each time we say "heresy" or "heretic".
Personally, I try to avoid using the word or any of its
derivatives, because it has negative connotations in any case
and for every idle word used we may be condemned, not by man,
but by God's Word.
"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou
shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37
For me, a heretic is one who intentionally goes against what he
person knows or believes to be God's Way.
We can say that the Bible is our rulebook, but as we know some
such as the Mormons use other books, and some such as the
Catholics use things that may not be spelled out in the Bible,
or even have other books [the apocrypha] within the Bible. This
would make it quite difficult for us to all to agree that
someone is a heretic in accord with everyone's rulebook. Even of
those who use exactly the same written rules will frequently
disagree on what some written words mean. It would, of course,
be nice if all who claim to be Christian would agree on which
books or traditions or definitions to use, but therein lies a
big part of the problem. We cannot!
Paul makes it clear in the following verse that to some he was
considered a heretic because he was a follower of the way of
Jesus:
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they
call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all
things which are written in the law and in the prophets" Acts
24:14
Would we all agree that Paul after meeting Jesus on the road to
Damascus was always a heretic? Probably not!
[I’m in a discussion now with a Muslim student of the Bible who
says that Paul’s essential (most of the New Testament) writings
are heresy.]
Yet, both Peter and Paul use the word in other places as
something, which is opposed to the Truth, which they support [I
Cor 11:19, Gal 5:20, II Peter 2:1].
Maybe all of us should be careful about calling anyone a heretic
or accusing anyone of heresy.
Maybe when Jesus calls some hypocrites, could He have used the
word “heretics” for them with the same meaning?
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in
yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour
widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore
ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass
sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make
him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt
23:13-15
Can we not do what Jesus did? It would seem to me that we could
do that without putting ourselves in condemnation, ONLY IF, we
knew as much as He knew about the ones we were calling such a
name.
These are simply some of my thoughts on the subject. Maybe
others have some other thoughts to help us all to understand
better where we are and more importantly where we should be with
God.
#Post#: 589--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heresy
DIR By: Ivor1
Date: December 24, 2014, 12:43 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I've had the word used against me with the term backslider etc
because i won't do some church like they do. Don't worry about
offending someone with the word, like myself they will have
heard it many times before
#Post#: 590--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heresy
DIR By: Alfie
Date: December 24, 2014, 1:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I wrote the following a few years ago. Perhaps some here will
remember it and would want to add to it or subtract from it or
otherwise comment upon it.
Who is a heretic and what is heresy?
I have often wanted to write on this;
But felt it would never be seen in the light I intended
I am grateful to you for bring the subject up
People use the word heretic perhaps too lightly in reference to
others who do not fit their own take or description or
revelation of a follower of Christ.
Yes indeed!
Thou most can admit, that they don’t know it all, these same
people condemn the very idea of looking at an issue in a way
that is different than they were taught, even if what is being
looked at is talked about in a way with bible verses and issues
to shown an “and” to what is being by the verse in question.
Different people will apply the word in accord with their own
{taught} beliefs using their own definition. That may be OK for
a group of people who believe essentially the same doctrines
and/or use the same definitions, but with other people or within
an assorted group such as we have here on a supposedly open
Internet forum perhaps better understanding of what is meant is
needed each time we say "heresy" or "heretic".
Or worse; the words “heresy” are only used because they were
heard when someone else said it. The person now saying it (I
doubt) has done the work to have earned the right to say it.
Personally, I try to avoid using the word or any of its
derivatives, because it has negative connotations in any case
and for every idle word used we may be condemned, not by man,
but by God's Word.
"But I say unto you, that every idle word that men shall speak,
they shall give account thereof in the Day of Judgment.
For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou
shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37
For me, a heretic is one who intentionally goes against what he
person knows or believes to be God's Way.
We can say that the Bible is our rulebook, but as we know some
such as the Mormons use other books, and some such as the
Catholics use things that may not be spelled out in the Bible,
or even have other books [the Apocrypha] within the Bible.
I am not sure “they” have the bible story (in depth) and now we
have other books to be taught from? Hey, I like the other books
but to me these other books “must”
Fill in parts of the bible story, or what good are they? It all
goes back to the bible story.
This would make it quite difficult for us to all to agree that
someone is a heretic in accord with everyone's rulebook. Even of
those who use exactly the same written rules will frequently
disagree on what some written words mean.
It would, of course, be nice if all who claim to be Christian
would agree on which books or traditions or definitions to use,{
or better yet; show how these points fit into the bible story}
but therein lies a big part of the problem.{We cannot!; and if
we cannot ; what is the big deal ? }
Paul makes it clear in the following verse that to some he was
considered a heretic because he was a follower of the way of
Jesus:
"But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they
call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all
things which are written in the law and in the prophets" Acts
24:14
Would we all agree that Paul after meeting Jesus on the road to
Damascus was always a heretic? Probably not!
And yet, depending on your view of Paul and those who were
saying he was a heretic; isn’t it to be judged on what he said
as opposed to who said it?
[I’m in a discussion now with a Muslim student of the Bible who
says that Paul’s essential (most of the New Testament) writings
are heresy.]
Yet, both Peter and Paul use the word in other places as
something, which is opposed to the Truth, which they support [I
Cor 11:19, Gal 5:20, II Peter 2:1].
Maybe all of us should be careful about calling anyone a heretic
or accusing anyone of heresy.
One of the early church fathers was said to be very insightful;
and later the same person was said to be a heretic. His name was
Origen. Isn’t it possible that he was both insightful and wrong
at different times?
If I was a man, I would be subject to mistakes, but if I were a
god, I would make no mistakes. Well guess what
I am a man, subject to mistakes and still learning; just like
everyone else.
Not only mistakes, but things said in the beginning may become
more precise as the problem is worked. Does anyone think Paul
learned anything as time went on?
Maybe when Jesus calls some hypocrites, could He have used the
word “heretics” for them with the same meaning?
"But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye
shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in
yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour
widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore
ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass
sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make
him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves." Matt
23:13-15
Can we not do what Jesus did? It would seem to me that we could
do that without putting ourselves in condemnation, ONLY IF, we
knew as much as He knew about the ones we were calling such a
name.
These are simply some of my thoughts on the subject. Maybe
others have some other thoughts to help us all to understand
better where we are and more importantly where we should be with
God.
If we don’t really understand the parable (or just have it
wrong) and then sermonize it ; will the sermon be of any value?
Now for the heretic caller; who says you know what is right? Do
you have the gospel story and can explain it so that you can
show why the statement of that person you called a heretic is
wrong (and being wrong if they are ; are they wrong , still
learning, or just different than you). I am not saying they are
right; but I do ask if you can show this to be true by more than
just disagreement?
Imo; don’t say heretic;
Instead show the truth
Does it matter who is the speaker
Or is it not more important to judge what is being said?
#Post#: 591--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heresy
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: December 24, 2014, 9:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote ---
> I've had the word used against me with the term backslider etc
because i won't do some church like they do. Don't worry about
offending someone with the word, like myself they will have
heard it many times before
--- End Quote ---
Our flesh frequently wants to worry, but as you say it is one of
those things to be avoided where possible. Sometimes avoidance
may be impossible because of what is at stake.
#Post#: 592--------------------------------------------------
Re: Heresy
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: December 24, 2014, 10:07 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Patrick link ---
>
> I have often wanted to write on this;
> But felt it would never be seen in the light I intended
> I am grateful to you for bring the subject up
--- End Quote ---
My pleasure old friend!
--- Quote ---
> Thou most can admit, that they don’t know it all, these same
people condemn the very idea of looking at an issue in a way
that is different than they were taught, even if what is being
looked at is talked about in a way with bible verses and issues
to shown an “and” to what is being by the verse in question.
--- End Quote ---
Logic sometimes has little to do with what is truth, but perhaps
at other times logic will seem to be very necessary.
--- Quote ---
> Amadeus: Different people will apply the word in accord with
their own {taught} beliefs using their own definition. That may
be OK for a group of people who believe essentially the same
doctrines and/or use the same definitions, but with other people
or within an assorted group such as we have here on a supposedly
open Internet forum perhaps better understanding of what is
meant is needed each time we say "heresy" or "heretic".
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Patrick:
> Or worse; the words “heresy” are only used because they were
heard when someone else said it. The person now saying it (I
doubt) has done the work to have earned the right to say it.
--- End Quote ---
While I believe that I understand your meaning, perhaps only God
has the "right", but then again sometimes perhaps God is
speaking through a person. Does a person earn the right by
anything other than really knowing what God thinks about it?
--- Quote ---
> I am not sure “they” have the bible story (in depth) and now
we have other books to be taught from? Hey, I like the other
books but to me these other books “must”
> Fill in parts of the bible story, or what good are they? It
all goes back to the bible story.
--- End Quote ---
Other books would be like other people for they were written
(usually) by other people. Can we learn anything about the
things of God from other people? I certainly have.
--- Quote ---
> Amadeus: It would, of course, be nice if all who claim to be
Christian would agree on which books or traditions or
definitions to use
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Patrick: { or better yet; show how these points fit into the
bible story} but therein lies a big part of the problem.{We
cannot!; and if we cannot ; what is the big deal ? }
--- End Quote ---
--- Quote ---
> Patrick: And yet, depending on your view of Paul and those who
were saying he was a heretic; isn’t it to be judged on what he
said as opposed to who said it?
--- End Quote ---
I hesitate to judge unless I am certain of my basis. Frequently
being uncertain I try to remain quiet or at least if I open my
mouth I will endeavor not to mention something I believe will
unnecessarily offend someone. What is necessary?
--- Quote ---
> One of the early church fathers was said to be very
insightful; and later the same person was said to be a heretic.
His name was Origen. Isn’t it possible that he was both
insightful and wrong at different times?
>
> If I was a man, I would be subject to mistakes, but if I were
a god, I would make no mistakes. Well guess what
> I am a man, subject to mistakes and still learning; just like
everyone else.
>
> Not only mistakes, but things said in the beginning may become
more precise as the problem is worked. Does anyone think Paul
learned anything as time went on?
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, Paul learned. All of us need to be learning, but what is it
that we should be learning according to God?
--- Quote ---
> [color=blue]If we don’t really understand the parable (or just
have it wrong) and then sermonize it ; will the sermon be of any
value?
--- End Quote ---
Yes, I have heard sermons over the years that were sifted during
the passage of time sorting out those things that did not seem
to fit and leaving alone those that seemed to fit. Hopefully,
within me they have been sorted more in the right direction
according to God than otherwise.
--- Quote ---
> Imo; don’t say heretic;
--- End Quote ---
Yes...
--- Quote ---
> Patrick: Instead show the truth
--- End Quote ---
Yes, if we know it. Sometimes we believe that we know it and in
speaking we lie through ignorance.
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