DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 552--------------------------------------------------
End of the Age
By: Kerry Date: December 21, 2014, 1:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Did Jesus return? Did the world end? Are these passages true?
[B]Matthew 10:23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee
ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have
gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.
Luke 9:27 But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing
here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom
of God.
Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his
Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man
according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which
shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in
his kingdom.[/B]
So did he come as promised? Many people do not think he did;
but I say if he did not, then why should we believe anything
else?
Other passages are a little more ambiguous.
[B]Matthew 26:63 But Jesus held his peace, And the high priest
answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God,
that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto
you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right
hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.[/B]
You could argue that the High Priest would be resurrected to see
Jesus sitting on the right hand of power. Some may argue that;
but I say if the first three key verses are true, the High
Priest would see this before he died.
Now consider the prophecy of Joel. Many people include that
prophecy in their interpretation of how future events will
unfold. There is a major problem with that if Acts is true:
[B]Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up
his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that
dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my
words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but
the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;
17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will
pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your
daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams:
18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in
those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the
earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into
blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the
name of the Lord shall be saved.
[/B]
Peter said the prophecy was being fulfilled as he spoke! How is
it then that people believe it wasn't but will be in the future?
Peter is saying they are in the "last days." Let us turn now
to another passage often interpreted as an admonition to attend
church.
[B]Hebrews 10:24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto
love and to good works:
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the
manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the
more, as ye see the day approaching.[/B]
I would say he meant coming together spiritually to form the
ecclesia, the church, the Spiritual Body of Christ. Just as
those who entered the ark were saved, so too would only those
who entered the Body of Christ would be saved at the end of the
world-age. This was particularly important for Jews since the
Temple Age was about to end. Even if you disagree with me on
that, we see that the author says not to neglect coming together
particularly as they saw the day approaching.
Then there is the oft cited passage from Matthew which people
interpret to be about future events; but they ignore the
introduction. Jesus' remarks begin when he tells his disciples
not one stone will be left on top of another of the Temple.
They ask when that will be. What signs should they expect
first?
[B]Matthew 24:24 And Jesus went out, and departed from the
temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the
buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily
I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon
another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came
unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the
world?[/B]
He then cites several things and then says:
[B]34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass,
till all these things be fulfilled.[/B]
Yet people cannot believe it. Part of the problem may be
misunderstanding the prophecy of Daniel which is mentioned in
that chapter. People are still expecting that to be fulfilled.
The Jews will tell you it was already fulfilled.
Then we come to Revelation which begins with a reminder that the
things in the book would come to pass shortly.
[B]Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave
unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his
servant John:[/B]
It ends similarly:
[B]22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come
quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.[/B]
I also ask if Paul was lying? Did everyone at the church of
Corinth "sleep" without being changed?
[B]Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.[/B]
He was writing to them not to us. If it is a true statement, it
should be true for them; and if it was true for them, perhaps it
could be true also for us; but if it was not true for them, why
bother with it?
Other passages speak of the "last days." Some could be read
more than one way; but I do not know how you dodge Hebrews 1:2
which says the Son was speaking to them in "these last days."
[B]2 Timothy 3:1 This know also, that in the last days perilous
times shall come.
Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made
the worlds;
James 5:3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them
shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it
were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
2 Peter 3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the
last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,[/B]
Questions? I know it's an extraordinary claim; but surely the
Scriptures teach the end of the age was fast approaching and
Jesus was about to return soon. My question for people is if
they have the right "picture" in their heads of what the end of
the world and the second return of Jesus mean. It is not
something you should expect to see with the physical eye.
[B]Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when
the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The
kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold,
the kingdom of God is within you.[/B]
Paul said:
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of
rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus
Christ at his coming?
#Post#: 564--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Kerry Date: December 22, 2014, 10:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Do people believe these Scriptures or not?
#Post#: 565--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Ivor1 Date: December 23, 2014, 1:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
most believe all the scriptures, How many think Jesus is not
going to return or has already returned I haven't a clue.
The Holy Spirit that dwells within me says amen to many things
my brothers and sisters preach for all those with an indwelling
of the Holy Spirit have a relationship with each other and
identify each other by their testimony in Christ. Thats just how
it is and how we are related to each other through Christ!.
I'd be really interested in how many say amen to the thoughts
that Christ's return has come and gone and we are all waiting in
vain
#Post#: 573--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: clark thompson Date: December 23, 2014, 8:58 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Jesus will return and bring the end to the age of the world,
this has not yet happened.
#Post#: 575--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Helen Date: December 23, 2014, 10:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I think the thing is, that we believe the bible 'by faith' not
by the understanding.
I don't have to understand every jot and tittle to believe
it...neither does it drive me mad if I don't understand it
fully. That is the beauty of it. If God revealed everything as
soon as we came to Him...the journey would be very boring!
Little by little...here and there, now and again He opens the
eyes and shows something new. This is what keeps bible reading
fresh.
Some things that Jesus spoke have already happened, something
have not. God is a NOW God, it has both happened, and not yet.
God does not dwell in Time..Jesus 'lived in the Spirit.' He
said that everything He spoke was Spirit and life.
We have not yet seen the fulfillment of everything He spoke. He
spoke mysteries.
" 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how
shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no
man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." When He
spoke that His feet were still on the earth.
Personally I believe He is 'in heaven' and is also with us.
I do not believe that He has come in His fullness yet. We are
not fully at the end of the age. I see no conflict in the verses
that you quoted as you seem to have.
#Post#: 580--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Kerry Date: December 23, 2014, 7:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Ivor1 link=topic=45.msg565#msg565 date=1419320426]
most believe all the scriptures, How many think Jesus is not
going to return or has already returned I haven't a clue.
[/quote]Who cares what other people think? The question is if
you believe the Scriptures.
[quote]The Holy Spirit that dwells within me says amen to many
things my brothers and sisters preach for all those with an
indwelling of the Holy Spirit have a relationship with each
other and identify each other by their testimony in Christ.
Thats just how it is and how we are related to each other
through Christ!.[/quote]
My Bible tells me that often the majority is wrong. Every five
years or so, we see people thinking the Rapture is right around
the corner. I suppose they all thought they were being guided
by the Spirit. I suppose too that the thousands of
denominations also believe they are all being led by the Spirit.
All you're telling us by this statement is that you're a
conformist. You follow a tradition of men who allege they are
guided by the Spirit.
[quote]I'd be really interested in how many say amen to the
thoughts that Christ's return has come and gone and we are all
waiting in vain[/quote]
You are jumping to conclusions. You are not being logical. I
did not say Jesus returned them and will never return again so
people are waiting in vain. I said nothing even remotely like
that.
What I will say is if Paul was lying to the people he told Jesus
would appear to, then we probably shouldn't believe Jesus could
appear to us. If on the other hand, Jesus did return for those
people, then it is reasonable to think he may return for us too.
The question for some people may be if Jesus has appeared for
even the first time, let alone the second.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of
many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second
time without sin unto salvation.
It was true then, and it is true now.
#Post#: 581--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Kerry Date: December 23, 2014, 7:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=clark thompson link=topic=45.msg573#msg573
date=1419346731]
Jesus will return and bring the end to the age of the world,
this has not yet happened.
[/quote]Did you read the opening post? If what you say is
true, then Jesus and the Apostles were liars.
#Post#: 582--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Kerry Date: December 23, 2014, 7:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=45.msg575#msg575
date=1419351404]Some things that Jesus spoke have already
happened, something have not. God is a NOW God, it has both
happened, and not yet.
God does not dwell in Time..Jesus 'lived in the Spirit.' He
said that everything He spoke was Spirit and life.
We have not yet seen the fulfillment of everything He spoke. He
spoke mysteries.
" 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how
shall ye believe , if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no
man hath ascended up to heaven, but He that came down from
heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven." When He
spoke that His feet were still on the earth.
Personally I believe He is 'in heaven' and is also with
us.[/quote]
Yes, he was in both places at the same time. Similarly, if
someone is "caught up in the air", he too is eternally with the
Lord. He is both on the earth and in Heaven at the same time.
Those who have been "raised up" do in fact sit in heavenly
places.
Ephesians 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit
together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
This is more than a mere metaphor.
[quote]I do not believe that He has come in His fullness
yet.[/quote]
Not for everyone, that's for sure.
[quote]We are not fully at the end of the age.[/quote]Not the
current world age; but the "age" of animals sacrifices and
worship in the Temple is definitely over.
[quote]I see no conflict in the verses that you quoted as you
seem to have. [/quote]
You have a conflict if you believe the end of that world-age did
not come. That world-age, the fourth, is done with. We are
in a different world-age now, the sixth.
#Post#: 583--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Helen Date: December 23, 2014, 7:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote] That world-age, the fourth, is done with. We are in a
different world-age now, the sixth.
[/quote]
As I ( think) I wrote somewhere...that I was a dyed in the wool
person of 'a thousand years as a day, and a day as a thousand
years'...until we zipped passsed 2007 and there I was left
wondering what was what with God's timing!! Obviously I ahd not
got it.
You say we are "in the sixth". Q Still at the end of the sixth
and almost at the seventh? or what?
How do you see it.
#Post#: 587--------------------------------------------------
Re: End of the Age
By: Kerry Date: December 24, 2014, 6:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Helen link=topic=45.msg583#msg583 date=1419385053]
As I ( think) I wrote somewhere...that I was a dyed in the wool
person of 'a thousand years as a day, and a day as a thousand
years'...until we zipped passsed 2007 and there I was left
wondering what was what with God's timing!! Obviously I ahd not
got it.
You say we are "in the sixth". Q Still at the end of the sixth
and almost at the seventh? or what?
How do you see it.[/quote]
The Jewish calendar is not reliable on this point since it was
tinkered with to fool people about Daniel's prophecy. Some say
it's missing 240 years
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_years_%28Jewish_calendar%29.<br
/>
If it's missing 240 years, that would make the current year
5775 + 240 or 6115. That's impossible if you ask me. The
Messianic Age could begin anytime before the year 6000 but not
after. If it's missing only 200 years, it would be the year
5975. That would mean the Messianic Age would have to begin in
25 years or sooner. The problem with the Jewish calendar
seems unsolvable. I don't think it can be discerned that way.
What seems clear to me is that the destruction of the Temple in
70 AD was sometime close to the end of the 4th Age. The
outpouring of the Spirit in the Upper Room would also have been
towards the end of that age.
What we may all live to see is the end of the Catholic system in
Rome. It may not be the end of it altogether; but I expect the
destruction prophesied by St. Malachy. That system has played
itself out. Indeed Christianity has worn out as a system just
as the Jewish system wore out.
I also expect to see other churches under the gun. There is
nothing like oppression and persecution to bring people to their
senses. I expect a new system of churches to emerge where
Methodists and Catholics, Quakers and Bapists, can sit down
together without fighting each other. If it takes persecution
from the outside to unify Christianity, so be it. I believe
we're already seeing this begin. The dogmas that divide us
will be brought down.
*****************************************************