DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 3677--------------------------------------------------
Jael and Sisera
By: Gaffer Date: January 21, 2016, 7:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
What happened in the story about Jael and Sisera? Did they have
sex? Did Sisera force himself on her?
Let me cite the passage in case you want to read it again:
Judges 4:15 And the LORD discomfited Sisera, and all his
chariots, and all his host, with the edge of the sword before
Barak; so that Sisera lighted down off his chariot, and fled
away on his feet.
16 But Barak pursued after the chariots, and after the host,
unto Harosheth of the Gentiles: and all the host of Sisera fell
upon the edge of the sword; and there was not a man left.
17 Howbeit Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the
wife of Heber the Kenite: for there was peace between Jabin the
king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite.
18 And Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said unto him, Turn in,
my lord, turn in to me; fear not. And when he had turned in unto
her into the tent, she covered him with a mantle.
19 And he said unto her, Give me, I pray thee, a little water to
drink; for I am thirsty. And she opened a bottle of milk, and
gave him drink, and covered him.
20 Again he said unto her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it
shall be, when any man doth come and enquire of thee, and say,
Is there any man here? that thou shalt say, No.
21 Then Jael Heber's wife took a nail of the tent, and took an
hammer in her hand, and went softly unto him, and smote the nail
into his temples, and fastened it into the ground: for he was
fast asleep and weary. So he died.
22 And, behold, as Barak pursued Sisera, Jael came out to meet
him, and said unto him, Come, and I will shew thee the man whom
thou seekest. And when he came into her tent, behold, Sisera lay
dead, and the nail was in his temples.
Another question: Why did she give him milk to drink when he
asked for water?
#Post#: 3681--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jael and Sisera
By: bradley Date: January 21, 2016, 9:23 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As to r*ape, it doesnt say it, so I woudnt know. For the milk,
its easier to add something, to make someone more groggy after
drinking it. It can be seen and tasted more in water.
#Post#: 3682--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jael and Sisera
By: Piper Date: January 21, 2016, 9:50 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The version you gave in the OP sounds as though Jael might have
used sex to trick Sisera into trusting her, helping her sooth
him into sleep where he would be vulnerable and easy to kill
with minimal risk to herself.
Other versions sound more like she simply offered him kindness,
drink, and safe harbor.
[quote]
And Ja'el came out to meet Sis'era, and said to him, “Turn
aside, my lord, turn aside to me; have no fear.” So he turned
aside to her into the tent, and she covered him with a
rug.[/quote]
As Brad said, the milk may have hidden a sedative.
#Post#: 3684--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jael and Sisera
By: Deborah Date: January 21, 2016, 3:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
You can read into the story anything you want - doesn't mean
that it was actually there to start with.
If they did indeed have sex, it doesn't sound as though Sisera
forced himself on Jael (and it would have been risking his life,
just at the time when he needed an ally).
My personal take on this story is very different:
HTML https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/tales-of-the-unexpected-beware-of-the-women/
#Post#: 3685--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jael and Sisera
By: Kerry Date: January 23, 2016, 5:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bradley link=topic=415.msg3681#msg3681
date=1453389809]
As to r*ape, it doesnt say it, so I woudnt know. For the milk,
its easier to add something, to make someone more groggy after
drinking it. It can be seen and tasted more in water.
[/quote]Milk by itself can also be used to make someone sleepy.
I read one commentary that said this was why Jael gave him milk
instead of water.
#Post#: 3686--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jael and Sisera
By: Kerry Date: January 23, 2016, 5:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=415.msg3682#msg3682
date=1453391438]
The version you gave in the OP sounds as though Jael might have
used sex to trick Sisera into trusting her, helping her sooth
him into sleep where he would be vulnerable and easy to kill
with minimal risk to herself.
Other versions sound more like she simply offered him kindness,
drink, and safe harbor.
As Brad said, the milk may have hidden a sedative.
[/quote]A clue may be "there was peace between Jabin the king of
Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite." Kililng someone like
that would be almost unthinkable for two reasons. First there
was this "peace" between the two. Second it goes against the
Middle Eastern concept of hospitality. If you invited a guest
into your home, you were expected to take care of him. Indeed
you were expected to defend his life as if it was your own.
The Americans made a big mistake when they demanded the Taliban
turn over Osama bin Laden. The Taliban considered him a
refugee of sorts, like a guest. They couldn't turn him over
just because someone demanded it without offending this concept
of hospitality. So they asked for the evidence. They said if
the Americans had evidence for crimes, they'd turn him over; but
that wasn't good enough for the Americans.
What is odd then about this story is that Jael accepted Sisera
into her house and then killed him! This would make her one of
the lowest types of villains if she did it only to betray him to
Barak. The idea of enticing into sex and then encouraging
him to sleep also would be offensive to Middle Eastern values
about guests.
That leaves me wondering if Sisera was feeling the need to prove
his masculinity after being routed on the battlefield and wanted
to force himself on Jael as a way of proving his masculinity.
When she saw what was up, she didn't resist but played along.
She could even have made him think she enjoyed it so he'd go to
sleep.
#Post#: 3687--------------------------------------------------
Re: Jael and Sisera
By: Kerry Date: January 23, 2016, 6:04 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=415.msg3684#msg3684
date=1453410143]
You can read into the story anything you want - doesn't mean
that it was actually there to start with.
If they did indeed have sex, it doesn't sound as though Sisera
forced himself on Jael (and it would have been risking his life,
just at the time when he needed an ally).
My personal take on this story is very different:
HTML https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/2013/11/13/tales-of-the-unexpected-beware-of-the-women/
[/quote]Let me quote it, underlining the part I find most
interesting:
For Jael also, it had been just an ordinary day, going about her
normal household duties while the menfolk were away hunting or
trading. But then the great Sisera stumbled into the camp,
exhausted (and possibly injured)… and she knew instantly what
she had to do.
Sisera assumed that Jael would adhere to the social conventions.
These nomads would never harm an invited guest, least of all one
who is a well-known friend and ally.
He assumed that she would share her husband’s political and
religious affiliations. Women don’t think for themselves (do
they think at all?).
He assumed that she was the caring, nurturing, feminine type. A
woman’s job is to look decorative, to cook, to keep house … oh,
and to pitch tents…
Sleep well, Sisera.
And so the decisive act, the deed that changes the course of
history in that part of the world, is done not by a warrior on
the battlefield but by a woman in her own home.
She isn't portrayed as a kind of person who would betray the
friend of her husband or who would violate Middle Eastern values
about hospitality. If she was that kind of person, she
wouldn't have dared to go to Barak and tell him what she did;
and she wouldn't have dared to face her husband. That leads me
to think Sisera did force himself on her.
The text itself doesn't explicitly mention sex of any sort; but
there are some words that suggest it.
As for Sisera? He may have figured his life was over anyway and
what he did or didn't do didn't matter. I don't think rational
and "competent" men rape women. I think it's more a crime of
irrational hate.
*****************************************************