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       #Post#: 3667--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Piper Date: January 18, 2016, 6:59 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Oh man, Brad, that is all so terrible!  Gang r*ape is even more
       despicable.  Your poor mom.  And you, caught up in the midst of
       it all.
       Yes, my views were assuming innocence on the part of women, in
       general;  I do know all women are not innocent.  Mostly I wanted
       to show why so many r*ape victims don't report the r*ape.
       The world can be a very bad place.  And it's most awful when
       kids suffer the consequences of adult bad behavior.
       Women really should know some basic self-defense, oft being the
       weaker sex.
       But, yes, there are women who falsely cry r*ape for nefarious
       reasons.  All very sad, when sex is a crime rather than what God
       intended it to be.
       #Post#: 3669--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: bradley Date: January 18, 2016, 7:15 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       I have come to believe that sex without love is mostly darkness.
       I think thats why God wanted marriage before sex, so that they
       would make a pact to love each other and persevere in it before
       getting involved with sex.
       #Post#: 3673--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Kerry Date: January 19, 2016, 5:53 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Piper link=topic=410.msg3653#msg3653
       date=1453140367]
       Kerry, you answer your own question of why a woman might not
       report a r*ape;  let's assume she's innocent; if people will
       speculate wildly on how SHE may be at fault on a Christian
       forum, how much more will they speculate in a courtroom?  What
       character assassination might a defense attorney come up
       with?[/quote]That's not unique to this kind of case. It's true
       in many types of court cases.
       [quote]What if the man is popular and 'well-respected' (even a
       church-goer) and she is not well-known?[/quote]
       Or even her minister?  That's happened.   But  again, I ask how
       wise she was for associating with someone like that?  Some
       churches are cults, more or less, and operate the way gangs do.
       Everyone looks up to the top dog, the "godly" minister, and
       what he says goes.    So tell me, why would anyone be in a
       church like that?    Why would a woman be alone with a man like
       that?
       The women accusing Cosby now had their motives for associating
       with him.  He had influence, they thought, and might help them
       in their careers.    Why this involved dinners at his house when
       his wife wasn't there may have seemed like a mystery, of course;
       but such things should raise red flags.
       At the core of this line of reasoning, we often find women
       thinking associating with popular or powerful men might benefit
       them.     This kind of thinking exists all over the place and
       certainly doesn't always involve sex or sexual attraction or
       flirtations even; but I wonder about this kind of woman to be
       blunt.   Is she willing to flutter her eyelids at a powerful man
       hoping such flirting is going to get her what she wants from him
       . . . without him getting what he might want out of the deal?
       
       [quote]What if bad publicity could cause her to lose her
       job?[/quote]Actually,  bad publicity is not much of a factor, at
       least not officially since we have rape shield laws.     This is
       another strange thing, isn't it?   Women are treated legally
       like children and their names can't be used in the news unless
       they choose to come out themselves.  In other words, women are
       being told, "You're incapable of acting in a  way other
       complainants do, so you can make your accusations anonymously."
       While I understand why this is done, it still tells me
       something is very wrong -- drastically wrong -- when women
       received such preferential treatment because the theory is they
       are too weak to testify and have everyone know who they are the
       way other cases are conducted.
       A woman who lost her job by making a true accusation could sue.
       If she's afraid to say anything, she may keep her job -- but
       what if the guilty party is her boss?   Is that the kind of job
       she wants?
       [quote]What if, he being obviously violent, she is afraid if she
       reports the r*ape he will retaliate with further violence
       against her or her family?[/quote]
       She could buy a gun.  There are also government programs to
       shelter women like this in safe places.   What I will say is
       that if people allow evil to intimidate them, evil will always
       win.   As long as women have this kind of victim mentality,  I
       don't expect much progress.   I would tell her to buy a gun and
       get a court order against him; and if he shows up, shoot him
       first and ask questions later.   Most men like this are really
       bullies -- and bullies are really cowards.   If they were
       confident men, they wouldn't be going around raping women.
       Rape is often more a crime of hate of women than of lust.
       People often think it's about sex; but frequently it's not.
       Appearances are often a bluff.   Did you see the video of the
       captured ISIS fighter crying like a baby?
  HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Nan1YgQyXE
       When men like that have guns, they feel like big men.  They
       think nothing of committing almost any crime.  If other people
       have the guns, they dissolve into tears.
       [quote]
       What if she simply can not bear the thought of ever having to
       see this man again or be in the same room with him? [/quote]If
       she runs from this, she may be running from it the rest of her
       life.   She may feel like a victim the rest of her life.    She
       is basically saying she chooses not to use the power she does
       have.
       [quote]Men don't understand, perhaps, that when a woman is
       r*aped, she often "feels dirty" and there is not enough soap and
       water in the world to feel clean afterwards.  A wire brush used
       all over her body, inside and out,  will not remove the filth
       she feels.[/quote]No, I don't understand this.   She has nothing
       to feel dirty about as far as I'm concerned; and if she feels
       this way, my guess is she needs to talk with other people who
       don't treat her as if she's dirty.   Hurt and violated, yes --
       but dirty no.
       [quote]I don't care what she was or wasn't wearing--and, yes,
       young women are often naive and unwise-- it still does not
       justify a man forcing sex on a woman.  (I've seen beautiful
       junior high girls, little girls just starting to mature, flirt
       with grown men, completely oblivious they are playing with fire;
       they don't yet understand the power of their beauty;  they are
       naive and endanger themselves with strangers.) I also don't care
       if she's had consensual sex with twenty guys, it STILL does not
       justify a r*ape.[/quote]You really don't care what she was
       wearing?   I care about it before a rape occurs.  Women should
       know and accept that the world is not always a nice place.  If
       wearing modest clothes might help prevent crimes,  why not do
       that?
       Do young girls understand the "power" of their beauty?   Ah, to
       a degree they do -- or they're experimenting with it to see how
       much power they have.   I had an underaged girl rub up against
       me in a provocative way -- and her mother and grandparents were
       there.   It was as if they didn't see it happening or didn't
       want to deal with it.   I ask how wise for a young girl (or any
       woman) to think she can wield power over men in this way when
       men are physically more powerful as a rule.
       In  a public place like a bar,  you can see how much power women
       have over men.   Few men will dare approach a woman unless she
       first notices him with a glance and smile.  That's the signal.
       He can feel "safe" to approach her and talk without fearing
       rejection.    Men are horribly afraid of rejection.    The man
       who doesn't play the game like this is almost surely going to be
       rejected and told to move on.  If he doesn't, other men and
       women in the bar will make him move on or leave.
       [quote]We can speculate forever and because no one witnessed
       what happened, it becomes a 'he says' / 'she says' circus, and
       concerted efforts by both sides aim for character assassination.
       Many victims actually DO feel unwarranted guilt.  They might
       think because they wore a sundress or did not wear a bra, or
       because they allowed themselves to be alone with the guy, they
       were "asking for trouble." They torment themselves with 'if only
       I hadn't done this or that', when, in reality, NOTHING justifies
       r*ape!  [/quote]
       I think it would be better to ask such questions before instead
       of after.  Walking in a dark alley also isn't an invitation to
       be raped; but surely a woman who doesn't want to be raped isn't
       going to choose dark alleys to walk on by herself if she can use
       lighted streets or have someone along.    Walking in a dark
       alley is not something you should feel "guilty" about -- but it
       is something you might regret as "unwise."
       If women are confused and say they feel guilt over the type of
       clothes they were wearing rather than saying they did something
       unwise,  it makes me wonder why they are confused and feel that
       way.   What are women's motives when they wear provocative or
       daring outfits?    I can't say I know.
       What should I make of it when delivering pizzas and a woman
       answers the door in an outfit with a  plunging neckline which
       leaves little to the imagination?   If I had sons, I know what
       I'd tell them about women who wear provocative outfits -- leave
       them alone.  Even if you think they're asking for sex, leave
       them alone.   You could wind up facing a rape charge.  Even if
       the sex was consensual, that could happen if her husband or
       boyfriend came home unexpectedly -- or if she thought she could
       pressure you to get money or something to keep quiet.   This
       goes back to your word "expectations."    Men should not assume
       -- it's not safe or wise for them to assume -- that a woman
       wants sex because of the clothes she's wearing.   Boys should be
       taught this in school just as girls should be taught not to
       confuse men with clothes.
       [quote]I did not tell our lawyer about the lewd behavior
       involved in the Tree Service mess.  I was certainly not raped,
       yet still I want to save myself the embarrassment of all the
       unsavory speculation.  Gee, maybe I was dressed too scantily, or
       maybe I flirted, or why did I wander across twelve acres alone
       with a stranger in the first place?  ( Which will never happen
       again.  I learn from my mistakes.  My lawyer actually wanted me
       to get a second estimate from a different Tree Service, but it
       would once again put me in the position of walking around the
       entire property with a stranger.  I will never be put 'in
       charge' of a whole crew of men again, apart from my husband.  No
       way.  If I can't do things myself, it won't get done.  Sad, but
       true.)[/quote]
       Did you contact the other woman who complained about these
       people?  If so, did you ask her if they did weird stuff with her
       too?   It may be important since it's another good reason for
       not wanting them to come back to do the work.  Not only did they
       mess up the job, they also intimidated you.
       You want to spare yourself embarrassment?  Well,  those men
       might also be embarrassed if they knew you'd testify to their
       nastiness in court.     Their wives might be interested too.
       [quote]
       Anyway, more women do not report r*ape than do;  this certainly
       does not mean they are guilty.  Rather, they may wish to avoid
       all the dirty talk and speculation;  all the victim- blaming and
       potential s*lut-shaming is incredibly intimidating, more so if
       you ARE a "good girl." And, generally, these are dangerous men
       we are talking about. Many women live with the pain and anger,
       pretending it didn't happen.  But, it's like a cancer, and it
       can affect every relationship she might have with a man in the
       future.  Many women who have been r*aped can no longer stand to
       be touched, much less have more intimate sexual contact.
       Think of how male promisicuity is generally cheered by society,
       but if it comes out in court that the woman had previous
       multiple partners, then she is labeled a "s*lut.  Ha.  I've
       known many more male-sluts than female.[/quote]
       This is a biological factor at work.   We all know who our
       mothers are.   Who our fathers are is less certain.   Men want
       to know if their children are really their children.  Why
       support them if they're someone else's children?
       Here again, things need to taught in schools.   Men will be
       promiscuous and have sex with many women; but I've known
       promiscuous men who wouldn't have dreamed about marrying the
       women they had sex with.   When they married, they wanted a
       woman who didn't cheat on them.    Girls can be stupid about
       this --  having sex with lots of men isn't a good plan if you
       want someone to marry you.
       [quote]Kevin told me of men he worked with that had the mindset
       that if they took a woman out to dinner a couple times she
       "owed" them sex, and they were angry when refused.  Heck, to my
       understanding "dating" is almost an obsolete term.[/quote]Hey,
       they could have asked beforehand, "If we go to a restaurant,
       will you have sex with me later?"
       What's going on there though?   It's a variation on man
       providing and buying things while the woman puts out sexually.
       Sometimes it can be called "marriage" even.   But some men give
       up after only one time -- and my advice would be to do just that
       if your goal was to get sex in exchange for buying a woman
       dinner.
       But what are the woman's expectations in such situations?   How
       many dinners does a woman expect a man to buy before he gets
       something out of the deal?     My guess is the woman who thinks
       she can wheedle lots and lots of dinners and other things out of
       man in exchange for a few smiles and fluttering eyelids may be
       in danger of being raped.   If there is no discussion about
       what people expect from dating and marriage,  it's a dangerous
       situation.   If there is a discussion and the woman lets the man
       know she's not interested in sex before marriage, this may be a
       plus.  Some men would like that.   Smart men like women who
       aren't slaves to their own sex drives -- who don't feel they
       need to have sex all the time.   Men can trust women like that.
       [quote]I would NOT wish to be single in today's world.  A woman
       is SO much better off on her own than with the wrong man!  (And,
       yes, I realize that can work BOTH ways.)
       Of course, we don't have details in this particular case, but
       the fact IS many innocent women do not report r*ape.  Perhaps
       our society needs to reflect on why this is.
       Women might be ill-advised and may make bad choices and
       mistakes; but r*ape is no mistake; it is an intentional act of
       force.[/quote]Our society is in denial about many things, it
       seems to me.   Take the Bill Clinton mess.  There was a lot of
       he-said, she-said in that.  When he was impeached, the details
       and charges involved were far too many, I thought.   The
       critical charge in my opinion, was that he lied in court.  He
       was a convicted perjurer.   I would have voted to get him out of
       office based on that.  While some of the other things could be
       argued about,  that couldn't be; but his defenders seemed out to
       "protect" the "powerful" man.   They said it was all a
       witchhunt, etc.   And the Senate didn't convict him.
       Well, Juanita Broaddrick still hasn't gone away.   We talk about
       women's reputations?   I think we should also wonder about a
       man's reputation if he is in a hotel with a woman -- and
       especially  if he's married.   I realize a man could be in a
       hotel with a woman and not be guilty of rape; but what is good
       for the goose should be good for the gander too. It's just
       stupid for a man to behave like that.   Any man concerned about
       his reputation should avoid doing things like that.
       1 Thessalonians 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
       Why would Benny Hinn and Paula White do what they did?   They
       must have thought they could get away with it; and maybe they
       did.  They're still both ministers.   People tend to "defend"
       the people they perceive as "leaders."
  HTML http://ivarfjeld.com/2010/08/01/benny-hinn-caught-in-adultery-and-web-of-lies-in-rome/
       
       #Post#: 3674--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Piper Date: January 20, 2016, 11:21 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote]Kerry:  But  again, I ask how wise she was for
       associating with someone like that? [/quote]
       Perhaps not wise, but, then again, many people are great actors
       and are not what they seem.  How many people are on good
       behavior early in a relationship, but later, sometimes even
       after marriage, they morph into someone almost unrecognizable?
       [quote]She could buy a gun.[/quote]
       Yes, but that might not protect her family members.
       [quote]If she runs from this, she may be running from it the
       rest of her life.   She may feel like a victim the rest of her
       life.    She is basically saying she chooses not to use the
       power she does have.[/quote]
       Logically this is true.  Traumatized people do not necessarily
       think logically.  With good council, some women might better
       understand such truth.
       [quote]No, I don't understand this.   She has nothing to feel
       dirty about as far as I'm concerned; and if she feels this way,
       my guess is she needs to talk with other people who don't treat
       her as if she's dirty.   Hurt and violated, yes -- but dirty no.
       [/quote]
       Soap and water can not wash away the memories of his hands and
       body all over her, the whole nasty act, nor can it rid a woman
       of  . . . must I be explicit?  Yuck!  I cringe just thinking of
       it.  Something so extremely intimate, beautiful with someone you
       love, would be the exact gross, disgusting opposite when forced
       upon a woman.  No, it doesn't make her dirty, but she still
       feels dirty.  I understand this.  How do you get rid of every
       trace of him, all over you, every vile trace that makes you want
       to throw up?
       [quote]   I care about it before a rape occurs.  Women should
       know and accept that the world is not always a nice place.  If
       wearing modest clothes might help prevent crimes,  why not do
       that?   [/quote]
       I agree, but what is "modest"?  If Muslim men feel they must
       cover every inch of a woman to avoid their own lust, what is
       modest?  Is a sundress immodest?  Depends upon the company
       you're in, I suppose. And, from a legal POV, I stand by the fact
       that no matter what a woman is or is not wearing, it does not
       justify r*ape.  If it did, then any girl in a bikini on the
       beach could be seen as provoking her own r*ape, and that idea is
       ridiculous.
       [quote]Do young girls understand the "power" of their beauty?
       [/quote]
       Maybe some do, but I'm talking 12, 13 years old, here.  There is
       a big difference between innocent flirtation, which most junior
       high kids engage in among themselves, and the mistake of a young
       girl flirting with grown men who can potentially be a lot more
       dangerous than the boys at school who are simply happy with
       innocent flirting.
       [quote] I ask how wise for a young girl (or any woman) to think
       she can wield power over men in this way when men are physically
       more powerful as a rule.     [/quote]
       Well, yes, exactly.  But, that's what I'm saying, is that a girl
       that young often does not even realize how beautiful she is,
       even in the eyes of much older men, nor does she realize GROWN
       men could be attracted to her in such a way.  And, what
       constitutes flirting, even?  If a girl smiles or laughs at a
       joke, is that flirting?  The girl may not think so, the man
       might.  Main point here is, we must make our daughters aware the
       world is not an entirely safe place.  They need our guidance and
       protection.
       [quote]In  a public place like a bar,  you can see how much
       power women have over men.[/quote]
       I've never been in a bar, except once to collect my cat whom I
       saw wander into the bar that was across the street from our
       house in Iowa.  I was 20 years old, and the disgusting comments
       generated simply by my walking in to get my cat was enough to
       teach me to stay very clear of bars.  And there was not one man
       who stood up to tell the others to back off, just lots of
       laughter.  Baaad memory!  Silly cat.  I guess she was worth it.
       I doubt cats are any safer in bars than lone young women.
       [quote] What are women's motives when they wear provocative or
       daring outfits?   [/quote]
       What's provocative?  If a woman wears a tank top with no bra
       because its 110 degrees is that provocative?  If a man wears no
       shirt whatsoever because its 110 degrees, is THAT provocative?
       I've always hated how men are so stupid about breasts for crying
       out loud.  Did their mothers never wean them, LOL!  However,
       that is how the world is, at least our society, and so we have
       such double standards.  Ask me, some MEN need to wear a bra!  :P
       People, in general are stupid about nudity, because they can't
       control their lustful thoughts and inclinations.  Sad fact on a
       blazing hot day.
       [quote]Hey, they could have asked beforehand, "If we go to a
       restaurant, will you have sex with me later?"    [/quote]  LOL.
       OMG!
       [quote] My guess is the woman who thinks she can wheedle lots
       and lots of dinners and other things out of man in exchange for
       a few smiles and fluttering eyelids may be in danger of being
       raped.
       [/quote]
       I must be terribly old-fashioned.  I believe in dating, courting
       even.  I believe the man should pay, unless there is an obvious
       situation where he can't; helps show he is serious about finding
       time to get to know you, that he's willing to sacrifice a little
       to be with you.   And I believe people should date a good, long
       time before talking marriage.  After awhile, if it's practical,
       yeah, they could split the tab or switch off paying or whatever.
       But initially I think a woman should be treated like a lady.
       And a lady doesn't give a man sex in payment for one, five, or
       ten thousand dinners.  Sex (marriage!) is reserved for the man
       who proves he loves you.  How does he prove that?  That's for
       him to figure out.  Time, listening, shared dreams . . .
       Commitment might have a LOT to do with it.  Old-fashioned
       sentiments, perhaps, but girls and women should respect
       themselves, darn it! Sex gets so many people in trouble.
       Anyway, bottom line is r*ape involves force, and no man has the
       right to force sex on anyone, regardless of circumstances.
       #Post#: 3675--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: bradley Date: January 20, 2016, 7:37 pm
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Regardless of a female's knowingly provacative dress and
       behavior, which oft times bring disaster upon them... it is
       never justified for a man to be a beast.   We were meant to be
       more than that.   But truth be told, it would be wise for all
       women to know, that many men do not desire to be more than a
       beast.
       #Post#: 3676--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Kerry Date: January 21, 2016, 7:26 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=Piper link=topic=410.msg3674#msg3674
       date=1453310496]
       Perhaps not wise, but, then again, many people are great actors
       and are not what they seem.  How many people are on good
       behavior early in a relationship, but later, sometimes even
       after marriage, they morph into someone almost unrecognizable?
       [/quote]
       I think there are usually signs which get ignored, often out of
       the pressure to conform or out of wishful thinking.
       [quote]Yes, but that might not protect her family members.
       [/quote]The best laid plans of mice and men . . . .    Should we
       fail to take action because we aren't guaranteed success?
       I really don't think placating a bully trying to protect our
       family members is a good plan.   Instead it's a sign to him he
       can do as he pleases.
       [quote]Soap and water can not wash away the memories of his
       hands and body all over her, the whole nasty act, nor can it rid
       a woman of  . . . must I be explicit?  Yuck!  I cringe just
       thinking of it.  Something so extremely intimate, beautiful with
       someone you love, would be the exact gross, disgusting opposite
       when forced upon a woman.  No, it doesn't make her dirty, but
       she still feels dirty.  I understand this.  How do you get rid
       of every trace of him, all over you, every vile trace that makes
       you want to throw up?[/quote]
       This feeling is one I associate with "adultery."   A woman can
       get this feeling by voluntarily committing adultery; she can get
       it by being forced into sex; and lastly,  I think it explains
       the passage where Jesus said divorcing a woman forced her to
       commit adultery.   In that society, women had to be married.
       If she was attached to the first husband and he ditched it by
       divorcing her, she'd often have to remarry -- and have sex with
       a man she didn't want to.
       [quote]
       I agree, but what is "modest"? [/quote]I generally think I  know
       it when I see it.   From Wikipedia
  HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I_know_it_when_I_see_it:
       The phrase "I know it when I see it" is a colloquial expression
       by which a speaker attempts to categorize an observable fact or
       event, although the category is subjective or lacks clearly
       defined parameters. The phrase was famously used in 1964 by
       United States Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart to describe
       his threshold test for obscenity in Jacobellis v. Ohio. In
       explaining why the material at issue in the case was not obscene
       under the Roth test, and therefore was protected speech that
       could not be censored, Stewart wrote:
       I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of
       material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand
       description ["hard-core pornography"], and perhaps I could never
       succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it,
       and the motion picture involved in this case is not that.
       [quote]
       If Muslim men feel they must cover every inch of a woman to
       avoid their own lust, what is modest?[/quote]
       You mean the way they do in Saudi Arabia?   Allegedly that's to
       protect women.   Men know what they're like.
       [quote]Is a sundress immodest?  Depends upon the company you're
       in, I suppose.[/quote]Yes, and the culture, and the cut of the
       dress and maybe even the fabric.
       [quote]And, from a legal POV, I stand by the fact that no matter
       what a woman is or is not wearing, it does not justify r*ape.
       If it did, then any girl in a bikini on the beach could be seen
       as provoking her own r*ape, and that idea is ridiculous.
       [/quote]There was a time long ago when women wore lots of
       clothes when taking dips in the ocean.
  HTML https://lisawallerrogers.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/women-wringing-our-swimsuits-ca-1905.png
       
       Maybe some do, but I'm talking 12, 13 years old, here.  There is
       a big difference between innocent flirtation, which most junior
       high kids engage in among themselves, and the mistake of a young
       girl flirting with grown men who can potentially be a lot more
       dangerous than the boys at school who are simply happy with
       innocent flirting.
       [quote]What's provocative?  If a woman wears a tank top with no
       bra because its 110 degrees is that provocative? [/quote]It
       could be.  Some tank tops look hot to me.  Loose clothing is
       best in hot weather and with fabrics like cotton.   I've seen
       tank tops I didn't think were suitable for hot weather; and if
       the fabric is a certain type, the lack of a bra can be
       provocative.
       I'd also say it depends on where she's wearing it.  Out mowing
       her lawn is one thing.  Walking down a street up close to others
       is another thing.   It would also depend on how tight or loose
       it is.   Some tank tops gape a lot.
       [quote]If a man wears no shirt whatsoever because its 110
       degrees, is THAT provocative?  I've always hated how men are so
       stupid about breasts for crying out loud.  Did their mothers
       never wean them, LOL!  However, that is how the world is, at
       least our society, and so we have such double standards.  Ask
       me, some MEN need to wear a bra!  :P People, in general are
       stupid about nudity, because they can't control their lustful
       thoughts and inclinations.  Sad fact on a blazing hot
       day.[/quote]Bras themselves were invented for what reason?   I'd
       say mostly to enhance how women look -- that was the theory.
       They made older women look younger for one thing.    I think
       bras were invented to sexualize women.
       My guess is there are fewer rapes in cultures where women wear
       no tops.   There was a tribe in Africa where missionaries were
       shocked by the women's going topless and they tried to convince
       the chief to get them to wear more clothes.  The chief said he
       feared it would increase unsocial behavior.   I rather think
       that myself.
       Take Saudi Arabia again where the women are covered from head to
       toe except for their eyes.   Crimes against women are high
       there.   Or take the Muslim woman I saw the other day with her
       hair all covered -- you could tell she had a very elaborate
       hairdo under the scarf.  Her theory was that that hairdo was for
       her husband's eyes only; but it drew my attention and made we
       wonder what it looked like.    Clothes are provocative because
       they sexualize what they cover.
       [quote]I must be terribly old-fashioned.  I believe in dating,
       courting even.  I believe the man should pay, unless there is an
       obvious situation where he can't; helps show he is serious about
       finding time to get to know you, that he's willing to sacrifice
       a little to be with you. [/quote]How does the woman show she's
       serious about getting to know the man?   Eat the dinners he
       provides?     I could make the argument that the woman should be
       cooking dinners for the man to show him she's serious about
       things.
       [quote]And I believe people should date a good, long time before
       talking marriage.[/quote]I agree.  About a year sounds right to
       me; and I would also advise people not to marry until they see
       each other under stress.
       [quote]After awhile, if it's practical, yeah, they could split
       the tab or switch off paying or whatever.  But initially I think
       a woman should be treated like a lady.  And a lady doesn't give
       a man sex in payment for one, five, or ten thousand dinners.
       [/quote]Some women will give a man sex without even a dinner.
       That started, I think, with the sexual revolution and women's
       liberation.   The birth control pill was a factor.  Has it
       liberated women?   True, women can engage in sex now without as
       much gossip and disapproval that they used to get; but is that a
       good thing?    I don't think so.
       Young girls today are under a lot of pressure to have sex even
       if they prefer not to.  Boys will go out with them once and if
       they don't get sex on the first date,  that's also the last
       date.   Boys can find girls who will put out.   If a girl wants
       a boyfriend,  the pressure is to have sex in order to hang onto
       him.
       #Post#: 3678--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Piper Date: January 21, 2016, 8:57 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote]Kerry:  I generally think I  know it (modesty) when I see
       it. [/quote]
       Yes, I know what you mean, but it does differ between cultures.
       And, there's a difference between dressing attractively and
       seductively.
       Ha! Love the "swimwear" pic!
       Burn those bras!  Just kidding, yes they do improve appearance
       as we grow older;  why are there no butt-bras?  (Sorry, now I'm
       being silly, although no doubt such a thing exists.)
       [quote]How does the woman show she's serious about getting to
       know the man?   Eat the dinners he provides?  (Sarcasm? :P )   I
       could make the argument that the woman should be cooking dinners
       for the man to show him she's serious about things. (No.  The
       man should be displaying his superb grilling techniques, while
       the woman prepares a salad. 8) ) [/quote]
       Well, of course!  If things are "good", neither partner will be
       doing all the giving.  Both should be hoping to please and show
       love to the other.  Sometimes it shouldn't matter what you're
       doing;  just being together makes you both happy.  Long, long
       ago, Kevin and I used to spend hours just cuddling under a
       blanket by the fireplace.  We talked forever.  About everything.
       It really shouldn't be difficult.
       Nowadays, people tend to stare at electronic devices, rather
       than into each other's eyes. ::)  Everyone has a backlit face!
       LOL. I'm doing it right now.
       #Post#: 3679--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Piper Date: January 21, 2016, 9:17 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       [quote author=bradley link=topic=410.msg3675#msg3675
       date=1453340232]
       Regardless of a female's knowingly provacative dress and
       behavior, which oft times bring disaster upon them... it is
       never justified for a man to be a beast.   We were meant to be
       more than that.   But truth be told, it would be wise for all
       women to know, that many men do not desire to be more than a
       beast.
       [/quote]
       Yes, definitely. Hopefully, our faith and value systems make us
       better people.
       #Post#: 3680--------------------------------------------------
       Re: Love, Wisdom and Power
       By: Piper Date: January 21, 2016, 9:23 am
       ---------------------------------------------------------
       Long ago, we used to go to the zoo, the beach, wildlife parks,
       forest preserves, museums, movies, camping . . .
       Then . . . We got bit by a tick or two. :(
       *****************************************************
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