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#Post#: 3578--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 5, 2016, 8:02 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=403.msg3570#msg3570
date=1452019169]
People have made our faith such a perilous road. God looks upon
the heart, so much may be forgiven, but the
authorities--pastors, ministers, priests-- who are leading so
many astray-- it may be worse for them, I fear.[/quote]Yes, I
think so. I would fear to be some of their shoes.
[quote]I see now the infancy of faith, how I began to seek God,
and I studied, mostly on my own. I learned many good things,
but, how many times did I stumble by reading the wrong things.
The bible itself is a tool for good or evil, because of the way
in which people can form doctrines of their own devising, and
then find the Scriptures to make what seems a solid proof. Not
many will consider doctrine based on the whole of Scripture.
Even fewer are willing to search history and the faith of
Christianity's founding fathers or the faith of the early
saints.[/quote]
Stumbling by reading the wrong things can be useful in its own
way if we're honest with ourselves. That stumbling tells us
something isn't right. "No, that's not working right." It
seems to me God designed the universe this way so we can
discover if we're on the wrong track. God can be at work in
the darkest places since His Laws are at work in the darkest
places.
[quote]The hardest thing, I think is trying to un-learn the
things we held to be truth. The niggling of doubt is most
uncomfortable, and fear sets in that we might inadvertently
betray our faith, or, worse, betray Jesus whom we love. For me,
I truly needed a sign from God to know how to proceed.[/quote]
I faced a situation similar to yours -- different but similar.
What if I chose the "wrong" God? I could compare my decision to
walking off a cliff and not being if I'd fall or not.
My conclusion was that if God was going to be upset with me for
making an honest mistake, there was nothing I could do about
that. I would not believe in a God who would be upset with me
for that. You could say it almost like betting. The only God I
found worth betting on or believing in was One who Loved and One
who understood me if I made honest mistakes. It was the only
God worth having to me. Over the cliff then -- and as Esther
said, "If I perish, I perish." If God was going to punish me
for believing He was benevolent and forgiving when he was not,
that would have to be the way it was.
I also could see rather clearly that many people were stuck in
their religions based on fear -- and all kinds of religion too.
They couldn't all be right. But people were afraid to doubt
what they believed.
Today I see it as a pernicious and devilish form of influence
over the minds of people. To doubt our beliefs about Jesus is
not doubting Jesus. We are wondering about ourselves -- are
we right? The demonic does not want people to doubt
themselves. That's what I think. And how the devilish
influences throw ideas together, they get people to think if
they doubt some idea they have about God, they are doubting God
Himself. Jesus can stand scrutiny. He's not afraid of the
truth and not scared or angry if people have doubts because they
know they don't know. Knowing we don't know is best in fact.
The "real" Jesus can appear only if we stop insisting that the
ideas in our heads must be right. Darkness precedes light.
Error precedes truth. And I think false ideas about Christ come
before Christ.
[quote]I, too, believed at first in salvation by faith alone.
It was a lazy kind of faith: Jesus did it all, I don't have to
do anything about myself, and it's all good. Jesus saves. It's
all wrong and delusional. The plan is much greater as you made
clear.[/quote]And such doctrines short-circuit people's
spiritual progress, keeping them down, keeping them stuck with
some definition of faith that doesn't strike me as real faith at
all. James said faith without works is dead. I'd say faith
without works isn't really faith but wishful thinking.
[quote]I think what I love about the Church is that she
recognizes our proclivity toward sin, even as established
Christians, and tangible helps are made available if we really,
truly desire to become better people, better disciples. (The
Church also teaches much on suffering, which I find helpful.
Suffering is acknowledged as a tool for growth, a binding to
Christ. 'Nother subject.)
The study on the sin of presumption was very eye-opening. I did
not yet know that it is an established Catholic teaching. I
looked into it further. The Catholic encyclopedia defines the
sin of presumption this way:[/quote]
I first became aware of the sin of presumption through Catholic
teachings. It made sense to me, and since it made sense and
explained things to me, I thought it true.
[quote]Catholic Answers adds this warning about sinning twice
(!) :
To laugh at His passion and death![/quote]
Yes, I think that's what it is. It's crucifying Jesus afresh.
It's wanting to put him back on the Cross. Yes, it's treating
God like a utility. To make matters worse, these people are not
being forgiven but think they are. They can descent into
spiritual insanity the more they do it. It seems to me that God
could forgive them if they could repent but people can reach a
state of such insanity that they can't repent. Hebrews doesn't
say it's impossible for God to forgive some things -- but rather
repentance becomes impossible.
Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made
partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the
world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance;
seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put
him to an open shame.
It strikes me as dangerous to play with the sin of presumption;
and many churches never mention it or warn people about it.
Evey time we sin knowingly with the idea God will surely forgive
us later puts us one step closer to having our hearts so hard we
couldn't ask for forgiveness. To me, it's one of the most
frightening of sins.
Yes, I got my first instruction about the sin of presumption
from a Catholic source; but later I had a conversation with
Jesus and Mary about it. Nothing they said disagreed with the
Catholic teaching. I have no private revelation to set up as
something novel to believe in. Some certainty does seem
possible to me. When the long Tradition of the Church agrees
with Scriptures, I tend to believe it's true; and when a private
revelation comes that also agrees, that only increases my
certainty. It's also common sense that God would not allow
Himself to be used as a utility perpetually.
[quote]Many people balk at guided prayer, but the Church can
truly help us in our prayer life. This adaptation of a prayer
from the Divine Mercy Chaplet is suggested:[/quote]The key is
meaning it when saying it as you know. Repeating things by rote
without meaning them is nothing, of course. If people say the
same prayer and mean it, why wouldn't that be a wonderful thing?
Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall
agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it
shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
#Post#: 3580--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 5, 2016, 8:47 pm
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[quote author=bradley link=topic=403.msg3576#msg3576
date=1452043201]
^Indeed, no one is perfect, especially at moderating, I have
done it before myself, and found myself being the bad guy even
though I felt sure I was doing the right thing. Thats why I
stopped in from time to time after I left without logging in.
Actions speak louder than words, lol, even though thats all we
have here. [/quote]
There are times when somebody wants a fall guy to take blame or
to provide "entertainment." I've seen it happen -- or at
least I'm convinced it's what happened. As admin promotes
someone to moderator but with the plan of taking him down later.
I had something similar happen to me at a forum where I wasn't
a member. I was to moderate anonymously. I did things the way
people said they should be done; but fireworks commenced. I'd
say I was set up to fail.
[quote]I guess it would be better to say that its better to
"star" out foul language or hateful speech than to delete a post
with it in it. I have done the latter before unfortunately.
In a way, leaving stuff up there if its not too bad, promotes
the truth of what the person truly is under stress (usually when
we are ourselves at the core).[/quote]
Hard to say. Hard to make rules that work out right in every
situation. If it's too bad, some good people may decide to
leave; but if it is that bad, maybe the thing to do is let it
stand and ban the person. Then the good people can see you're
trying to keep a pleasant environment. If someone strikes you
as a malicious troublemaker, go that route. But if you think
he's not usually that way and even thank you later for cleaning
his posts, by all means clean them up. It may hinge on how much
faith the other person has in you -- will he be grateful if you
clean up his posts? Some of that is guesswork.
[quote]To the something about nothing. I have prayed and asked
others for prayer once for something that was pretty all
incompassing (to have ALL demon possesions worldwide be cast
out, so that all would have the chance to make thing right
before they come back in with their friends). Out of several
forums, I can only remember a few agreeing in prayer and most
responding thats its probably not right since even Jesus didnt
do it. I responded that Jesus said that even greater things
would be done by those past Him, and how He said that if we had
just a little faith, we could move literal mountains. I of
course prayed IF its within God's will, but I had faith it could
be done.
[/quote]As long as there are people on the earth that want
demons here, I don't think it is possible to cast them all out.
If people by their own free will want the demonic, I think they
have a God-given right to have them. So in such cases, I would
not pray for them to be removed. People must want to be rid of
them. There are sometimes in the Gospels where we see Jesus
asking people, "Wilt thou be made whole" before doing anything.
They had to agree to it first and then he'd do it. Was he
getting rid of some demons? I think perhaps he was even if the
text don't say explicitly that the person had an unclean spirit.
I have prayed to ask that all demonic influences be removed
from people if they want them out. In some cases, like the
outrageous things we see in the news now where demonically
inspired terrorists are committing all kinds of crimes against
innocent people, praying to have the demons removed won't work
if the terrorists want them; but God can bind them, rendering
them less able to keep injuring the innocent. If they grow
angry and turn on the people who summoned them, so be it.
When a demon finds its host is no longer worth using, it often
destroys it. If bound so it can't injure the innocent, it vents
its rage on whatever it can. The Devil has no loyalty or
sympathy for the people he fools. That's how things seem to
work out the way I see them and if the guilty people who summon
the demons may have to be crushed and destroyed before the
demons can be dealt with, then that's what needs to happen.
Pray for the protection of the innocent -- and the binding of
evil spirits -- and it that means the guilty get injured, too
bad -- but I don't pray for that.
#Post#: 3740--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Twinc Date: March 4, 2016, 12:05 pm
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much too much ado about nothing - nothing is nothing but no
thing is something and everything - if we take a retrospective
glance at the stretched out span of our own lives, at the years
of infancy, childhood, adolescence and maturity which relentless
time has buried in the past, at all those years whose motley
episodes are recoverable only as memories, everything that has
happened to us now seems like the happenings of a prolonged and
vivid dream. It seems such an appalling thing to believe that
those events that were so solid, so substantial and so real when
they were actual are only like dream stuff - those years when we
lived so ardently and intensely, when we experience the loftiest
exaltations and the most poignant emotions, when we felt the
strongest passions and endured the bitterest sufferings - where
are they now ? where have they gone ? They are now only
recollections of the past and they have gone into the deeps of
memory ! What are such remembrances ? They are simply a series
of mental pictures, that is they are no more than thoughts in
and fot the mind - if all our past personal experience through
the years - no matter whether they are as few as five or as many
as sixty - turns out ion the end to be a series of transient
ideas, what are we to say about our coming life which extends
into the future ? Nay what of the vivid present in which we are
living with such immediacy ? Will they not turn out to be the
same when we investigate them, because the present will
inescapably become the past and the future inescapably become
the present - more later - twinc
#Post#: 3743--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Twinc Date: March 4, 2016, 4:56 pm
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contd - they will then appear to possess the same reality nor
the same value which they possess now. Yet this day, this
minute, this very moment through which we are now passing must
actually possess precisely the same characteristics which they
have before or after. Past, present and future constitute the
whole of our human existence whatb else is demonstrated by it
than that our own wakeful existence is itself only a
thought-series and that our personal experience is a mentally
constructed affair[Brunton] - twinc
#Post#: 3746--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: March 4, 2016, 10:48 pm
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[quote author=Twinc link=topic=403.msg3740#msg3740
date=1457114737]
if all our past personal experience through the years - no
matter whether they are as few as five or as many as sixty -
turns out ion the end to be a series of transient ideas, what
are we to say about our coming life which extends into the
future ?[/quote]I see no reason -- no reason at all -- for
anything to exist except the continuing Will of God that it be
so. We are always in the "now". Present tense:
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as
certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his
offspring.
Time is tied to guilt and regret -- when we wish we could go
back and change the past but fail to repent of the sin which
created the guilt and regret. Can we get to the point where
all is forgiven and we regret nothing?
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rzy2wZSg5ZM
#Post#: 3750--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Twinc Date: March 6, 2016, 6:20 am
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all is forgiven = includes blasphemy against the Holy Spirit -
twinc
#Post#: 3753--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: March 6, 2016, 1:21 pm
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[quote author=Twinc link=topic=403.msg3750#msg3750
date=1457266800]
all is forgiven = includes blasphemy against the Holy Spirit -
twinc
[/quote]Yes, I think it does. This sin can be forgiven, I
think, but not "inside time" since Jesus said "never" -- meaning
inside time -- but then went on to say such a person was risking
damnation. That means he's not damned for sure. It can be
forgiven, but not in this life inside of time.
Mark 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost
hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.
"In danger of" does not mean "certain."
Jesus' manner of speaking in that verse follows a pattern he
used elsewhere when he'd talk about events in this world in this
life and then about those in the world to come.
Saul had an anointing from God and defiled it. There would be
no forgiveness for him in that life about that. God refused to
answer him. That did not mean Saul would be damned; but he did
not accept the justice of God and rebelled further. The
additional rebellion only increased the "danger" he was in of
eternal damnation.
We should remember too that eternal damnation is the result of a
heart being so hard it refuses to repent and begins to hate God.
If anyone repents, God will forgive; but that doesn't always
mean forgiveness in earthly terms.
Sometimes in earthly terms, there is penance -- and if we
refuse the penance, our repentance wasn't sincere. I compare
this to wanting to steal someone's car, asking God to forgive us
and then keeping the car. That doesn't work.
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