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#Post#: 3562--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Oneoff Date: January 5, 2016, 12:48 am
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[quote author=bradley link=topic=403.msg3560#msg3560
date=1451967796]
^Your love of divisiveness amazes me sometimes. I pray the
Lord would visit you.
[/quote]
'Divisiveness'? ?
Are you not the chappie who once divided and deserted a forum
because of conflict between James and Nancy regarding the
subject of dreams, and determined not to so much as log-in again
until two conflict free months had elapsed?
I remember being amazed that, in the absence of logging-in, you
would have to have relied upon "Lordly visitation" to tell you
when such an eventuality might occur. ;D
#Post#: 3563--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 5, 2016, 12:58 am
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I am drawn back to the question if a saint can produce something
out of nothing. I've concluded he can't, not by himself but he
can if he allows God to work. That was pretty much what I had
been thinking; but other passages exist that may shed light on
this. Jesus said of himself:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge:
and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but
the will of the Father which hath sent me.
It is safe then to say we cannot by ourselves do anything.
Every asset or ability we have has been given to us by God.
Then I found this curious verse:
Mark 11:12 And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany,
he was hungry:
13 And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if
haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it,
he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.
Jesus wanted some fruit from the tree. The moral lesson is
clear enough. But the time wasn't right for figs to appear. In
other words, the fig tree couldn't produce figs. But Jesus
still wanted it to make figs. That tells me Jesus gave it the
ability to produce figs. If he wanted figs from it, he would
make it possible for the fig tree to obey.
. . . .
20 And in the morning, as they passed by, they saw the fig tree
dried up from the roots.
21 And Peter calling to remembrance saith unto him, Master,
behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.
22 And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.
The fig tree lacked faith. Other things in nature complied with
Jesus' wishes, doing what he wanted. The fig tree then had no
excuse. Its faith in when and how it bore fruit depended not
on God wanted or made possible but on its own ideas about things
. . . based on experience in the material world.
23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this
mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and
shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those
things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have
whatsoever he saith.
Many people read this figuratively. I read it in both ways,
figurative and literal. The key to moving mountains is not to
injure people when doing it. The Golden Rule must be followed.
God will not help us move a mountain if it would injure
others. In most cases, when mountains move, it's not good for
people. It would be a sin to move it then.
Yes, I am aware this passage also has a meaning connected with
the unfruitful Jewish leaders; and I think if it can apply to
them spiritually, it can apply to a fig tree materially.
Lastly I found this:
Mark 10:27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is
impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are
possible.
But I wonder, really, if Jesus cursed the tree the way we think
of cursing things. He announced it was cursed; but that could
be because the fig tree cursed itself by not complying. If we
oppose the Will of God known to us, God doesn't need to do
anything to us -- we have cursed ourselves by our rebellion.
Think of a large wind moving through a space, and you are told
what to do so it doesn't injure you. You refuse and get blown
away. The wind had no malice towards you. You didn't get
blown away because the wind was angry you didn't do what you
were told. The wind did what it wanted to do, and you opposed
it.
Only good comes down from Heaven. If it appears that curses are
coming from God, that is an illusion that we may describe in
human terms as reality -- and for us, it can be our reality.
From our perspective, it looks as if God cursed us and we may
feel that way.
Thus it is written:
Psalm 18:26 With the pure thou wilt shew thyself pure; and with
the froward thou wilt shew thyself froward.
#Post#: 3564--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 5, 2016, 1:24 am
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[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=403.msg3562#msg3562
date=1451976508]
'Divisiveness'? ?
Are you not the chappie who once divided and deserted a forum
because of conflict between James and Nancy regarding the
subject of dreams, and determined not to so much as log-in again
until two conflict free months had elapsed?
I remember being amazed that, in the absence of logging-in, you
would have to have relied upon "Lordly visitation" to tell you
when such an eventuality might occur. ;D
[/quote]Things are getter worse now it seems. I cannot allow
this to continue.
#Post#: 3565--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Piper Date: January 5, 2016, 1:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=403.msg3562#msg3562
date=1451976508]
'Divisiveness'? ?
Are you not the chappie who once divided and deserted a forum
because of conflict between James and Nancy regarding the
subject of dreams, and determined not to so much as log-in again
until two conflict free months had elapsed?
I remember being amazed that, in the absence of logging-in, you
would have to have relied upon "Lordly visitation" to tell you
when such an eventuality might occur. ;D
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]
I remember no such conflict with James.
Nonetheless, avoiding conflict is generally a good idea. It's
like a dark cloud moving over the land, gathering in intensity.
Who wishes to be caught in the storm?
[/font]
#Post#: 3566--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Piper Date: January 5, 2016, 2:29 am
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[quote]Kerry: I am drawn back to the question if a saint can
produce something out of nothing. I've concluded he can't, not
by himself but he can if he allows God to work.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]That seems right to me.
The story of the fig tree always confused me. But, yes, without
faith what fruit can be produced? God will not work or
intervene where there is no faith.
The time of figs was not yet. Without faith that poor tree
could not produce. Yet there is another verse:[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]Job 14:7 (NIV)
7 “At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]We can do nothing on our own. But with God,
all things are possible.
[/font]
#Post#: 3570--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Piper Date: January 5, 2016, 12:39 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
I finally read thru post #5, and truly-- thank you. I learned
so much from your post, and I want even to retain a copy of it.
People have made our faith such a perilous road. God looks upon
the heart, so much may be forgiven, but the
authorities--pastors, ministers, priests-- who are leading so
many astray-- it may be worse for them, I fear.
I see now the infancy of faith, how I began to seek God, and I
studied, mostly on my own. I learned many good things, but, how
many times did I stumble by reading the wrong things. The bible
itself is a tool for good or evil, because of the way in which
people can form doctrines of their own devising, and then find
the Scriptures to make what seems a solid proof. Not many will
consider doctrine based on the whole of Scripture. Even fewer
are willing to search history and the faith of Christianity's
founding fathers or the faith of the early saints.
The hardest thing, I think is trying to un-learn the things we
held to be truth. The niggling of doubt is most uncomfortable,
and fear sets in that we might inadvertently betray our faith,
or, worse, betray Jesus whom we love. For me, I truly needed a
sign from God to know how to proceed.
I, too, believed at first in salvation by faith alone. It was a
lazy kind of faith: Jesus did it all, I don't have to do
anything about myself, and it's all good. Jesus saves. It's all
wrong and delusional. The plan is much greater as you made
clear.
I think what I love about the Church is that she recognizes our
proclivity toward sin, even as established Christians, and
tangible helps are made available if we really, truly desire to
become better people, better disciples. (The Church also
teaches much on suffering, which I find helpful. Suffering is
acknowledged as a tool for growth, a binding to Christ. 'Nother
subject.)
The study on the sin of presumption was very eye-opening. I did
not yet know that it is an established Catholic teaching. I
looked into it further. The Catholic encyclopedia defines the
sin of presumption this way:[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]
It may be defined as the condition of a soul that, because of a
badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for
salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of
his sins without repenting of them.
[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Catholic Answers adds this warning about
sinning twice (!) :[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]One wonders how sincere a person’s
love for God is when he is so readily willing to sin simply
because God is forgiving. God cannot be fooled. He reads hearts
and knows our sincerity. To decide to sin is to offend God. To
decide to sin because one knows that he can be forgiven is to
sin twice. It is to use God, reducing him to a utility at the
service of our whim. It is to laugh at his passion and
death.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]To laugh at His passion and death![/font]
[font=trebuchet ms]
Many people balk at guided prayer, but the Church can truly help
us in our prayer life. This adaptation of a prayer from the
Divine Mercy Chaplet is suggested:[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]"Eternal Father, I offer you the
body and blood, soul and divinity of your dearly beloved Son,
our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and for
protection against this temptation. For the sake of his
sorrowful passion, have mercy on me and on the whole
world."[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]My device is running out of charge. I'll
break for now, but may write more later . . .[/font]
#Post#: 3571--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 5, 2016, 3:30 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=403.msg3566#msg3566
date=1451982597]
[font=trebuchet ms]That seems right to me.
The story of the fig tree always confused me. But, yes, without
faith what fruit can be produced? God will not work or
intervene where there is no faith.
The time of figs was not yet. Without faith that poor tree
could not produce. Yet there is another verse:[/font]
[font=trebuchet ms]We can do nothing on our own. But with God,
all things are possible.
[/font]
[/quote]So we see how we do nothing on our own. But if Jesus
wanted figs, then figs would have been possible. God could make
it become possible. That tells us about when Jesus wanted
something "out of season". But what if one of Jesus' followers
wants something? The wedding at Cana comes to mind when Mary
asked for something. "It's not my time" was the answer she got;
but we see it became possible. Her motive was not selfish,
she wanted to help others. This is the kind of love that even
Heaven itself bends to when it can be found in a human.
It's not always about what God wants or what Jesus wants. It
seems to me they have plans but can be flexible. I think
Jesus enjoys being flexible if it is a good thing and will make
one of his followers happy.
It seems to me things cannot happen behind Heaven's schedule;
but they can occur ahead of schedule. More progress can be
made on earth than even Heaven itself planned if there are
humans willing to pray for it and willing to let God work
through them.
In both cases -- the fig tree and the wedding at Cana -- we see
Jesus present. Would God have changed the water to wine for
Mary if Jesus hadn't been there and she had prayed to the
Father? I doubt it. There is something about Jesus being
present -- and of course it doesn't always have to be in a
physical human body.
#Post#: 3572--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: bradley Date: January 5, 2016, 4:36 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=403.msg3565#msg3565
date=1451979733]
[font=trebuchet ms]
I remember no such conflict with James.
Nonetheless, avoiding conflict is generally a good idea. It's
like a dark cloud moving over the land, gathering in intensity.
Who wishes to be caught in the storm?
[/font]
[/quote]
Back when oneoff moderated a forum, about 10 forums ago. James
basically told me I was being rebellious, and when I responded,
he moderated by deleting my responses and left Jame's go on.
Him being in charge of moderating leads him to sin by favoring
his favorites. Not only do I detest unfair judges, but it
would get no better with him at the helm, so I quit, dropping in
from time to time as a visitor and seeing that division is still
promoted. The site died. End of story. He, like us all,
sin from time to time, but since he was blind to it, I was not
going to encourage him by my continued presence. I was
formenting peace by staying away, sinse I refuse to be his
doormat. He just wanted post counts from me, not any real
communication.
#Post#: 3575--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 5, 2016, 6:41 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bradley link=topic=403.msg3572#msg3572
date=1452033396]
Back when oneoff moderated a forum, about 10 forums ago. James
basically told me I was being rebellious, and when I responded,
he moderated by deleting my responses and left Jame's go on.
Him being in charge of moderating leads him to sin by favoring
his favorites. Not only do I detest unfair judges, but it
would get no better with him at the helm, so I quit, dropping in
from time to time as a visitor and seeing that division is still
promoted. The site died. End of story. He, like us all,
sin from time to time, but since he was blind to it, I was not
going to encourage him by my continued presence. I was
formenting peace by staying away, sinse I refuse to be his
doormat. He just wanted post counts from me, not any real
communication.
[/quote]That kind of thing leaves people wondering, doesn't it?
It's a "he-said, she said" situation. The evidence got
destroyed or manipulated. Sometimes the moderator who destroys
evidence didn't have a good motive for it. He is opening
himself up to that suspicion and undermining his own authority.
Do you think I feel sorry for a moderator who destroys evidence
and then claims something while someone else claims the
opposite? Not much. If he wanted people to know what
happened, he shouldn't have destroyed the evidence.
I may destroy or hide evidence from time to time; but I try to
do it in a way that won't make people wonder about my motives.
If someone drops a match and causes a little fire, maybe someone
else who sees it could put it out before the whole room caught
fire and anyone else knew about it. A good person could drop a
match that might threaten to burn the whole room. There is no
need to let the whole go up in flames or get others involved if
you can put out the fire and correct the innocent mistake. And
yes, sometimes people make innocent mistakes at forums -- things
get typed wrong or people misunderstand things. I've done both
myself so why would I be surprised if others did them? If a
moderator can catch tiny problems like that, there is no need to
advertise it. No need for other people to know and possibly
misunderstand. But if the whole room is already in flames,
there's no point in trying to pretend that match wasn't dropped
-- and people will suspect you of evil if you try to cover
things up by hiding or destroying evidence. Even if your
motive is good, handling evidence like that makes other people
suspicious. I think it can wreck a forum even if the motive is
good -- but we know, don't we, that often the motive is not
good. No need to go into that.
#Post#: 3576--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: bradley Date: January 5, 2016, 7:20 pm
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^Indeed, no one is perfect, especially at moderating, I have
done it before myself, and found myself being the bad guy even
though I felt sure I was doing the right thing. Thats why I
stopped in from time to time after I left without logging in.
Actions speak louder than words, lol, even though thats all we
have here. I guess it would be better to say that its better
to "star" out foul language or hateful speech than to delete a
post with it in it. I have done the latter before
unfortunately. In a way, leaving stuff up there if its not too
bad, promotes the truth of what the person truly is under stress
(usually when we are ourselves at the core).
To the something about nothing. I have prayed and asked others
for prayer once for something that was pretty all incompassing
(to have ALL demon possesions worldwide be cast out, so that all
would have the chance to make thing right before they come back
in with their friends). Out of several forums, I can only
remember a few agreeing in prayer and most responding thats its
probably not right since even Jesus didnt do it. I responded
that Jesus said that even greater things would be done by those
past Him, and how He said that if we had just a little faith, we
could move literal mountains. I of course prayed IF its within
God's will, but I had faith it could be done.
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