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#Post#: 3545--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 4, 2016, 7:03 am
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[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=403.msg3543#msg3543
date=1451900749]
Kerry,
Such as I 'believe' that might be the 'Mind and intent of God'
is just about the antipathy of what you believe.[/quote]
And this is based on what, please?
[quote]For sure I ignore the beliefs of ancient religious
leaders.[/quote]
And I would consider myself vain if I thought God had granted me
wisdom about things without ever having told others before me.
[quote][font=Verdana]All of them (both modern 'us', as well as
the ancients) ignore the essential fact that man's understanding
of the 'mind and intent of God' is limited by his own
mortality.[/font][/quote][font=Verdana]You lost me there. How
does the mortality of man affect his understanding? [/font]
[quote]My understanding of the gulf between man and God, puts me
firmly in the 'Simple Trust' category. [/quote]Ha, trust in
what? You don't know anything about God, so how can you trust
what you don't know?
[quote][font=Verdana]Presumptions of 'knowledge' based on man's
propensity to attribute to God any man made pronouncement on the
basis of antiquity is.....just
that.[/font][/quote][font=Verdana]The only being worth the title
of God to me, the only Being worth worshiping, would have to be
kindly disposed to His Creation. If the most powerful being in
the universe is wicked or angry, wishes ill to his creation, I
would refuse to call such a being God. He could kill me,
torture me, do what he wants -- perhaps eventually get me to
say, "Okay, you're God, big boy that you are" -- but I wouldn't
believe it and I wouldn't mean it. [/font]
[font=Verdana]Therefore He would provide what was needed for the
creatures he had placed in the world. And I firmly believe God
has provided exactly what each of us needs and continues to do
so. [/font]
[font=Verdana]Further, I conclude by direct observation that my
fellow man and I have often erred in our decisions; and going
further yet, I observe that some knowledge is dangerous in the
wrong hands. Wicked men can do a lot of damage if given
knowledge. Therefore God would withhold some knowledge from me
and my fellow man until we would use it properly. If such
knowledge -- any knowledge -- could help us live better and love
each other better, God would surely tell us about it. He would
tell us what we need to know and what is safe for us to know.
[/font]
[font=Verdana]So those being my premises, it follows that God
would have revealed things to people long ago, long before I
came onto the scene; and this belief of mine has been in my own
mind proved correct. God has revealed things to me, mostly
through nature or His servants truths which I then also found
had been revealed to other men long ago. In my old ignorance,
I could read what they wrote . . . and without understanding.
When my ignorance was removed, I saw what they saw; and let me
add this too, almost every religion on this earth began as
revelations from God which quickly got corrupted and
misunderstood. [/font]
[quote]IMO (and this is absolutely as far as I will stretch my
'Simple Trust' into the regime of presumed knowledge) Christ
'came' in order to rectify the ancient misunderstandings and
expectations of Judaism and launch the regime of 'Simple Trust
without text book definition', which man then almost immediately
reverted back to 'text book definition' as per the early
post-Christ religions which you list.
"Hook, line, and sinker" could not be more apt.[/quote]
You admit you know nothing, so why are you typing away? I on
the other hand can see the basic truths of the universe
expressed in most religions. If you do the digging and acquaint
yourself with the cultural context, then you will find that if
you understand your own religion correctly, other religions
also make sense to you. And you also see that when others
misunderstand their own religion, they surely are boggled by
other religions.
You may have read the Bible; but I don't think you understand
the Old Testament or Judaism. I doubt you've read the Quran,
any Hindu books, any Buddhist books.
What you write about Jesus coming to correct "[font=Verdana]the
ancient misunderstandings and expectations of Judaism" is sheer
madness to me. He said he was not attacking or changing
anything Moses had taught. For you to be right, we'd need to
revise our New Testament to omit those passages in which Jesus
said he agreed with Moses. So then, what is next? If you
start omitting "words of Christ" from the Gospels to suit your
own fancy, why not go all the way and throw all the Bible out?
[/font]
[font=Verdana]I tell you I think I can agree with Moses and with
Jesus completely. I see no disgreement between them.
Therefore I tell you I have good cause to:[/font]
[font=Verdana]1. Believe I understand Moses correctly.[/font]
[font=Verdana]2. Believe I understand the words of Jesus
correctly.[/font]
[font=Verdana]3. Believe the New Testament accurately reports
Jesus' words when he says he agrees with Moses. [/font]
[font=Verdana]You forget too that I have had conversations with
some of the people mentioned in the Bible. I consider Abraham
and Sarah friends -- and they also taught me a few things. I
consider Mary a dear friend and one of my teachers. What I
believe makes sense to me; and I don't doubt my spiritual
experiences because I was given signs that they were working
correctly. For example, I once saw something in the spirit --
in London, in a building where the Thames was visible from. A
few years later, what I saw made the news; and I checked where
that company had buildings. Sure enough, they had a building
close to the Thames. [/font]
[font=Verdana]Another time, one of my spiritual adventures ended
because it was going to be morning in France. Most of the
people in this adventure were from France since it was taking
place in Paris. They had to leave the "dream" because the sun
was coming up and they would be waking up. What do you think I
did when I woke up? I noted the time on my clock and then
checked to see if it was sunrise in Paris. It was. So I don't
doubt my sanity, and I don't think I'm hallucinating after being
shown things I could verify later using physical means. [/font]
[font=Verdana]I hope you do not feel insulted when I tell you
are spiritually blind. Most people are. If they are sincere in
wanting to find God, they seek someone to be their teacher who
is not spiritually blind. Your problem is not that you're
spiritually blind but rather that you think everyone else must
be as blind as you. And no, don't look my way. I was never
told to be a teacher or take on students so don't think I'm
trying to pick up followers. I would not dare set myself up as
a teacher without being told to do it. As a matter of fact,
I'm glad I was never told to be a teacher. I'd dread it.
[/font]
[font=Verdana]But I tell you this: When the student is ready,
the teacher will appear. God always provides exactly what is
needed. That is an ironclad rule. God also does not permit
problems to arise without first having provided solutions. Man
may try to cause problems and may succeed at times; but Heaven
does not permit things to progress too far so that problems
arise which have no solutions. The following quote from Paul
is Jewish thought by the way:[/font]
[font=Verdana]1 Corinthians 10:13
HTML http://legacy.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Corinthians+10:13&version=KJV<br
/>[/font][font=Verdana][/size]There hath no temptation taken you
but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not
suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with
the temptation also make a way to[/font][font=Verdana][/size]
[/font][font=Verdana][/size]escape[/font][font=Verdana][/size],
that ye may be able to bear it.[/font]
[font=Verdana][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][/size]Your task should be to ask of your own
conscience why you enjoy being spiritually blind and also enjoy
believing everyone is as blind as you, thus providing you the
logic to reject all other men's words as worthless. Ignorance
can excuse many things, and sins of ignorance can be easily
forgiven; but when men are willfully ignorant and willfully
blind and willfully rebellious to all authority, ignorance is
no longer an excuse. I think you may stand on perilous ground.
God provides exactly what we need; and sometimes that includes
false teachers to bruise us so we can see our own flaws and
ignorance. If we want to have false teachers, God may provide
them for us so we learn better. [/font]
[font=Verdana][/size] [/font]
#Post#: 3546--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Oneoff Date: January 4, 2016, 7:34 am
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Kerry,
My way of regarding things is borne of my search for resolution
of the centuries old religious turmoil that I perceive to have
derived from your way of perceiving things.
I hold to it until I find another plausible resolution.
When you can point me to a significant source of peaceful unity
without enforced uniformity I will reconsider.
#Post#: 3549--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 4, 2016, 10:32 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=403.msg3546#msg3546
date=1451914458]
Kerry,
My way of regarding things is borne of my search for resolution
of the centuries old religious turmoil that I perceive to have
derived from your way of perceiving things.
I hold to it until I find another plausible resolution.
When you can point me to a significant source of peaceful unity
without enforced uniformity I will reconsider.
[/quote]I asked you to examine your conscience, and you hand me
this piece of reasoning? What a cold answer.
Jesus told us that few find the strait gate and narrow way.
Why? Because they fail to obey the simplest of commandments.
Everything Moses wrote can be summed by it. What Moses wrote
was lengthier explanations, examples of one simple rule which we
should know without being told.
Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men
should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and
the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and
broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be
which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of
thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
People follow false prophets because such leaders are wiling to
justify their evil. When their leaders are caught with their
pants down, their followers are apt to return the favor by
trying to justify their leaders' evil. It is completely
impossible to cheat an honest man -- if someone sincerely wants
the truth, it is impossible that he could be deceived by any
religious leader. I again ask you to examine your conscience
and ask why you fell for the deceptions of false religious
leaders. You've competed step one which was to realize they
bamboozled you and were no better than you and knew no more than
you. The question you need to ask yourself is why you fell for
their con game. What was it about you that made you fall for it?
I can point you in the direction of several religious leaders I
wouldn't fear to follow. The Pope is on good terms with the
Dalai Lama and with some Muslim leaders. Yes, there have been
bad Popes; but again, by their fruits you will know them. You
could be a Catholic, a Buddhist, or whatever. I read an
article once by a Hindu about the Crucifixion of Jesus; and I
agreed with him completely. I also read a poem about it by a
Muslim; and I agree with him too completely. If we read the
story about Buddha under the banyan tree and understand it, we
see it teaches something Christianity does too -- if the Bible
is read right.
My own analysis of your situation is that it hasn't yet dawned
on you that the rigid and intolerant forms of Christianity are
not real Christianity at all. Again, by their fruits you will
know them. You'd have better luck trying to herd cats than
getting such people to exist in harmony with others. The
slightest disagreement is enough to set some of them off.
Their religion is not based on love or treating others as they
want to be treated. Their religion is often based on them
being "saved" even if they're abject sinners clinging to sins
they know about but refuse to repent of. All kinds of crazy
ways of being saved have been invented. Say the magic words, "I
accept you into my heart, Jesus" is one. Just say those magic
words, and that's all you need to do. And anyone who never
said those words is going to hell. Oh yes, there are many
variations. Believe this doctrine or that. Anything except
repent of your sins when you become aware of them -- anything
except obeying the Golden Rule.
Ask them to obey the Golden Rule, and they'll tell you, "We
should obey it; but even if we do, that won't save us." I tell
you yes it will. It will because to be honest about it, no
one can obey it completely on his own steam. But if we are
wiling to obey it and regret when we fail, Jesus will help us.
Jesus will give us the wisdom and ability to obey it. It's
called allowing God to move within us. We are not saving
ourselves by good works; but we are being saved by allowing God
to change us. Jesus can do that even if no one ever heard of
him. And I'd say some Buddhists might be better "Christians"
than some of the people who call themselves Christians. By
their fruits!
So many theological positions we find today in Christianity are
tedious attempts to dodge the Golden Rule -- foolish ideas that
promise evil men who do evil deeds can be rewarded by God
without repenting and changing for the better. It's really easy
and really simple. There is no need to spin such tedious
doctrines that justify evil and make false promises to people
who need to be told they can change for the better -- they don't
need to continue being slaves to sin. Such people often know
though that they're being foolish. That's the reason they get
upset and vitriolic when someone dares to disagree with them --
they feel their world is collapsing on them. Their idol might
be toppled and smashed. That would mean they wouldn't be saved
-- can't have that, can we? So in order to keep hypnotizing
themselves into believing everything's fine, they will resort to
almost anything. And the hate and fear which is masked on
Sunday morning when they dress up in their Sunday's best
clothes and fake smiles on their faces and smarmy piety comes
flying out. "Oh my, where did that come from?" you ask.
"They seemed like such decent people." Well, if you
threaten their idol, the hate and fear show up. If you agree
with them and worship their idol, even the idol may seem to have
a smile. No harmony is possible with such people unless you
bow to their idol. Am I being harsh saying some Christians do
not know Jesus but have an idol? Perhaps, but I think it's
accurate. By their fruits! Returning to Matthew again:
Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall
enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of
my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.
That seems clear to me. Why make it so complicated? But there
will be people who know they work iniquity and want to wiggle
out of it. They will say there is some other way to enter the
kingdom of heaven even while deliberately and knowingly working
iniquity. Don't ask them to do good works since that would mean
they were trying to earn their salvation -- and we know we can't
do that. So there's no need to try to do good works or to avoid
doing evil ones. That's how one argument goes. What wiggling
around! It reminds me of how a serpent twists and coils.
Someone else may say, "But I know Jesus. He says that to people
he never knew; and since I know he knows me, I'll be fine even
if I am working iniquity." This is delusion. We know if we
are one of his sheep by how we behave.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep
his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God
perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
There is no need to try to talk ourselves into thinking we're
okay with Jesus or to to set up an imaginary relationship with
Jesus that tells us we're fine. We can look at our works and
see for ourselves. If the love of God is being perfected in us,
it is a clear and sure sign "we are in him." We know him and he
knows us. The tree is bearing the right fruit.
People who wish to pervert this truth to justify themselves or
to make them feel good about themselves are not going to be the
kind of people who are able to get along with others. You
can't expect harmony from them since they remain uncharitable
and self-centered. Take a look around. Such people can't get
along even with their own kind. So you have this denomination
that supposedly has everyone in harmony because they all
subscribe to the same ideas. Sooner or later it seems something
happens and there is a rift and off someone goes to form yet
another denomination.
I have met people of various faiths that I had harmony with.
It's not what people call themselves or even all the various
things they believe. What they do tells us if they are on the
right track. If they are obeying the Golden Rule, we needn't
worry about how Jesus looks at them.
Matthew 25:37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord,
when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave
thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and
clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say
unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of
these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the
devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty,
and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye
clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we
thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick,
or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you,
Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did
it not to me.
God will reveal nothing to someone who is not willing to commit
himself to obeying the Golden Rule, and I mean commit with an
attitude almost like desperation. The person is desperate to
find the kingdom almost the way someone under water too long is
desperate for air. Seek and ye shall find. That is a true
saying; but I daresay you don't believe it. You believe, "Seek
and ye shall be stymied." You seem to have a god who enjoys
frustrating men. That is a false god, an idol. But it's the god
you have. As long as you have for your god, you can keep on
being stymied. Please don't feel insulted by that comment --
we all have idolatrous ideas about God to some extent or
another. Our task is to purify our ideas.
And there is no guarantee that God will reveal Himself
personally to someone who commits himself to obeying the Golden
Rule. The contrary is what usually happens -- the first
revealed truth about God will come from one of God's servants.
We are not Jesus. We do not have that relationship with God
Himself. God sends one of His servants to reveal something to
us -- and if we receive it, we are counted worthy of receiving
more.
Many people who think that they have the ear of God and that God
talks to them personally because they said the sinner's prayer
or did something similar are either delusional and talking to
themselves at best or chatting with a demon at the worst. They
are like the people who said about God and Moses, "Hath the LORD
indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us?"
They are either delusional or lying. The rules for how God
will reveal Himself to someone if He wants someone to act as a
prophet are laid out. Many Christians don't believe it though
and prefer to think they don't need an intermediary of any kind
-- they have a hotline to God.
Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a
prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in
a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.
8 With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not
in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he
behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my
servant Moses?
I can tell you this. I was never told to act as a prophet; but
the first time I became aware of God, I mean truly aware, was in
a dream. It was a dream without objects, just the Voice and
the Sacred Flames. At the time, I wasn't aware of what Moses
had written in Numbers 12. When reading Maimonides, his
explanation of it told me what had happened and things made
sense. I also knew for sure that Numbers 12 was right. No need
to guess. I can tell you too that having God speak in a dream
is an inferior manner to His appearing in a vision. That says
something about me. I was gifted in a way but I lacked the
"equipment" needed for God to be able to appear to me in a
vision. Only my spiritual ears could be trusted. So I think
anyway. It's nothing to brag about then; and I hope you don't
think I'm bragging. I tell you this to let you know God has His
ways of giving us certainty. But it all must start with seeking
first the kingdom. I mean really seek it. Thinking we want
to have Jesus save us is not seeking the kingdom. We're
still being selfish in a certain way. It is backwards because
it's selfish -- but it should teach us that Love is possible so
Jesus will do some things for us to show us real Love is
possible. So it's a start -- a good start. But it's not a good
enough start. When we truly begin seeking the kingdom, we
begin losing our lives and want to love others as Jesus has
loved us. That is how immortality is achieved.
Matthew 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man
will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross,
and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever
will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Pews are filled with people who want to think Jesus died for
them. How many of them would be wiling to die for Jesus or for
someone else?
#Post#: 3551--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Piper Date: January 4, 2016, 12:54 pm
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(Note to self: post #5)
#Post#: 3552--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Oneoff Date: January 4, 2016, 1:36 pm
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[quote] I asked you to examine your conscience [/quote] I do
that constantly [quote] and you hand me this piece of reasoning?
What a cold answer[/quote]I didn’t intend it to seem cold[quote]
Jesus told us that few find the strait gate and narrow way.
Why? Because they fail to obey the simplest of
commandments[/quote]And what if that was not the reason?
[quote]Everything Moses wrote can be summed by it. What Moses
wrote was lengthier explanations, examples of one simple rule
which we should know without being told[/quote]”Some Catholics
such as Richard Simon (1638 - 1712) reject Moses as being the
author of the Pentateuch” [quote]Matthew 7:12 Therefore all
things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even
so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and
broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be
which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's
clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grap es of
thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a
corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a
corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down,
and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.[/quote] I too
have read that passage[quote]People follow false prophets
because such leaders are willing to justify their
evil.[/quote]although they may also have other
reasons[quote]When their leaders are caught with their pants
down, their followers are apt to return the favor by trying to
justify their leaders' evil.[/quote]that may be so[quote]It is
completely impossible to cheat an honest man[/quote]I think it
is totally possible[quote]if someone sincerely wants the truth,
it is impossible that he could be deceived by any religious
leader[/quote]I disagree[quote]I again ask you to examine your
conscience and ask why you fell for the deceptions of false
religious leaders.[/quote]I’ll do that[quote]You've completed
step one[/quote]true[quote] which was to realize they bamboozled
you and were no better than you and knew no more than
you.[/quote]Not quite true but you’re welcome to that
opinion[quote]The question you need to ask yourself is why you
fell for their con game[/quote]I don’t feel that need[quote]What
was it about you that made you fall for it?[/quote]I don’t feel
a need to answer that[quote]I can point you in the direction of
several religious leaders I wouldn't fear to follow.[/quote]and
I can point to those who I would[quote]The Pope is on good terms
with the Dalai Lama and with some Muslim leaders.[/quote]Bully
for him[quote]Yes, there have been bad Popes; but again, by
their fruits you will know them. [/quote]and that’s the basis on
which have judged a few Catholics that have encountered[quote]
You could be a Catholic, a Buddhist, or whatever[/quote]no I
couldn’t[quote]I read an article once by a Hindu about the
Crucifixion of Jesus; and I agreed with him completely. I also
read a poem about it by a Muslim; and I agree with him too
completely. If we read the story about Buddha under the banyan
tree and understand it, we see it teaches something
Christianity does too -- if the Bible is read right.[/quote]
Maybe[quote]My own analysis of your situation is that it hasn't
yet dawned on you that the rigid and intolerant forms of
Christianity are not real Christianity at all.[/quote]And I
thought that to be the very thing that had dawned on
me[quote]Again,by their fruits you will know them. [/quote]as
indeed I always do[quote] You'd have better luck trying to herd
cats than getting such people to exist in harmony with others.
The slightest disagreement is enough to set some of them off.
Their religion is not based on love or treating others as they
want to be treated. Their religion is often based on them
being "saved" even if they're abject sinners clinging to sins
they know about but refuse to repent of. All kinds of crazy
ways of being saved have been invented.[/quote]and you are not
exempt from crazy stuff[quote]Say the magic words, "I accept you
into my heart, Jesus" is one. Just say those magic words, and
that's all you need to do. And anyone who never said those
words is going to hell. Oh yes, there are many variations.
Believe this doctrine or that. Anything except repent of your
sins when you become aware of them -- anything except obeying
the Golden Rule. Ask them to obey the Golden Rule, and they'll
tell you, "We should obey it; but even if we do, that won't save
us."[/quote]convenient generalisation[quote]I tell you yes it
will. It will because to be honest about it, no one can obey it
completely on his own steam. But if we are wiling to obey it
and regret when we fail, Jesus will help us. Jesus will give
us the wisdom and ability to obey it. It's called allowing God
to move within us. We are not saving ourselves by good works;
but we are being saved by allowing God to change us. Jesus can
do that even if no one ever heard of him. And I'd say some
Buddhists might be better "Christians" than some of the people
who call themselves Christians. [/quote] and some humanists are
better than all of us[quote]So many theological positions we
find today in Christianity are tedious attempts to dodge the
Golden Rule -- foolish ideas that promise evil men who do evil
deeds can be rewarded by God without repenting and changing for
the better. It's really easy and really simple. There is no
need to spin such tedious doctrines that justify evil and make
false promises to people who need to be told they can change for
the better -- they don't need to continue being slaves to sin.
Such people often know though that they're being foolish.
That's the reason they get upset and vitriolic when someone
dares to disagree with them -- they feel their world is
collapsing on them. Their idol might be toppled and smashed.
That would mean they wouldn't be saved -- can't have that, can
we? So in order to keep hypnotizing themselves into believing
everything's fine, they will resort to almost anything. And
the hate and fear which is masked on Sunday morning when they
dress up in their Sunday's best clothes and fake smiles on
their faces and smarmy piety comes flying out. "Oh my, where
did that come from?" you ask. "They seemed like such decent
people." Well, if you threaten their idol, the hate and
fear show up. If you agree with them and worship their idol,
even the idol may seem to have a smile. No harmony is possible
with such people unless you bow to their idol. Am I being
harsh saying some Christians do not know Jesus but have an idol?
Perhaps, but I think it's accurate. By their fruits!
Returning to Matthew again: [/quote]Rant noted without
response[quote]Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me,
Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that
doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not
prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils?
and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart
from me, ye that work iniquity.[/quote]Yes. I.ve also read that
passage[quote]That seems clear to me. Why make it so
complicated? But there will be people who know they work
iniquity and want to wiggle out of it. They will say there is
some other way to enter the kingdom of heaven even while
deliberately and knowingly working iniquity. Don't ask them to
do good works since that would mean they were trying to earn
their salvation -- and we know we can't do that. So there's no
need to try to do good works or to avoid doing evil ones.
That's how one argument goes. What wiggling around! It reminds
me of how a serpent twists and coils. Someone else may say,
"But I know Jesus. He says that to people he never knew; and
since I know he knows me, I'll be fine even if I am working
iniquity." This is delusion. We know if we are one of his
sheep by how we behave.[/quote]more rant noted
I’m now too bored to continue and will ‘give it a rest’.
#Post#: 3553--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Kerry Date: January 4, 2016, 2:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I too am bored. I would consider it a favor if you left me
alone so I never heard from you or of you again. If others
wish to continue talking with you, that is their affair; but I
would ask them not to mention you to me. Yes, it has reached
that point.
#Post#: 3554--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Piper Date: January 4, 2016, 2:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]Oneoff: Christ 'came' in order to rectify the ancient
misunderstandings and expectations of Judaism and launch the
regime of 'Simple Trust without text book definition', which man
then almost immediately reverted back to 'text book definition'
as per the early post-Christ religions which you list.
"Hook, line, and sinker" could not be more apt.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]You make it sound as if Jesus was against
religion, against Scripture, even. Was not Jesus, Himself, a
religious Jew? Did He not teach, often referring to Scripture?
Jesus was/is against corrupt religion, against religious
practices that move people farther away from God and truth
rather than closer. Jesus not only followed religious
practises, He promoted them and highlighted their sacred place
in the life of the faithful. Certain practices help bind God's
people to Himself, and help them to live the faith they claim
for themselves.
Of course, we must trust God. But surely Jesus was not so
negligent that His message is only a vague, "Trust me," without
leaving us a firm revelation of the Father, who He is, and what
He desires of us. Jesus certainly was not a teacher with a
blank chalkboard. He taught concrete, tangible lessons, revealed
many things, promised to reveal more, and established a Church
to protect the deposit of faith, to guide the faithful. He,
Himself, gave authority to His apostles, and promised to guide
them by the Holy Spirit.
We can't understand all things, but to say Jesus came and lived
and died, leaving us as orphans is just not true. [/font]
[quote]Oneoff: When you can point me to a significant source of
peaceful unity without enforced uniformity I will
reconsider.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]
You say you want to see unity; the Church is not perfect, but
displays a much greater unity than Protestantism offers. The
reason for the Catechism you see only as a 'textbook' (in some
derogatory, disrespectful manner) is simply to be very clear on
what the beliefs of the Church are. Keep in mind that Catholics
trust that Jesus directly gave authority to the Church; to trust
her is to trust Him. (Of course a non- Catholic, not believing
in apostolic succession will scoff!) Considering the enormity
of lies and slander perpetuated against the Church, I am
grateful the 'textbook' exists, to dispel the utter garbage so
many charge Her with.
What is "enforced uniformity"? Nothing is forced in this faith.
We are free to leave any church, including Catholic. Not every
Catholic follows the practices of the faith because they feel
"forced." Many, if not most, follow the Church and all Her ways
because they believe She is the Church Jesus founded. If no
one, through the centuries, guarded the faith, what heresies
would arise, how many in number, how many would be led astray,
and what chaos and total lack of uniformity would arise?
I think I have been witness to, and have experienced that sea of
confusion.
Anyway, we've been thru it all before. We all know what you
believe, yet rather than participate constructively in
discussions, you interject repeatedly with your own personal
dogma, and distract and interupt threads that your dogma should
simply and naturally exclude you from. And you do it in this
way that looks down on others, while professing to be
"all-embracing".
"Hook, line, and sinker." Personal comments . . . Why do that?
I must wonder if you are truly at peace.
[/font]
#Post#: 3555--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Piper Date: January 4, 2016, 2:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Sigh . . .
Note, I was warned of two new posts, before submitting the
above.
I have a familiar headache now, so I think I'll be on my way for
today.
[/font]
#Post#: 3558--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: Oneoff Date: January 4, 2016, 6:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=403.msg3553#msg3553
date=1451939303]
I too am bored. I would consider it a favor if you left me
alone so I never heard from you or of you again. If others
wish to continue talking with you, that is their affair; but I
would ask them not to mention you to me. Yes, it has reached
that point.
[/quote]
Having noted your own MO of highlighting successive parts of
someone's post and then refuting them, all I was doing was
having a try at the same procedure.
But I found it a futile occupation, which is why I got bored
before completing the task.
#Post#: 3560--------------------------------------------------
Re: Something Out of Nothing
By: bradley Date: January 4, 2016, 10:23 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
^Your love of divisiveness amazes me sometimes. I pray the
Lord would visit you.
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