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#Post#: 3528--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 1, 2016, 8:03 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Hi, Kerry. :)
>
> Was reading, and not sure I understand.
>
> How could the Judge be judged? Or is it that IF Jesus had
disobeyed (as we all have), THEN He would have faced judgement?
--- End Quote ---
I think Jesus was trusted with the power to judge only because
he submitted his will completely to the Father's. I base that
on:
John 5:30 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge:
and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but
the will of the Father which hath sent me.
There is a false kind of judgment and a true kind. The false
kind condemns. The true kind sees flaws but extends mercy and
provides solutions. The false kind is accusatory and is
"justice without mercy." That is a satanic kind of judgment.
The true kind extends mercy, knowing the future can be better
than the past, no errors need be permanent.
The individual saint can also come to render the correct type of
judgment, I think; but only when he puts aside self-interest as
a motive in his decisions, the type of self-interest that we
could call partiality. I base that belief on:
Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with
me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with
my Father in his throne.
Being partial is, of course, a failure to love our neighbor as
ourselves.
--- Quote ---
> I can't see that in His perfect unity with the Father He stood
much chance of failure (just as that is when WE fail-- when we
deny or defy the Spirit within), yet Jesus was, on earth, FULLY
human, so He faced temptation just as we do. So, yes, I suppose
He might, in His humanity, have failed. But, in His perfect
unity ("I and my father are one."), Jesus, though tempted, had
every power available to man to overcome. Perhaps we feel weak,
but are much stronger than we or anyone knows. He who is within
us is stronger than he who is in the world, and that includes
self.
--- End Quote ---
It may be possible, at times, to think of doctrines as abstract
truths or falsehoods and forget that good doctrines are meant to
produce good results. The doctrine of the Unity of Jesus with
the Father is meant to instruct us, I believe, in how we should
strive to live. His prayer for his disciples was:
John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in
the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine
own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as
we are.
My "big" problem with the doctrine of whether Jesus was God and
is God lies in how some people tend to see Jesus in being so
different from them that it leaves them off the hook. They say
(to themselves, if not aloud), "But Jesus was God, so of course
he succeeded. I can't be expected to do what he did." This can
become an excuse for allowing sins to remain unaddressed. If
we know the Will of God and do not do it, we are guilty of
rebellion. If we know that the Will of God is that we love one
another and fail to do it, fail to even try, we are spitting on
the Cross in my opinion.
It is God's Will that He share His Glory by imparting it to
those who overcome. Perhaps they were sinners in the past; but
if they turn from sin and become righteous, they are no longer
sinners. They become righteous -- being made right, being made
just -- justified. Actually made right. Those who think they
can treat others who are also God's children with contempt and
still share in God's Glory are mistaken. We must seek unity
and harmony.
John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them;
that they may be one, even as we are one:
There is some irony in the situation since the person who craves
to be glorified is still pursuing self-interest.
--- Quote ---
>
> Was Jesus afraid, as well as tempted, in Gethsemane? I think
if we believe He did not fully dread crucifixion as anyone in
human form would, we remove His humanity.
--- End Quote ---
Dread perhaps. Fear? He knew it would pass. It was not
going to last forever. I can see him dreading it; but I see
him followining his own advice.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not
able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to
destroy both soul and body in hell.
--- Quote ---
> We may not fear, or we may even welcome death, but . . . HOW
we die can still be feared. Pain in the human form can be sheer
agonizing horror. The way Jesus died, sheer dreadful torture.
Jesus' overcoming, overpowering determination to "do this!" must
have forced Him to face His very human fear of suffering. To
endure what was not endurable, save with the grace of God our
Father.
>
> Courage is not being fearless; courage is staying the course
of obedience to God, even when we are 'sore afraid.' Courage is
action, despite fear, in the face of fear.
--- End Quote ---
Let me add --Jesus remained true to the commandment to love our
neighbors. He prayed for the soldiers nailing him to the cross.
If God is Love, and if man is made in the image and likeness of
God, is not the proper nature of Man meant to be Love also?
Can we believe that and embrace that, holding fast to it despite
what is going on around us no matter how horrid? Or does
"self" become fearful or even hateful?
--- Quote ---
> The Father tests us in this way, allows us to experience great
fear, despair, darkness, watches to see if we remain faithful.
We, in great suffering, are sorely tempted to "curse God and
die," yet we must be faithful as Jesus was faithful. We carry
that cross, we endure the taunts, the jibes, the separation,
isolation, the betrayals, the spitting, kicking crowds, and we
FOCUS on the cross, the crucifix, because the One who hangs
there is the One who gives us the strength and faith to
overcome. He feeds us, gives to us Water of Life. We have the
assurance we, too, will one day rise and leave these earthly
tribulations far behind. It is that Promise that helps us walk
through the fire and the flood; we walk, but are not burned,
will not drown.
>
> If we are sore afraid, we grasp the divine determination
within us and we FIGHT.
> One foot after the other, one day after another, with that
cross on our weary backs.
>
> Jesus? Broken, but the greatest warrior. His path was paved
with sorrow, but He showed us how to carry our cross, how to
spit back at the darkness in the holiness of silent obedience,
submission, and determination.
>
> Jesus, I believe was fully divine, but for awhile was fully
human, first-born, and He leads both those before and after Him.
>
> That is how I see things, though I might wish such trials and
fears away. Though I might dread Gethsemane, it is there we are
closest to God, clinging desperately for Life. Seeking Real
Life, not life in these shadowlands. It is there we see how
fully our existence remains or will remain only because HE IS.
>
> I see Jesus as a righteous warrior, and we stand with Him or
we fall. Sin is never okay. Sin IS our battleground, because
sin is what nails us to the cross. Love sets us free.
--- End Quote ---
Sin, by how I see things, is the failure to love. If we value
the physical body so much that we allow our actions to be
motivated by fear or hate, we have allowed our identity as
children of God get lost. No mistake about it -- our physical
bodies can be idols. If we value them so much that we lose the
Love-Nature God gave us when they are threatened or in pain,
they become our idols.
I do not see how we can separate "God-out-there" from the
"God-Nature-within." It is all meant to be One. If we defile
what Spark of Divinity God has given us, we are valuing "self"
too much -- not perceiving true safety lies in achieving Unity
with the One. I think perhaps it is a delusion or illusion
that physical bodies are more powerful or important than the
spiritual reality.
It also seems to me that much of the suffering of this world is
brought about by mankind's idolatry about their own bodies.
Falling into fear and hate makes things worse not better. It is
a madness that seems to grip the world. Strike out at others if
you are afraid yourself -- thus we see today growing tensions
among Muslims and Christians. If you think someone of a
different race or religion may want to kill you, the madness
says kill him before he gets the chance to kill you. Kill him
and ask questions later. I think you can also see how bad
leaders, both religious and political, often appeal to the worst
in people, using fear as a motive. A small incident can lead
to something worse; and that then can lead to something worse
still. Things can keep getting worse until you see genocide.
All this can happen because people panic about what might
happen to their bodies.
People's happiness is a fragile thing. If you see a smiling
happy person on the street, do you realize how easy it is to get
him to become unhappy? I'm not advising you to do it; but some
people can be rattled by the tiniest of insults. Some are
rattled by imaginary insults even -- if they think you're
looking at them wrong. Certainly you could rattle most people
by slapping them. You can turn a happy person into an unhappy
one very easily. You and everyone else they meet have that
power over them. Surely that is not quite sane even if it is
ordinary.
Speaking again of judgment: How do we judge ourselves?
Should our happiness depend so much on what others do or what
happens to us in life that is out of our control? If so, I
imagine we are doomed to unhappiness in large part. Or should
we try to find that kind of peace that comes from doing what we
know is right and loving, no matter what others are doing or
what is happening to us that is out of our control?
#Post#: 3529--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 1, 2016, 8:29 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: James link ---
>
> Heb-Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up
prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him
that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he
feared; 8Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the
things which he suffered;
>
> As I see it Kerry Jesus was never born the perfect Son, he did
not have a natural inclination to obey.
--- End Quote ---
I think I agree. If Jesus had been born perfect (complete,
whole, or in Hebrew shalom), we couldn't say he achieved
anything in his life on this earth. I'm not sure about the
"natural inclination to obey." It seems to me though that
temptation to sin isn't real temptation unless have the
inclination to disobey. A choice seems to have been made
shortly after his baptism and the descent of the Spirit:
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan:
for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him
only shalt thou serve.
I do believe that every time we choose correctly, the urge to do
good becomes stronger while the urge to do evil becomes weaker.
Similarly the urge to do evil becomes stronger every time we
choose to do evil and the urge to do good becomes weaker.
--- Quote ---
> One of the first things Jesus suffered was to come to the
realization that he was limited on earth and that he could also
like Adam fail in his task. I do not believe this verse means
the final death he undertook but the death he would have known
if he had not kept under his body.
--- End Quote ---
Can you go into more detail on what kind of death he would known
if he had disobeyed? I'm not sure I understand you fully.
--- Quote ---
> Its one thing to be the prophetic lamb of God, it is another
to walk out the prophesy.
--- End Quote ---
This is hard for me to sort out in my mind. While I can see
Jesus as the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world
-- that is one way I see him. I do not see that as applying
to his death on the cross. He didn't die on the cross at the
foundation of the world. The death as the Lamb of God in
physical terms had to be worked out and achieved. Could he have
failed? I think so. If he had not said, "Not my will but
thine be done," he would have failed.
I think it might be minimalizing what he did if we say he
couldn't have failed. Nothing can be reckoned to have much
value if you can do it without any risk to yourself. I think
he took a great risk and to his credit he was willing to. And
returning to Hebrews, what reason would he have to "fear" if
there was no risk involved?
#Post#: 3534--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Piper
Date: January 2, 2016, 2:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thanks for the responses above, Kerry. Much to think about. I
hadn't thought of how the physical body could be an idol. We
all want to be healthy and comfortable, but it's a good point
that even in suffering we must maintain the love nature. Easier
said than done. I sometimes feel like a rabid dog when sick.
Light sensitive, noise sensitive-- best at times I be like Puff
the Magic Dragon and slip into my cave. I wonder if I don't
have a bit of Aspergers, myself. All my sensitivities, too
much, too many. (Maybe that's where grandson got it! Ha.)
Sometimes, I know I idolize youth too much. It fled so quickly,
and I miss many aspects of it. Of course those aspects are all
physical. What is the verse about our bodies wasting daily, but
. . .
--- Quote ---
> 2 Corinthians 4:16 (NIV)
>
> 16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are
wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.
--- End Quote ---
Yes, good to remember we are stewards of our bodies, but, no,
they simply will not last forever, while more important things
will.
So much is vanity. What do we really NEED to live good lives,
to be happy or at least content? Much less, I think, than all
we tend to saddle ourselves down with.
Simplify, simplify!
--- Quote ---
> Kerry: My "big" problem with the doctrine of whether Jesus
was God and is God lies in how some people tend to see Jesus in
being so different from them that it leaves them off the hook.
They say (to themselves, if not aloud), "But Jesus was God, so
of course he succeeded. I can't be expected to do what he did."
This can become an excuse for allowing sins to remain
unaddressed. If we know the Will of God and do not do it, we
are guilty of rebellion. If we know that the Will of God is
that we love one another and fail to do it, fail to even try, we
are spitting on the Cross in my opinion.
--- End Quote ---
I understand. The whole, "Jesus loves me just as I am" mindset.
Granted, He always loves us, but He wants us to grow beyond what
we once were, what we are, and mature spiritually.
The Church teaches that, during the incarnation, Jesus was fully
human and faced the same trials and temptations as we do. Jesus
was "God in flesh," but I did note this in the Catechism:
--- Quote ---
> 246 . . . And, since the Father has through generation given
to the only-begotten Son everything that belongs to the Father,
except being Father, the Son has also eternally from the Father,
from whom he is eternally born, that the Holy Spirit proceeds
from the Son.”
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I think we could get into "hypostatic union" (another topic),
which describes the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in
one hypostasis, or individual existence. Sounds complicated,
but nonetheless, it IS stressed Jesus was fully human as we are
human. It's critical, I agree, to know He very much was as we
are, and He showed us the correct path as a human being. We
can't excuse sin by saying, "Oh, but Jesus was God!", because we
really don't have that option.
--- Quote ---
> Philippians 2:5-8 (NIV)
>
> 5 In your relationships with one another, have the same
mindset as Christ Jesus:
>
> 6 Who, being in very nature God,
> did not consider equality with God something to be used to his
own advantage;
> 7 rather, he made himself nothing
> by taking the very nature of a servant,
> being made in human likeness.
> 8 And being found in appearance as a man,
> he humbled himself
> by becoming obedient to death—
> even death on a cross!
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 3538--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: James
Date: January 3, 2016, 3:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Kerry-He didn't die on the cross at the foundation of the world.
He did not but just as Isaac was a dead man walking (but for the
intervention of God) so was Jesus. He was the prophesied Lamb
of God, he was born to die. That's my way of seeing it.
You also mention how could Jesus die. Yet you speak of the
reality that he could fail. If he was unable to fail how could
he really be suffering like us and therefore be able to succour
us?
Therefore my argument is that if he could fail then in fact he
could choose not life in God but something else. As I see it
God said choose life or death, blessing or cursing. If Jesus did
not choose to follow through as prescribed by his father he
would be choosing death, that is the death he prayed not to
have. As I see things.
#Post#: 3540--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: January 3, 2016, 9:25 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
James,
If mortal man were able to resist the temptation to pretend that
he were not limited by mortality he would not even ask, let
alone try to answer, the questions that lead to "the way I see
things".
Ours is to trust without knowing.....not to pretend and then
postulate.
#Post#: 3541--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 4, 2016, 12:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: James link ---
>
> Kerry-He didn't die on the cross at the foundation of the
world.
>
> He did not but just as Isaac was a dead man walking (but for
the intervention of God) so was Jesus. He was the prophesied
Lamb of God, he was born to die. That's my way of seeing it.
>
> You also mention how could Jesus die. Yet you speak of the
reality that he could fail. If he was unable to fail how could
he really be suffering like us and therefore be able to succour
us?
>
> Therefore my argument is that if he could fail then in fact he
could choose not life in God but something else. As I see it
God said choose life or death, blessing or cursing. If Jesus did
not choose to follow through as prescribed by his father he
would be choosing death, that is the death he prayed not to
have. As I see things.
>
--- End Quote ---
What if "God" was not telling the truth there? You are
assuming that the choice as given in the Bible is the truth.
What if God tells us things to keep us down and under His
control? What if we could actually compete with Him? Maybe
even outdo Him? What if God is like men, afraid of
competition?
The only way to answer that question is by faith. We either
have faith that God loves us and isn't afraid of any competition
-- that what He tells us is to benefit us, not Him.
I ask you, James, what was in the mind of Eve when she succumbed
to temptation? We may not be able to be sure; but we can
theorize about it. I say, though, whatever theory we could up
to explain her decision, she showed a lack of faith in God.
She had more faith in what the serpent told her. Why would that
be? How could that be? Did she "invent" a wrong idea about
God? Did she think God was trying to keep her inferior by
withholding knowledge from her? In short, did she have an idol
in her mind as her god because she had wrong ideas about God?
Another thing I'd say is fairly certain is that she lacked
"fear" of God.
What does this mean, James? I know, I have so many questions.
Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in
Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be
equal with God:
7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form
of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
Eve was trying to be like God -- perhaps trying to rob Him. Why
was it wrong for her to want to be equal with God but not for
Jesus?
And whatever does Paul mean there by advising his readers to
think the way Jesus did? Is he saying his readers can be equal
with God and ought not think it robbery? Believe it or not,
I say Paul is saying just that. The explanation lies in verse
7. The person who is "equal with God" is willing to take on
the form of a servant. He is like Jesus too in that he is
willing to be led like a sheep to the slaughter -- or to use
another metaphor, to be a shepherd willing to lay down his life
for his sheep. God Himself somehow is like that -- God is Love.
I'd say Eve was motivated by pride but Jesus like Moses by
humility.
Here's something else to ponder. When Jesus said not my will
but thine be done, was he telling God he was not trying to usurp
God's place? That he would leave it up to God whether he
should become equal with God? Was Jesus following the advice
he had given others?
Luke 14:7 And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden,
when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto
them.
8 When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in
the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden
of him;
9 And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this
man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room.
10 But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room;
that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee,
Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the
presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
11 For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that
humbleth himself shall be exalted.
I think that's it. I don't Jesus had a sin to repent of at that
point where his "will" was telling him to rebel at what God
wanted. Rather I think he was saying what he wanted personally
wasn't that important. He wanted to do whatever God thought
was best. Yes, I think he knew God would most likely exalt him
-- but if Jesus had wanted to be exalted, he would have failed.
Am I making any sense?
#Post#: 3544--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: January 4, 2016, 3:55 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Oneoff link ---
>
> James,
> If mortal man were able to resist the temptation to pretend
that he were not limited by mortality he would not even ask, let
alone try to answer, the questions that lead to "the way I see
things".
> Ours is to trust without knowing.....not to pretend and then
postulate.
>
--- End Quote ---
Unless you're James or Kerry.
HTML http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy123/artisational/Smileys/thkidding_zps92c20777.gif(or<br
/>at least pretending to)
#Post#: 3547--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Kerry
Date: January 4, 2016, 8:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Thanks for the responses above, Kerry. Much to think about.
I hadn't thought of how the physical body could be an idol. We
all want to be healthy and comfortable, but it's a good point
that even in suffering we must maintain the love nature. Easier
said than done. I sometimes feel like a rabid dog when sick.
Light sensitive, noise sensitive-- best at times I be like Puff
the Magic Dragon and slip into my cave. I wonder if I don't
have a bit of Aspergers, myself. All my sensitivities, too
much, too many.
--- End Quote ---
The blessing is being able to observe these things in yourself
as they're happening. How we feel and the emotions we have are
often great clues about what's happening in reality. People
may find it hard to believe; but I think I'm very sensitive too.
I don't take my emotions too seriously though since I know
they go up and down. It depends on what's happening around me
in large part. I think someone would be stark raving mad if he
was happy when sick. Feeling bad is a clue telling us,
"Something is wrong. Warning, warning!"
When I feel bad, I ask if I did something wrong and got bad
results. Did I create a problem that's making me feel bad? I
also sometimes ask if I brought it on myself by associating with
the wrong people and giving them power over me. That's could
be like bringing venomous snakes into your house because you
feel sorry they're cold so you bring them in to warm them up.
Then they bite you. Am I doing that, I ask myself? Am I
showing compassion to people who will bite me if I do that?
This is like throwing pearls to the swine. Should I be too
surprised if they rend me -- or is it partly my own fault? Why
blame them if I helped cause it? If I feel annoyed by
someone, is it because I want to be around them even though they
are annoying people? If I want that, I guess I should expect
to be annoyed. Then I ask if things have happened out of my
control? If so, is there anything I can do to fix it? All
this "thinking" over feeling bad -- but feeling bad is a sign
that something is not going right. Our emotions that seem so
annoying are like whines or clunks cars give us telling us, "Fix
me, fix me."
Positive emotions can also be analyzed. They tell us something
is going right. If you find you did something right and it
creates joy, that tells you it's safe to do it again. It also
tells you others are doing things right around you, at least for
the most part.
--- Quote ---
> Yes, good to remember we are stewards of our bodies, but, no,
they simply will not last forever, while more important things
will.
--- End Quote ---
The conclusion I reach is that having our physical bodies the
way they operate now, the way they tend to give out and cause
problems, makes them not worth having. It would be much
better to have bodies that didn't give out and cause problems.
Our bodies as vehicles of spirit ought to behave as the spirit
wants.
--- Quote ---
> So much is vanity. What do we really NEED to live good lives,
to be happy or at least content? Much less, I think, than all
we tend to saddle ourselves down with.
>
> Simplify, simplify!
--- End Quote ---
How true. Some people would be happier if they just went
through their house and gave away the stuff they haven't used in
the last year and probably never will use again. I think it
would be grand to be able to plan your life giving away your
things as you go and right before you die, you give away the
last things. Job said he came into the world naked. Revise
that ti read: "I came into the world not owning anything and
want to leave the same way."
I understand. The whole, "Jesus loves me just as I am" mindset.
Granted, He always loves us, but He wants us to grow beyond what
we once were, what we are, and mature spiritually.
--- Quote ---
> The Church teaches that, during the incarnation, Jesus was
fully human and faced the same trials and temptations as we do.
Jesus was "God in flesh," but I did note this in the Catechism:
>
> I think we could get into "hypostatic union" (another topic),
which describes the union of Christ's humanity and divinity in
one hypostasis, or individual existence. Sounds complicated,
but nonetheless, it IS stressed Jesus was fully human as we are
human. It's critical, I agree, to know He very much was as we
are, and He showed us the correct path as a human being. We
can't excuse sin by saying, "Oh, but Jesus was God!", because we
really don't have that option.
--- End Quote ---
The logic of that theology (fully human and fully God) doesn't
make sense to me. There is a sign at Dominos that reminds me of
that. The sign says the pizzas are made with 100% mozzarella
cheese with a hint of . . . some other cheese.
The topic is worth delving into I think but mostly if it advises
us how to allow God to work in us. There should be a union of
God and man is us too. Anyone who believes he has the Holy
Spirit should believe that, I'd think. The goal should be to
allow the Spirit to fill us. If we see bodies as vehicles of
the spirit, what spirit should it be in those vehicles? Are
there any places in ourselves we have told the Spirit is
off-limits? If so, something is amiss and remains to be
exorcised (if that is the right word). So who or what is
inhabiting the "new spiritual body" when someone achieves
sainthood? I think it is the "image and likeness" of God which
God imparted to man. It is the Sacred Breath God breathed into
Adam. It is like the wind, going hither and thither; but all
of the wind is part of the air. All the Sacred Breath is part
of God. On this, I'm probably closer to Orthodox theology than
Catholic. One saint said, "God became man so man could become
God." It defies logical analysis as far as I can see.
Catholic theologians sometimes get too logical, I think,
thinking logic can explain things. But sometimes things are the
way they are because that's the way they are. Logic doesn't
explain it. And really ultimately, logic can't explain
anything, not in the end. Logic and reason may tell us that
two plus two equals four -- but it can't explain why there are
two things here and two things there. All it explains is if A
is true and B is true, then C is true too; but it doesn't tell
us why A or B is true.
Some things don't have explanations. Indeed I think the best
things have no explanation. There is a kind of joy of just
existing. It is full of wonder not logic. Thus it is
"wonder-full." There is no logic that I know of that explains
why someone would feel joy by having a vision of Jesus. I
cannot explain the visions that have brought me the most joy.
Nor can I explain why honking geese or graceful deer bring me
joy. It's just the way it is. But the joy tells me something
is going right. Somehow things are going right. And perhaps
those moments come by allowing them to come without trying to
make them happen. Let God be God. Be filled with wonder at His
Creation. I tend to enjoy reading about the saints' lives and
how God worked in their lives more than the logical things
Catholic theologians write. God dwelt in them -- I can see
that. Is that a hypostatic union?
#Post#: 3548--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: January 4, 2016, 9:41 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Karma plays a big part, but in understanding that 'what goes
around comes around' we need to understand that cause and effect
do not always derive from the face value, obvious,
interrelationships, that others think they can see.
#Post#: 3550--------------------------------------------------
Re: Sore Afraid
DIR By: Piper
Date: January 4, 2016, 12:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Forums, it seems, always move too fast for me. People tend to
breeze right through, prepare, eat, digest, and move on to the
next meal before I've even cut my meat into pieces small enough
to manage. I am hungry, yes, but as in life, as when I was a
child, I am so often the last one left at the table, with half
my meal still waiting. Then and now, I chew very slowly.
People. The history of my life has taught me not to trust
easily, that people hurt and betray, yet my faith has taught me
to forgive, without reservation--even regardless of apology by
the offending party. I lay it down. I try again. I let the
people who hurt me, who disrespect and betray me, who trample my
pearls, trash my hard-won faith, back into my life-- because I
was taught to forgive, and I am good at willingly forgetting.
However, the conundrum is that by doing so, I find myself in the
same sinking ship, over and over. 70 x7, yes . . . But.
Forgiving does not mean deliberately placing oneself in harm's
way. And, while I believe in forgiveness, I absolutely believe
in the value of sincere apology. The key word is 'sincere',
because apology stems from repentance, and God, Himself, asks
that we repent when we have done wrong. If we can not apologize
after an offense, it is because we are either too proud or we
feel no repentance.
I wish to learn. I have faith there exist things to be learned.
Certainly God has revealed Himself, in nature, in Scripture, in
the still of the night when my spirit is free, but mostly,
mostly, in Jesus. To say God has not, does not try to reveal
Himself, seems blasphemy to me. Yes, in what is a mystery to
me, Jesus became man, walked and lived and breathed, fully
human, bleeding. He also, I fully believe--in what is also a
mystery to me--was God revealing Himself to man, that man might
better know and understand him. Can I know or understand God
perfectly? No, but there is no better revelation of God the
Father than God the Son.
I repeat myself, and none believe, but I embrace Catholicism,
study what She teaches, because God confirmed that I should.
Obviously, I can learn from Her.
Believing what the Church teaches about the divinity of Christ,
and believing what my heart shows to me, I can not look at Jesus
without seeing God, because Jesus represents everything good
that there is to love in my God. His essence, pure, loving,
forgiving, humble, gentle, yet strong and protective . . . I
could go on. His perfection shines like no other. Who can
fault Him? It's that simple. In Jesus, I see God most clearly.
Did God not want it that way? Did God, Himself, not learn much
about His creature, man, through the incarnation of the Son? To
create is one thing, but to BE the created opens many doors to
mutual understanding and empathy. How many places can God be at
one time? THAT, indeed, is a mystery!
God forgive me if I err by loving the Son as I love the Father.
I know no other way. Is the Father jealous of love given the
Son? Is the Son jealous of love given the Father? It seems
both the Father and Son are only ever jealous 'for' and not
jealous 'of'. Jealousy is a base and vile human emotion.
Yes, God dwells in the saints, in men, and it is a union of
sorts. Of course. We are all called to that union. The Trinity
relationship is seen as that of family. We are called, adopted
into that same family.
All questions reached climax for me in the matter of rightful
authority, especially that of teaching authority. Who has
divine authority? To whom did/does God give authority? To whom
did Jesus give authority? We can all share beliefs and ideas,
but who has authority such as not even the power of hell can
overcome? Most people, though, balk at the very word
'authority.' Most people, it seems, in matters of faith,
doctrine, and religion, wish to be their own authority. My
baptism into utter religious confusion made me immune to wishing
to be my own authority. On my own, I know nothing. I pleaded,
the Spirit answered, and the Father confirmed my direction. I
proceed by faith. If there is error being taught, those in
authority are accountable. Therefore, I trust they proceed with
great caution. Every word must be tested.
Jesus is head of His overall church, and God will not forsake
His people, wherever they are. Not one slips from His hand.
For now, I am where I am. I will not be moved.
I realize others may not understand the words of my heart. Just
as I am often left bewildered by the words of men, and the
seeming underlying currents that can be felt but not captured.
For example, I've no clue what the previous 'karma' post means,
though I've read it many times over. What inspired the author
to say what he said, and what is the author trying to say? I've
no clue.
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