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#Post#: 3491--------------------------------------------------
December 25th
By: Deborah Date: December 22, 2015, 10:35 am
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Why do we celebrate the birth of Jesus on December 25th?
Actually, not all Christians do; the Eastern Orthodox churches,
following a different calendar, will have their Christmas on
January 7th.
But it’s a good question. After all, we aren’t even certain of
the exact year of Jesus’ birth, let alone the day and the month!
Two thousand years ago people were far less interested in
birthdays than we are, and of course there were no birth
certificates. Nevertheless, ingenious minds have attempted to
work it out, using the information given in Luke’s Gospel. The
Jewish priests worked to a rota, and we know that the priest
Zechariah was a member of the division of Abijah, who were on
duty in the Temple in early June. We also know that the angel
Gabriel visited Mary when Elizabeth was six months pregnant. So,
if Zechariah’s wife Elizabeth fell pregnant the night he got
back home, and if Mary also fell pregnant straight away after
the angel’s visit, and if Jesus was born on his due date forty
weeks later… we arrive at early September.
As you may have noticed, there are three ‘ifs’ in that sentence!
And actually they are quite big ‘ifs’. We cannot assume that
either Elizabeth or Mary conceived immediately (although they
may have done); Luke is not as specific as that. And as all
parents know, very few babies are born exactly when they are
‘due’! On top of all that, there isn’t even any certainty about
the timing of the priestly rota! No records have survived, and
there are various methods of calculation arriving at widely
differing answers.
In consequence, any date that we choose for our celebration is
going to be completely arbitrary. So why did the Church settle
on December 25th? They took over the Roman winter festival, the
Saturnalia. (That being the case, we can hardly complain when
unbelievers try to take it back…)
But December 25th is just as good as any other date – and
actually not that inappropriate (at least in the Northern
hemisphere). For it falls just after the winter solstice, which
is the darkest time of the year and an ideal time for
celebrating the coming of Him who is the Light of the world
(John 1:9). At the end of December, although winter is only just
beginning (and the third Monday in January has been described as
‘the most depressing day of the year’), the days are already
starting to get longer again, and the eventual coming of spring
is thereby heralded. Similarly, the hope kindled by Jesus’
coming had to wait a long time (over thirty years) for
fulfilment – but His birth had set the process in motion.
So happy Christmas!
#Post#: 3492--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Kerry Date: December 23, 2015, 6:59 am
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My guess is Jesus was born during Sukkot, the Feast of
Tabernacles. That usually occurs sometime in late September or
early October.
#Post#: 3495--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Deborah Date: December 26, 2015, 2:25 am
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I am currently reading a new book, The Great Christ Comet:
HTML http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Christ-Comet-Revealing-Bethlehem/dp/1433542137/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The author argues from astronomical data that Christ must have
been born in October, 6BC. Fascinating!
#Post#: 3497--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2015, 5:56 am
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[quote author=Deborah link=topic=397.msg3495#msg3495
date=1451118336]
I am currently reading a new book, The Great Christ Comet:
HTML http://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Christ-Comet-Revealing-Bethlehem/dp/1433542137/ref=tmm_hrd_title_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=&sr=
The author argues from astronomical data that Christ must have
been born in October, 6BC. Fascinating!
[/quote]Does the author give a theory why Herod couldn't see
this star and follow it himself?
#Post#: 3500--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Deborah Date: December 26, 2015, 6:34 am
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I haven't finished the book yet, but I can tell you that the
theory is based on both Matthew 2:1-12 and Revelation 12:1-5.
The comet would have become visible in the constellation Virgo
(in the eastern sky) and would have appeared to cross the sky to
'set' in the West - at which point its tail would have been
pointing vertically upwards, like a sceptre rising out of the
west.
The Jews would have seen the comet as well. But to interpret it
as a sign of the Messiah, you would have to combine a knowledge
of astrology (to know the significance of the constellation
Virgo and thus interpret the appearance of the comet in her
'body' as a birth) and a knowledge of the prophecy of Balaam
(Numbers 24:17) AND you would have to be living well to the east
of Judea. To anyone living in Judea, the comet would have set
over the sea and the 'sceptre' would have appeared to rise out
of the sea. If it signified anything 'royal' to the Jews, they
would have assumed it meant a new Roman Emperor.
Also, Herod was not a Jew and didn't know the Scriptures (he had
to get 'professional' advice to find out where the Messiah would
be born). Devout Jews knew the prophecies, but would have
scorned anything astrological.
#Post#: 3504--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2015, 8:07 am
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[quote author=Deborah link=topic=397.msg3500#msg3500
date=1451133277]
I haven't finished the book yet, but I can tell you that the
theory is based on both Matthew 2:1-12 and Revelation 12:1-5.
The comet would have become visible in the constellation Virgo
(in the eastern sky) and would have appeared to cross the sky to
'set' in the West - at which point its tail would have been
pointing vertically upwards, like a sceptre rising out of the
west.
The Jews would have seen the comet as well. But to interpret it
as a sign of the Messiah, you would have to combine a knowledge
of astrology (to know the significance of the constellation
Virgo and thus interpret the appearance of the comet in her
'body' as a birth) and a knowledge of the prophecy of Balaam
(Numbers 24:17)[/quote]I have some difficulty with this. Does
the prophecy of Balaam refer to Jesus? Did Jesus attack the
Moabites? Did Jesus make Edom a possession?
Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him,
but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a
Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of
Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a
possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
The Jews say this refers to King David.
2 Samuel 8:2 And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line,
casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he
to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so
the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
The next verse applies to King Messiah, according to the Jews;
but it remains unfulfilled since they say the most prominent
city of the Edomites means Rome and that King Messiah will
destroy it.
19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and
shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
But how does this fit in with Jesus? I do not see.
[quote]AND you would have to be living well to the east of
Judea. To anyone living in Judea, the comet would have set over
the sea and the 'sceptre' would have appeared to rise out of the
sea. If it signified anything 'royal' to the Jews, they would
have assumed it meant a new Roman Emperor.[/quote]How could a
comet or even a star as we know stars come to rest over a house?
That suggests to me that the "star" was a spiritual star, not
a physical star visible with physical eyes. That also tells me
why Herod couldn't follow it himself.
[quote]Also, Herod was not a Jew[/quote]
The point is debatable. I can see both sides of the argument.
His parents had been Edomites who converted to Judaism; but it's
not certain if their conversion was real or for show.
[quote]and didn't know the Scriptures (he had to get
'professional' advice to find out where the Messiah would be
born). Devout Jews knew the prophecies, but would have scorned
anything astrological.[/quote]
This is debatable too. There's a lot of "astrology" in the
Bible. Using it to predict the future is forbidden, but
studying it and using it for other purposes isn't. Thus the
four beasts or cherubim correspond to the four fixed signs of
the zodiac.
I believe the magi were probably descendants of Abraham through
the sons he went to the east, descendants with spiritual gifts
including the ability to see spiritual things.
I think Origen was the first Christian to link the prophecy of
Balaam with Jesus and the Star of Bethlehem; but St John
Chrysostom was more on track I think when he wrote:
How then, tell me, did the star point out a spot so confined,
just the space of a manger and shed, unless it left that height
and came down, and stood over the very head of the young child?
And at this the evangelist was hinting when he said, "Lo, the
star went before them, till it came and stood over where the
young Child was."
#Post#: 3505--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Deborah Date: December 26, 2015, 8:43 am
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A comet can 'point out' a spot on the horizon (something an
ordinary star can't do).
As for the rest, I think you'd better read the book yourself.
#Post#: 3506--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Kerry Date: December 26, 2015, 11:20 am
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[quote author=Deborah link=topic=397.msg3505#msg3505
date=1451141009]
A comet can 'point out' a spot on the horizon (something an
ordinary star can't do).
As for the rest, I think you'd better read the book yourself.
[/quote]It doesn't sound like something I'd spend money on.
Think about this some more. The point on the horizon would be
relative to your own position. On a day when the sun rises due
east, where it seemingly appears on the horizon will depend on
your location. Many churches can be built even in one town
oriented due east and would point to different spots on the
horizon.
And about this:
[quote]The comet would have become visible in the constellation
Virgo (in the eastern sky) and would have appeared to cross the
sky to 'set' in the West - at which point its tail would have
been pointing vertically upwards, like a sceptre rising out of
the west.[/quote]If you kept looking at such a comet, it would
look more like a sceptre falling to the earth in the west. And
by no means could it come to rest over a house. This "star" is
said to have moved in front of them and then stopped: "and, lo,
the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it
came and stood over where the young child was." In my mind,
that does not describe the motion of a comet or star.
#Post#: 3511--------------------------------------------------
Re: December 25th
By: Deborah Date: December 27, 2015, 8:51 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=397.msg3504#msg3504
date=1451138834]
I have some difficulty with this. Does the prophecy of Balaam
refer to Jesus? Did Jesus attack the Moabites? Did Jesus make
Edom a possession?
Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him,
but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a
Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of
Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a
possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
The Jews say this refers to King David.
2 Samuel 8:2 And he smote Moab, and measured them with a line,
casting them down to the ground; even with two lines measured he
to put to death, and with one full line to keep alive. And so
the Moabites became David's servants, and brought gifts.
The next verse applies to King Messiah, according to the Jews;
but it remains unfulfilled since they say the most prominent
city of the Edomites means Rome and that King Messiah will
destroy it.
19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and
shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
But how does this fit in with Jesus? I do not see.
[/quote]
What Jews today think is not so relevant. Many Jews of Jesus'
time (such as the Essenes) did regard this prophecy as
Messianic, because David did not completely fulfil it. Moab and
Edom later regained their independence.
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=397.msg3506#msg3506
date=1451150411]
It doesn't sound like something I'd spend money on. Think about
this some more. The point on the horizon would be relative to
your own position. On a day when the sun rises due east, where
it seemingly appears on the horizon will depend on your
location. Many churches can be built even in one town
oriented due east and would point to different spots on the
horizon.
[/quote]
It would indeed have been relative to the position of the Magi -
which made it a sign for them but not for anyone else.
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