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#Post#: 507--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 18, 2014, 6:01 am
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=39.msg503#msg503
date=1418863231]
She still doesn't explain why the man was born blind. She makes
an argument saying it could be interpreted different ways; but
she still dodges explaining why he was born blind.
All Jesus said was the man's blindness was not caused by
himself or his parents. He did not say birth defects were never
caused by the sin of the individual or his parents. He said in
this case, it was not like that.
[/quote]
But, I didn't ask why he was born blind, I asked if God made the
man blind (as the passage appeared to suggest) was God being
good.
The important thing in this thread is that Ms Sims research
suggests that the traditional translation suggests God was the
cause of the man's blindness, but that a better translation
removes the blame from God.
My view is that a good God would not cause a man to be born
blind. Ms Sim's research allows me to keep that view.
Regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 509--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Kerry Date: December 18, 2014, 6:31 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=39.msg507#msg507
date=1418904117]
But, I didn't ask why he was born blind, I asked if God made the
man blind (as the passage appeared to suggest) was God being
good.[/quote]
No cause is given at all. If it "suggests" to some that God
made the man blind it can't be right, that alternative should
be dismissed as not worth considering as an alternative.
Even Scriptures that more explicitly suggest God strikes people
with illness should not be read that way.
[quote]The important thing in this thread is that Ms Sims
research suggests that the traditional translation suggests God
was the cause of the man's blindness, but that a better
translation removes the blame from God.
[/quote]I think Ms Sims is a little blind herself. She is
making an unwarranted assumption. I see no evil being ascribed
to God in the traditional translation because I'm not making the
same assumption.
[quote]My view is that a good God would not cause a man to be
born blind. Ms Sim's research allows me to keep that
view.[/quote]You're still stuck with why God would allow it and
what caused it.
I also find her take on it also makes the answer from Jesus to
the disciples' question somewhat illogical. Inserting the
"nevertheless" as she does is confusing -- "neither this man
sinned, nor his parents, nevertheless the works of God will be
displayed in him."
Does that mean if the man or his parents had sinned, Jesus
wouldn't have healed him? That the works of God would not be
displayed in him? I say that can't be. The very works of God
can correct anything.
What we should believe is that something caused the blindness.
Some force, energy or will exists in this world that causes
such things. God permits it to continue to exist because He
wishes to see it corrected. The alternative would be to get
angry and destroy. That is what I believe anyway.
I see another lesson in this story as well. We humans all too
often try to figure out who did what wrong and then assign
blame. That's largely a waste of time. It's better to try to
figure out how a problem can be fixed than to dwell on who did
what and assign blame.
#Post#: 511--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Alfie Date: December 18, 2014, 10:19 am
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=39.msg481#msg481
date=1418765344]
So I was right all along when I thought that 'Al' was our
brother who I thought I remembered as 'Patrick'.
So now my question to Al is "may I change your username to
'Patrick'?
[/quote]
sorry;
i missed this post
sure you can change my name to Patrick
i already got to use AL[pie] for my topic post --- lol
the old alphaomega3160 seems a bit long for chat posting etc
#Post#: 514--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Helen Date: December 18, 2014, 7:22 pm
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Off topic I know...but I love the little Irish Patrick
mouse...sorry Patrick if you wanted to stay hidden as Al !!
haha! :-*
#Post#: 520--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 19, 2014, 5:41 am
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=39.msg509#msg509
date=1418905874]
No cause is given at all. If it "suggests" to some that God
made the man blind it can't be right, that alternative should
be dismissed as not worth considering as an alternative.
[/quote]
Indeed. Which is why I asked the question is this the action of
a good being? If it is not, and I can't asee how it can be,
then it cannot be right. So, either the Bible is wrong. Or the
translation is wrong. Sim's explanation shows the tradtional
translation to be inadequate.
Therefore - using the newer, better translation removes all
these questions.
It leaves God as good and the Bible right and no mental
gymnastics needed.
[quote]
Even Scriptures that more explicitly suggest God strikes people
with illness
[/quote]
Show me one, please.
[quote]
You're still stuck with why God would allow it and what caused
it.
I also find her take on it also makes the answer from Jesus to
the disciples' question somewhat illogical. Inserting the
"nevertheless" as she does is confusing -- "neither this man
sinned, nor his parents, nevertheless the works of God will be
displayed in him."
Does that mean if the man or his parents had sinned, Jesus
wouldn't have healed him? That the works of God would not be
displayed in him? I say that can't be. The very works of God
can correct anything.
[/quote]
No it doesn't suggest that Jesus wouldn't have healed him - what
it is saying is that Jesus can heal someone where the condition
was caused by their sin AND He can heal someone where the
condition was not caused by their sin.
It gives support to the idea that God can heal regardless of
cause.
[quote]
What we should believe is that something caused the blindness.
Some force, energy or will exists in this world that causes
such things. God permits it to continue to exist because He
wishes to see it corrected. The alternative would be to get
angry and destroy. That is what I believe anyway. [/quote]
Sickness occurs because we are in a fallen world where the
Kingdom is now and not yet.
Mike HM
#Post#: 523--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Kerry Date: December 19, 2014, 6:28 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=39.msg520#msg520
date=1418989286]Therefore - using the newer, better translation
removes all these questions.[/quote]I can see revising a
translation if necessary; but I don't any need for it here. In
fact, I think the one you like is worse since Jesus' response is
not an answer to the question.
[quote]Show me one, please.
[/quote]I gave one in reply 18 above.
[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=39.msg503#msg503
date=1418863231]
Deuteronomy 28:18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the
fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of
thy sheep.
. . .
22 The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a
fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning,
and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they
shall pursue thee until thou perish.
. . .
32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another
people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for
them all the day long; and there shall be no might in thine
hand.
. . .
41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy
them; for they shall go into captivity.
[/quote]
#Post#: 530--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 19, 2014, 8:33 am
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=39.msg523#msg523
date=1418992122]
I gave one in reply 18 above.
[/quote]
Do you mean the deuteronomy verses?
#Post#: 532--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Amadeus Date: December 19, 2014, 9:10 am
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[font=courier]I speak here in the context of time to hopefully
communicate, even though perhaps for God, himself, there is no
such thing as time...
What if God effectively spoke everything that he spoke before
there were men and before there was written scripture and in his
making and speaking every possible result for men was already
considered and put into place with the making and the speaking?
Men then made (or make) the choices which caused (cause) the
results based on what God had spoken and made then those men
have caused (cause) the results.
As to the question: "If this is so, is this the action of a good
being?
The presumption (or belief) that God is good for me is
overriding, even if I am unable to explain it so everyone here
can understand why. Everything written for the benefit of man by
God (of God) has already been fully considered in his plan (all
spoken before).
The blind man of John 9 was a result in God's plan which
included the need to give God the glory whether there was or was
not blame on the part of specific individual people. So then in
considering again the question as to God being good or not we
can go again to elsewhere in scripture where it says: "And we
know that all things work together for good to them that love
God, to them who are the called according to his purpose." Rom
8:28
What caused the "result" (the blind man's existence as a blind
man is the result)? It came about as men acted or reacted to
what God had spoken.
[/font]
#Post#: 537--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Kerry Date: December 19, 2014, 10:11 pm
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=39.msg530#msg530
date=1418999600]
Do you mean the deuteronomy verses?
[/quote]Yes, that's what I meant.
#Post#: 542--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is this the action of a good being?
By: Kerry Date: December 21, 2014, 6:58 am
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Let me quote something from Wikipedia
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanny_Crosby
about Fanny Crosby:
At the age of eight Crosby wrote her first poem, which described
her condition. Crosby later remarked: "It seemed intended by
the blessed providence of God that I should be blind all my
life, and I thank him for the dispensation. If perfect earthly
sight were offered me tomorrow I would not accept it. I might
not have sung hymns to the praise of God if I had been
distracted by the beautiful and interesting things about me."
Crosby also once said, "when I get to heaven, the first face
that shall ever gladden my sight will be that of my Savior".
When asked about her blindness, Crosby was reported as saying
that "had it not been for her affliction she might not have so
good an education or have so great an influence, and certainly
not so fine a memory".
In all things, give thanks. Here is another "blind" person;
but at times I think he may "see" things we don't.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V8BJxxnPBNk
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