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#Post#: 3299--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 20, 2015, 1:17 pm
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--- Quote ---
> Kerry: Let's not forget that Paul studied with Gamaliel and
much of what Paul writes is standard Jewish theology.
--- End Quote ---
I did not know the Jews teach Purgatory. Interesting, and
relevant, it would seem.
#Post#: 3301--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 20, 2015, 2:34 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> I did not know the Jews teach Purgatory. Interesting, and
relevant, it would seem.
>
--- End Quote ---
Yes, they do. They also pray for the dead as do all the
Apostolic Churches. When I see areas where all the oldest
traditions match and agree, I tend to think they're right. When
they don't agree completely, I have a problem; but when they all
agree, I don't see the point in questioning it. The horrible
man-made "tradition" of the Sadducees was wiped out, and that
was a good thing in my opinion.
When Jews are talking or writing, I think we should assume they
are using words the way Jews listening or reading would
understand them. If we redefine words, passages in the Bible
get obscured.
Practices can be informative too. People can misunderstand
words and teachings; but if a practice is kept intact, how
people do things and what they do can tell us a lot about
correct doctrine. We know the early Church prayed for the dead
just as Jews did and still do. Why they did informs us about
what they believed. They may not have written it down; but the
practice tells us what they believed. Of all the doctrines
people disagree on, perhaps this one troubles me the most. It
troubles me when people don't believe in prayers for the dead
since that means they don't pray. How many souls might have
been helped by such prayers? This is a great tragedy to me.
#Post#: 3302--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 20, 2015, 3:32 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Definitely there is discipline, chastening in our earthly
life. I was considering all the verses in my above posts
together. Especially: "You are to deliver this man to Satan for
the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in
the day of the Lord Jesus."
>
> What flesh? Physical, spiritual, or both?
> " . . . the day of the Lord Jesus" is after this lifetime--
led me to wonder if it could be the destruction of either
spiritual flesh in this lifetime or physical flesh (death), with
chastening afterward.
>
> " . . . deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the
flesh" refers also to removing the man from the protection of
the church, where, left to Satan, his chatisement begins.
--- End Quote ---
I don't know what to think about this.
--- Quote ---
> But I thought it was God who chastises, not Satan. Very
confusing directive. Why would the church "deliver" anyone to
Satan? It would seem the man had delivered himself.
--- End Quote ---
As long as people in the church were praying for him, he would
be receiving some protection to a certain extent; and the people
praying for him would also be receiving some chastisement from
Satan. That's how I see it. It's like trying to live with a
drug addict, paying all his bills, giving him a place to live,
food to eat and all the rest. Meanwhile his activities are
making your life hell.
--- Quote ---
> Maybe the real question becomes: How does removing someone
from the Church work toward their salvation? Perhaps it is
simply meant as a shunning, to encourage the man to repentance.
--- End Quote ---
I think it was a real cutting off. If people persist in evil,
it is wrong to protect them from the consequences of their
mistakes. The drug addict has little motive to change as long
as others are footing the bill and suffering on his account.
There is also the matter of violating what is sacred. I think
it's a sin to partake of Eucharist unworthily. If a Bishop or
priest knowingly goes along with someone who wants to do this,
he is encouraging sin. The person is also endangering himself,
risking perdition; and a priest should withhold the Eucharist
lest he helps such a person on the road to perdition by allowing
him to violate what is sacred. We may not be able to force
someone to repent; but there are things we can do to stop him
from sinning in other ways or to make it harder for him to sin.
That's how I see it; and I think that is the reason the Church
excommunicates some people. It is not a punishment; but the
person may feel as if it is. It is a removal though of the
Church's protection and benefits.
#Post#: 3303--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 21, 2015, 2:34 pm
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> Of all the doctrines people disagree on, perhaps this one
troubles me the most. It troubles me when people don't believe
in prayers for the dead since that means they don't pray. How
many souls might have been helped by such prayers? This is
a great tragedy to me.
>
--- End Quote ---
When a young relative committed suicide, I remember immediately
praying for him. I never even questioned if it were right or
wrong. How could it be wrong? I was afraid he might be 'lost'
somewhere, and I wanted Jesus to find him, or to send someone to
him.
#Post#: 3304--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 21, 2015, 7:52 pm
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I believe some souls can wander off after death and get lost.
Praying for them? I think God sends angels to talk to them, so
they remember who they are, what happened and what their options
are. Sometimes Jesus goes himself, I think. Suicides and
people who die violent deaths are apt to get lost.
I thought about putting this in the other thread about children;
but I'll tell the story here. Some years ago, a child came onto
the road and got killed. There are hedges there. The driver
couldn't have seen anything. The kid popped out and got killed
before the driver could stop. At that point, I didn't pray;
but a few days later while crossing a nearby bridge on the road
that intersected with the first one, I suddenly felt
"something." I couldn't figure it out at first. I've been
in "haunted" places, and this wasn't like those; and I couldn't
"read" anything about what kind of presence it was. I finally
put two and two together and figured the child's soul had left
the body not immediately after the car hit him but after he was
put into an ambulance to be taken to the hospital. The soul
left the body and got lost. That was my theory anyway; and I
didn't sense any angels coming, so I can't say much; but I never
felt that presence again. I assume the angels came and got him
--- perhaps woke him up -- maybe Jesus did. I don't know.
The Jews also say souls can wander about. Sometimes they
wonder about their bodies and go visit them. But the Jews say
souls should adapt to the afterlife in a year; and they pray
only for the first year. If the soul hasn't adapted by then,
it probably doesn't want to and you're wasting your time -- move
on -- get on with your life and put your effort into those still
living.
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