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#Post#: 3259--------------------------------------------------
Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 18, 2015, 10:38 pm
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Was Paul being unforgiving towards Alexander the coppersmith?
2 Timothy 4:14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the
Lord reward him according to his works:
15 Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our
words.
I don't think Paul was unforgiving. I feel confident that had
Alexander repented of his evil and then tried to repair the
horrible damage he had done, Paul would have forgiven him; but
how could he forgive him if he hadn't repented?
#Post#: 3263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: bradley
Date: November 19, 2015, 12:21 am
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I agree. People need to desire repentance before they can be
forgiven. The pride to refuse to repent of evil actions
(persecuting paul and other christians for cutting back on the
sale of man fashioned Gods) only shows us still to be wallowing
in our rebellion.
#Post#: 3282--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 19, 2015, 7:26 pm
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Probably the same Alexander mentioned in 1Timothy 1:20-- a
heretic, excommunicated for blasphemy.
--- Quote ---
> By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck
of their faith,
> among them Hymenae'us and Alexander, whom I have delivered to
Satan that they may learn not to blaspheme.
>
> 1 Tim.1:19-20
>
>
--- End Quote ---
#Post#: 3284--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 19, 2015, 8:37 pm
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I think you're probably right, Nancy; and that verse also
informs us on doctrine, telling us something about the role
Satan plays. If people want to play with the Devil, why try
endlessly to talk them out of it? Let them play with Satan
and hope eventually they get tired of it. If and when they get
tired of it, they've learned from experience that some things
aren't worth doing. They are ready to repent and almost certain
not to repeat that offense. It's sad to observe but I think
true: Some people don't learn by studying the mistakes of
others; they have to learn the hard way.
Time is precious. Why waste it on people like Alexander? Paul
had better things to do with his time, talking to people where
his words mattered and where what he said might make a
difference. So why not deliver him to Satan and get on with
things where he could make a difference?
And of course, there's also doctrine in the phrase "have made
shipwreck of their faith." I wonder how the "once saved,
always saved" theologians explain this verse? Some things Paul
writes confuse me, I'll admit that; but this verse seems clear
enough.
I also find it interesting that Alexander was opposing
legitimate authority and then found something to quarrel about.
Quite often rebellion is followed by innovations in doctrines
-- heresies.
16 At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook
me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge.
17 Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me;
that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the
Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the
lion.
18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will
preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever
and ever. Amen.
It may also be worth noting Paul was very forgiving towards the
people Alexander had misled.
#Post#: 3286--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 20, 2015, 3:16 am
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You see the phrase "delivered to Satan", here, as well:
--- Quote ---
> 1 Cor. 5:1-5
>
> 1 It is actually reported that there is immorality among you,
and of a kind that is not found even among pagans; for a man is
living with his father's wife.
> 2And you are arrogant! Ought you not rather to mourn? Let him
who has done this be removed from among you.
> 3 For though absent in body I am present in spirit, and as if
present, I have already pronounced judgment
> 4in the name of the Lord Jesus on the man who has done such a
thing. When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with
the power of our Lord Jesus,
> 5you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of
the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord
Jesus.
--- End Quote ---
I found verse 5 interesting, but confusing.
My Catholic bible commentary makes this note:
--- Quote ---
> The anticipated destruction of the sinner's body is an extreme
form of remedial punishment that Paul expects will benefit his
spirit (1 Tim 1:20).
>
> The hidden assumption is that earthly and physical life is a
blessing from God cut short by the curse of biological death
(Gen 3:19). Similar chastisements befell other Corinthians who
failed to discern Christ's presence in the Eucharist (1 Cor
11:29-32).
>
> • The man is separated from the community of the faithful and
from the sacraments of the Church, by which things a man is
protected from the assaults of Satan (St. Thomas Aquinas,
Commentary on 1 Corinthians 5, 1).
--- End Quote ---
It sounds as though, by destruction of the flesh, this sinner
will somehow be saved by judgement (chastened), rather than
condemned.
I'm confused, though: Does "destruction of the flesh" refer to
physical death (after which the man is somehow chastened and
saved--purgatory?), or does "destruction of the flesh" refer to
spiritual death (of the flesh), which leads to repentance?
Could it be either / both?
Doesn't "the day of the Lord Jesus" refer to Judgement Day?
Judgement Day is after the "destruction of the flesh", meaning
physical death, right? Which leads me back to pondering verse
5, underlined above, again.
??? ??? ???
#Post#: 3287--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 20, 2015, 3:35 am
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For reference, here is 1 Cor. 11:29-32:
--- Quote ---
> 29For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body
eats and drinks judgment upon himself.
> 30That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have
died.
> 31But if we judged ourselves truly, we should not be judged.
> 32But when we are judged by the Lord, we are chastened so that
we may not be condemned along with the world.
--- End Quote ---
(Verse32) Seems to speak of what the Church refers to as
Purgatory-- a time after death in which those in Christ are
chastened for remaining, unrepented sin-- which enables
salvation.
Is that how you read it, Kerry?
#Post#: 3289--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 20, 2015, 4:22 am
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To "chasten" is to discipline, correct; purify.
#Post#: 3293--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: November 20, 2015, 8:04 am
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> For reference, here is 1 Cor. 11:29-32:
>
>
>
> (Verse32) Seems to speak of what the Church refers to as
Purgatory-- a time after death in which those in Christ are
chastened for remaining, unrepented sin-- which enables
salvation.
>
> Is that how you read it, Kerry?
>
--- End Quote ---
I had never looked at that verse that way; but then I don't read
Paul's writings that much. But I'd say it could refer to events
both before and after death and correcting some things -- but
primarily after death, I'd say since judgment follows death.
Let's not forget that Paul studied with Gamaliel and much of
what Paul writes is standard Jewish theology.
What happens the soul after death? It doesn't face the final
judgment, that's for sure. Souls face their final judgment
after the first and second resurrections. It does face a
judgment however, a preliminary judgment.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but
after this the judgment:
Not "once to live" as some want to read it as an argument
against reincarnation. Once to die and then the judgment.
Standard "Hebrew" thought here -- the soul is given a judgment
immediately after the body dies. Some certainly do visit
Purgatory or Gehinnom. I have no idea why anyone denies this
since Jews teach it, and all the Apostolic Churches do. I can
add I have seen a few souls in Purgatory. And the Scriptures
teach it. I cannot see why anyone resists the idea that God can
act to help people after they die. The idea that the flames
are painful may or may not be true from what I have seen. If
the soul resists the Flames of Love -- and that is what the
flames are -- it does experience them as painful; but if the
soul accepts that impurities are being burned away and wants it
to be so, the Flames of Love are experienced as gentle and
warm.
Now that I've gone this far, let me say we can also experience
the Flames of Purgation before we die. It's all the Sacred
Flames of Love.
1 Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent charity among
yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Fervent? Yes, fervent -- burning! Why wait until after death
if you can do it now?
#Post#: 3295--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Deborah
Date: November 20, 2015, 11:29 am
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> For reference, here is 1 Cor. 11:29-32:
>
>
>
> (Verse32) Seems to speak of what the Church refers to as
Purgatory-- a time after death in which those in Christ are
chastened for remaining, unrepented sin-- which enables
salvation.
>
> Is that how you read it, Kerry?
>
--- End Quote ---
It's not how I read it. The 'judgement' (discipline) that the
Corinthians were undergoing was in their earthly life.
#Post#: 3298--------------------------------------------------
Re: Was Paul Unforgiving?
DIR By: Piper
Date: November 20, 2015, 1:09 pm
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Definitely there is discipline, chastening in our earthly life.
I was considering all the verses in my above posts together.
Especially: "You are to deliver this man to Satan for the
destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the
day of the Lord Jesus."
What flesh? Physical, spiritual, or both?
" . . . the day of the Lord Jesus" is after this lifetime-- led
me to wonder if it could be the destruction of either spiritual
flesh in this lifetime or physical flesh (death), with
chastening afterward.
" . . . deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the
flesh" refers also to removing the man from the protection of
the church, where, left to Satan, his chatisement begins. But I
thought it was God who chastises, not Satan. Very confusing
directive. Why would the church "deliver" anyone to Satan? It
would seem the man had delivered himself.
Maybe the real question becomes: How does removing someone from
the Church work toward their salvation? Perhaps it is simply
meant as a shunning, to encourage the man to repentance.
This is why studying the bible on my own is difficult. I very
often find it hard to understand, even though I've been a
prolific reader my entire life. This is why I find the guidance
of the Church a great comfort.
Thanks, though, for the replies, which I'll read again and
consider. :)
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