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#Post#: 3473--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: bradley Date: December 17, 2015, 9:41 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=384.msg3469#msg3469
date=1450402586]
Such things occur on what some call the "astral plane" -- and
what the Bible sometimes calls "the sea" -- or "lower waters."
[/quote]
That sounds sad. If I spend so much time in the lower waters,
as you say, then it implies that I must be a creature of the
lower waters. But I do not choose to be there other than what
God wishes for me, it was God who directed me into the military
to harden me up when I was an extreme pacifist. It was God who
molded me into a spiritual warrior, gifting
me in areas that would help me be a spiritual warrior. I seem
to have been in training since before I became a christian or
perhaps it was the life I led prior that God saw as beneficial
to being a good spiritual warrior. It was shortly after I
first battled a couple of evil spirits in my early 30's, simply
using the power of the name of Jesus and my desire to stop them
from harming my wife and stepson (as they had been), that I
"knowingly" started on this path, of which I didnt realize I was
already upon that path by the Lord.
[quote]
"Things" can show up there first -- and then they seek to take
on "form" in the physical world. This is one of the principals
of "magic" in fact. The same principal can be used in
righteous prayer too. The spirit first forms entities on the
astral plane and these interact with the physical world --
putting pressure on events in the physical world so that what is
true "in the sea" becomes true in the physical world. This can
be for good or evil.
We have many examples of "things" coming out of the sea in the
Bible. Some are predicted by prophecies as necessary
developments in man's progressing history; but other things
which come "out of the sea" are not so pleasant.
Thus we see the "four beasts" of Daniel coming out of the sea --
first true on the astral plane and then taking shape in human
history. [/quote]
Strangely, that is one of the first leadings I had before I
began on christian forums. I was lead by God to research that
scripture about the four beasts and who they were, and that
research did not agree with commonly held views on it.
[quote]
Even when chopped into small pieces, some entities have a way of
reassembling themselves over time. (Thus we have the beast of
the water with the wound that heals itself.) It's still a good
plan to keep chopping them into bits since while they're in tiny
bits, mankind doesn't have to deal with such negative entities.
But negative emotions of people help put them back together
again. [/quote]
I felt this very thing in my spirit, that they can reform in
some way, and I was even told how to keep them from reforming in
a bad way, and I began following that procedure in most but not
all cases. I think I was meant to let some of them go for my
own rest, that they can witness their fear of me to their
fellows and keep some attacks from happening to keep me from
becoming weary.
[quote]
Eventually positive lifeforms "eat" these tiny bits and change
them from evil to good. The soul force in general can be
called Leviathan. It was corrupted long ago. It was broken
into pieces; and the "new" lifeforms made in Genesis "ate" it.
This battle with Leviathan as the major fallen entity out of
which other negative entities take form continues. In the time
of Moses, an ordeal with Leviathan happened -- and "bits" of
Leviathan were given to Israel to eat.
Psalm 74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and
gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
The "energy" contained in this soulforce is can be positive or
negative -- but until the negative manifestations are broken up
and changed, immortality of human souls is not going to
happen. In the Messianic Age, all the negative energy
contained in Leviathan will be chopped into bits and
God-designed lifeforms will eat it all and transform it into the
positive soul-energy needed to make souls immortal.
Having sympathy for such fallen monstrous manifestations of life
is misguided. Such manifestations of life are not happy and
also make everyone else unhappy. [/quote]
I have also early on in my warrior training felt sorry for some
of these manifestations. But I also was Holy Spirit led to
believe that my retaliations to these attacks actually bring the
best peace to them, and I have come to accept that.
[quote]
I would say "as a general rule," saints are protected from the
negative lifeforms on the astral plane -- unless a pa
rticular saint is given the ability to deal with them by
chopping them into bits. The person with this ability knows
what to do, how to do it, and without the need for instruction
from the Bible. Indeed some things may be better off not
described in Scripture lest unholy men study them and use them
for evil. It might also tempt some saints to try to find such
monsters so they can cut them up -- when those saints could fall
into error doing it. There must be a certain attitude when
dealing with such monstrous things on the astral plane. If the
attitude is wrong, you risk becoming like them. [/quote]
The first year or two after my casting out of the evil spirits
that bothered my wife and stepson, I wanted to go after more
evil spirits more so and the Holy Spirit cautioned me against
it, saying it would not be good for me. So I relented despite
my desire to do more.
[quote]
More positive manifestations are projected in the "upper
waters" where the monsters from the sea below cannot reach.
When these manifestations wish to materialize, it's said they
appear "in clouds." The process is different too. Physical
objects can be made to appear seemingly "out of nothing." So
far as I know, black magicians are unable to make objects
appear that way -- they are restricted to trying to form things
"in the sea" and then summoning up if they can.
I have heard "prophets" on the radio predicting this and that.
Some were horrible things -- and I was convinced the "prophets"
who were saying them were actually practicing black magic --
without knowing it. They were seeing monstrous things on the
astral plane and thought God was behind them. They then made
dire prophecies. I pray about such things, and I pray that the
negative things they are seeing get dissolved or cut up. Most
of the time when I've prayed that way, their prophecies fail.
I'm not doing it myself with a sword, often can't even see what
is going on -- but I think angels are doing to do it.
I have seen some things though. There are "things" that enjoy
chasing people on the astral plane. They enjoy causing fear.
If you are standing in the Light of God, the truth is they
can't touch you. I stopped once and turned and reached out my
hand -- and the entity (whatever it was) ran away from me. I
knew, just knew, it would have "gone out of existence" if I had
touched it, and it knew it too. Finger or sword? Perhaps
it's the same thing in a way? What I am confident is true is
if you have a sword that can do it, it probably has something to
do with the Divine Light -- which dark entities cannot deal
with.
The "sea" in which things happen is fascinating.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down,
and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come
forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be
wailing and gnashing of teeth.
What is good in the sea is gathered and preserved -- is saved.
What is not good now gets thrown back into the sea as a rule for
recycling; but "in the end of the world," what has not been
redeemed by recycling will be burned by fire. This recycling
is important as we see in the previous passage:
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man,
seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and
sold all that he had, and bought it.
Pearls are formed out of mud and muck that is dissolved in the
sea -- by unclean creatures who can eat yucky stuff but still
produce something of great value out of that muck. But that
muck can't be turned into pearls if it's already in some "solid"
form. It has to be dissolved into tiny bits so the oyster can
absorb it and convert it. Chopping up negative things or
dissolving them for recycling is part of life that leads to
better things in the future.
[/quote]
All interesting things. I dont mind fighting evil spirits, it
happens daily nearly, its like I have a reward poster out on me,
and bounty hunters constantly coming for me, but letting some go
to witness what happens has lessened the attacks some. I am
hoping there are more such warriors being trained, for the great
sea is broiling over, spewing out bad manifestations galore and
I know in my spirit that its only beginning.
#Post#: 3476--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 18, 2015, 7:17 am
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[quote author=bradley link=topic=384.msg3473#msg3473
date=1450410094]
That sounds sad. If I spend so much time in the lower waters,
as you say, then it implies that I must be a creature of the
lower waters. [/quote]We all are in a way; but some people are
protected against the snares of the lower waters temporarily so
they can get their houses in order. Eventually though, I think
everyone has to deal with the lower waters. I'd say Jonah did
-- and his reluctance to do so made things worse for him. The
"big fish" ate him.
[quote] But I do not choose to be there other than what God
wishes for me, it was God who directed me into the military to
harden me up when I was an extreme pacifist. It was God who
molded me into a spiritual warrior, gifting me in areas that
would help me be a spiritual warrior. I seem to have been in
training since before I became a christian or perhaps it was the
life I led prior that God saw as beneficial to being a good
spiritual warrior. It was shortly after I first battled a
couple of evil spirits in my early 30's, simply using the power
of the name of Jesus and my desire to stop them from harming my
wife and stepson (as they had been), that I "knowingly" started
on this path, of which I didnt realize I was already upon that
path by the Lord.
Strangely, that is one of the first leadings I had before I
began on christian forums. I was lead by God to research that
scripture about the four beasts and who they were, and that
research did not agree with commonly held views on
it.[/quote]Most views do not account for the reason they "come
out of the sea." I think if we get the right understanding
of what the "sea" means there, it helps explain other passages.
Like the "dead" who are "in the sea" in Revelation. I
read it spiritually too when Jesus said it would be better for
some people who offend against innocent children if they had
millstones tied to them and they were cast into the sea -- yes,
it would be better for the children but it would also be better
for those people if they didn't have physical bodies themselves
but got thrown into the "lower waters".
[quote]I felt this very thing in my spirit, that they can reform
in some way, and I was even told how to keep them from reforming
in a bad way, and I began following that procedure in most but
not all cases. [/quote]I can see not taking the same steps in
every case. Some things need to be slowed down but still
allowed to play out. Could the "four beasts" in Daniel have
been prevented from forming and coming up out of the sea? I
think so; but if they had, mankind would not learn some lessons
they need to learn.
[quote]I think I was meant to let some of them go for my own
rest, that they can witness their fear of me to their fellows
and keep some attacks from happening to keep me from becoming
weary.
I have also early on in my warrior training felt sorry for some
of these manifestations. [/quote]I do believe this is one
reason many saints are prevented from seeing such things and
dealing with them. They would allow themselves to be guided by
"compassion" -- and that kind of compassion can cause lots of
problems down the road.
The key, I think, is to realize if we enjoy such things, we can
become like them. That is a danger in physical warfare too.
It is safe to kill only if you know it's necessary and useful
but not something you enjoy.
Thus it is possible to err by being too compassionate or by
being too harsh.
[quote]But I also was Holy Spirit led to believe that my
retaliations to these attacks actually bring the best peace to
them, and I have come to accept that.
The first year or two after my casting out of the evil spirits
that bothered my wife and stepson, I wanted to go after more
evil spirits more so and the Holy Spirit cautioned me against
it, saying it would not be good for me. So I relented despite
my desire to do more.[/quote]I can believe this too. In fact,
I would say pursuing it too much can lead to a certain type of
spiritual insanity. There are certain rules -- and if evil
things are not breaking the rules, they should be let alone.
There is a "type" of spiritual warrior that seems to enjoy going
"demon hunting" and then believes the best thing to do is to
send them to the pit. This is not right, not at all. Jesus
did not send some demons to the pit -- even when they feared he
would. He allowed the pigs to take care of them; and what I
find amusing in that story is that the demons wanted to go into
the pigs!
A lot seems to depend on having the right instincts at the time.
Trying to make up rules that would hold true all the time
doesn't seem possible to me. Maybe there are such rules -- but
it would be like the rules that govern how bicycles work.
There's gravity and so on; but you still have to develop the
skill of riding a bicycle by instinct.
[quote]All interesting things. I dont mind fighting evil
spirits, it happens daily nearly, its like I have a reward
poster out on me, and bounty hunters constantly coming for me,
but letting some go to witness what happens has lessened the
attacks some. I am hoping there are more such warriors being
trained, for the great sea is broiling over, spewing out bad
manifestations galore and I know in my spirit that its only
beginning.[/quote]
I have the feeling that a lot of spiritual warfare goes on when
people pray -- and without the people praying seeing or knowing
what is going on.
Praying about abortion is one thing that people should do. If
someone cuts up a baby in the womb, that's cutting up the soul
too. Draining the blood from a fetus also injures the soul --
for the life is in the blood -- the soul of the baby is like
spread out instead of being in a coherent form. I have seen
terrible things in the sea; and the spiritual force behind most
abortions is wanting to trap those souls on the astral plane.
People may find it hard to believe; but a baby in the womb can
feel anger and often does when being aborted. That anger also
helps trap the soul on the astral plane. Any negative emotion
tends to trap souls on the astral plane. If you can trick a
soul into forgetting about God, you can trap it -- and the soul
gets dull and unknowing about God. "in the grave there is no
remembrance" . . . of God. The good news is that prayer can
rescue some of these souls -- and in this case, you do want the
"chopped up bits" to reform and take on their prior shape.
My belief about the saints who were resurrected following the
Crucifixion is that many of them had been killed -- some
tortured, etc. Jesus was able to call them forth. And
certainly the saints in Revelation "under the throne" were
lacking something.
Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw
under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word
of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord,
holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them
that dwell on the earth?
The loss of blood at the point of death -- means the life is
flowing into the physical earth. Soul -- the life force --is
getting mixed up and confused. It should be in a living
physical body but finds itself in the dirt. Yes, the blood can
cry out from the earth -- as Abel's did.
It is also possible for such "lost" parts of the life force to
be brought out of the earth. I was driving along one day and in
a wonderful mood, praying in fact -- when all of a sudden I
started seeing dark brown shadowy forms coming up out of the
earth. This was a good thing. I knew it was good at once. I
don't know "who" had lost parts and bits of their life-force
that way but someone had. And they were being resurrected
somehow and before "resurrection day." Still for the most
part, there are "bits" of the human soul that seem resigned to
reside "in the earth" until that final resurrection day. It
is not as simple as some may think though.
Take the case of Samuel when the witch of Endor summoned him.
I can't tell you "what" it was she saw; but my guess is it was
something like the brown shadowy things I saw. The Jews say of
it that it was a part of Samuel, a part that should have been
allowed to rest until resurrection day. Was it Samuel then?
Yes, and no. The Bible says it was; but you can see it's
impossible to believe Samuel had died on the spot the witch saw
him coming up from. Moreover her description says "gods"
rising. "Gods" can mean almost anything in that instance.
Such things could be summoned by black magic and perhaps
manipulated and made into idols to impress the masses of people.
So if Samuel hadn't died on that spot, how could he come up out
of it? The "living" seem to have something to do with that.
The "bits" and "pieces" appear to be interchangeable to some
extent. I heard an Orthodox priest talking about why
cremation was a bad idea -- and he said it would make the
resurrection difficult. I had to smile about that. What about
saints who were burned for their faith by the Emperor Nero? What
about those who were eaten by animals? Surely God knows how
to resurrect them no matter how scattered their bits and pieces
may be; so what is the big deal about cremation?
The way I see it is that if Heaven has a "clear picture" of the
soul it wishes to resurrect, it can re-form that soul out of
any of the bits and pieces it finds in the sea. It doesn't need
the original bits and pieces. No, and the resurrection of the
body also doesn't depend on having the original physical atoms
of the dead physical body.
#Post#: 3478--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 19, 2015, 7:16 am
---------------------------------------------------------
Psalm 137 was written much later than David, after the exile.
The following passage has two sections I will discuss.
Psalm 137:7 Remember, O Lord, the children of Edom in the day of
Jerusalem; who said, Rase it, rase it, even to the foundation
thereof.
8 O daughter of Babylon, who art to be destroyed; happy shall he
be, that rewardeth thee as thou hast served us.
9 Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones
against the stones.
Let me take the "daughter of Babylon" part first with its
difficult passage about dashing babies against stones. It was
been ordained, from the very beginning, that Israel would endure
three exiles: One in Egypt, one in Babylon, and finally the
dispersion. It was meant to be that Babylon invade and subdue
Jerusalem since the Jews had fallen into great sin -- and had
grown enamored of themselves instead of acting as intercessors
for the nations. However the Babylonians went to excess, went
too far. For this, they too would be punished. I can only
think that the children born to the degraded Babylonians were
the worst of souls who would have been more degraded than their
parents.
However do note that in few instances does God use righteous men
to punish the wicked. The preferred method when possible is to
allow the wicked to punish the other wicked. There is a saying
among the Jews that if you perceive it is necessary that someone
be killed, pray that you not be the one who must do it. Not
that any sin would result from it; but we ought not to enjoy
such things. So I'm not quite sure who was "happy" when
Babylon fell, and who dashed their little ones against the
stones; but I believe it was a godless people. Still what they
did was a godly deed, and they could be rewarded for that. That
is the reason I believe they would be happy.
-------------------
The part about the Edomites is not discussed here in detail; and
about the only real sources we have for this part of history
come from the Bible. It is said that the Edomites sided with
the Babylonians when Jerusalem was being attacked. There had
been a long complicated history (which we have not discussed
here) of animosity between Israel and the Edomites; and now the
Edomites, according to the Psalm, were in favor of leveling
Jerusalem to the ground.
Jeremiah alludes to it in passing:
Lamentations 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that
dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto
thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.
22 The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter
of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will
visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy
sins.
Some Jews were living in Edom though:
Jeremiah 40:11 Likewise when all the Jews that were in Moab, and
among the Ammonites, and in Edom, and that were in all the
countries, heard that the king of Babylon had left a remnant of
Judah, and that he had set over them Gedaliah the son of Ahikam
the son of Shaphan;
12 Even all the Jews returned out of all places whither they
were driven, and came to the land of Judah, to Gedaliah, unto
Mizpah, and gathered wine and summer fruits very much.
Ezekiel wrote of the treachery of the Edomites:
Ezekiel 25:8 Thus saith the LORD God; Because that Moab and Seir
do say, Behold, the house of Judah is like unto all the heathen;
9 Therefore, behold, I will open the side of Moab from the
cities, from his cities which are on his frontiers, the glory of
the country, Bethjeshimoth, Baalmeon, and Kiriathaim,
10 Unto the men of the east with the Ammonites, and will give
them in possession, that the Ammonites may not be remembered
among the nations.
11 And I will execute judgments upon Moab; and they shall know
that I am the LORD.
12 Thus saith the Lord God; Because that Edom hath dealt against
the house of Judah by taking vengeance, and hath greatly
offended, and revenged himself upon them;
13 Therefore thus saith the LORD God; I will also stretch out
mine hand upon Edom, and will cut off man and beast from it; and
I will make it desolate from Teman; and they of Dedan shall fall
by the sword.
14 And I will lay my vengeance upon Edom by the hand of my
people Israel: and they shall do in Edom according to mine anger
and according to my fury; and they shall know my vengeance,
saith the LORD God.
And at greater length:
35:1 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2 Son of man, set thy face against mount Seir, and prophesy
against it,
3 And say unto it, Thus saith the LORD God; Behold, O mount
Seir, I am against thee, and I will stretch out mine hand
against thee, and I will make thee most desolate.
4 I will lay thy cities waste, and thou shalt be desolate, and
thou shalt know that I am the Lord.
5 Because thou hast had a perpetual hatred, and hast shed the
blood of the children of Israel by the force of the sword in the
time of their calamity, in the time that their iniquity had an
end:
6 Therefore, as I live, saith the LORD God, I will prepare thee
unto blood, and blood shall pursue thee: sith thou hast not
hated blood, even blood shall pursue thee.
7 Thus will I make mount Seir most desolate, and cut off from it
him that passeth out and him that returneth.
8 And I will fill his mountains with his slain men: in thy
hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they
fall that are slain with the sword.
9 I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall
not return: and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
10 Because thou hast said, These two nations and these two
countries shall be mine, and we will possess it; whereas the
Lord was there:
11 Therefore, as I live, saith the Lord God, I will even do
according to thine anger, and according to thine envy which thou
hast used out of thy hatred against them; and I will make myself
known among them, when I have judged thee.
12 And thou shalt know that I am the LORD, and that I have heard
all thy blasphemies which thou hast spoken against the mountains
of Israel, saying, They are laid desolate, they are given us to
consume.
13 Thus with your mouth ye have boasted against me, and have
multiplied your words against me: I have heard them.
14 Thus saith the LORD God; When the whole earth rejoiceth, I
will make thee desolate.
15 As thou didst rejoice at the inheritance of the house of
Israel, because it was desolate, so will I do unto thee: thou
shalt be desolate, O mount Seir, and all Idumea, even all of it:
and they shall know that I am the LORD.
Finally we have Obadiah weighing in with some historical details
-- and it is said that Obadiah himself was an Edomite, a pious
one:
Obadiah 1:1 The vision of Obadiah. Thus saith the LORD God
concerning Edom; We have heard a rumour from the Lord, and an
ambassador is sent among the heathen, Arise ye, and let us rise
up against her in battle.
2 Behold, I have made thee small among the heathen: thou art
greatly despised.
3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that
dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high;
that saith in his heart, Who shall bring me down to the ground?
4 Though thou exalt thyself as the eagle, and though thou set
thy nest among the stars, thence will I bring thee down, saith
the LORD.
5 If thieves came to thee, if robbers by night, (how art thou
cut off!) would they not have stolen till they had enough? if
the grapegatherers came to thee, would they not leave some
grapes?
6 How are the things of Esau searched out! how are his hidden
things sought up!
7 All the men of thy confederacy have brought thee even to the
border: the men that were at peace with thee have deceived thee,
and prevailed against thee; they that eat thy bread have laid a
wound under thee: there is none understanding in him.
8 Shall I not in that day, saith the LORD, even destroy the wise
men out of Edom, and understanding out of the mount of Esau?
9 And thy mighty men, O Teman, shall be dismayed, to the end
that every one of the mount of Esau may be cut off by slaughter.
10 For thy violence against thy brother Jacob shame shall cover
thee, and thou shalt be cut off for ever.
11 In the day that thou stoodest on the other side, in the day
that the strangers carried away captive his forces, and
foreigners entered into his gates, and cast lots upon Jerusalem,
even thou wast as one of them.
12 But thou shouldest not have looked on the day of thy brother
in the day that he became a stranger; neither shouldest thou
have rejoiced over the children of Judah in the day of their
destruction; neither shouldest thou have spoken proudly in the
day of distress.
13 Thou shouldest not have entered into the gate of my people in
the day of their calamity; yea, thou shouldest not have looked
on their affliction in the day of their calamity, nor have laid
hands on their substance in the day of their calamity;
14 Neither shouldest thou have stood in the crossway, to cut off
those of his that did escape; neither shouldest thou have
delivered up those of his that did remain in the day of
distress.
15 For the day of the Lord is near upon all the heathen: as thou
hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return
upon thine own head.
16 For as ye have drunk upon my holy mountain, so shall all the
heathen drink continually, yea, they shall drink, and they shall
swallow down, and they shall be as though they had not been.
17 But upon mount Zion shall be deliverance, and there shall be
holiness; and the house of Jacob shall possess their
possessions.
18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the house of
Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and they
shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not be
any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken it.
19 And they of the south shall possess the mount of Esau; and
they of the plain the Philistines: and they shall possess the
fields of Ephraim, and the fields of Samaria: and Benjamin shall
possess Gilead.
20 And the captivity of this host of the children of Israel
shall possess that of the Canaanites, even unto Zarephath; and
the captivity of Jerusalem, which is in Sepharad, shall possess
the cities of the south.
21 And saviours shall come up on mount Zion to judge the mount
of Esau; and the kingdom shall be the LORD's.
So we see what role the Edomites played when Babylon invaded the
kingdom of Judah.
#Post#: 3479--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 19, 2015, 7:39 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I will have to return to discuss Esther later; but for now, let
me go out of order to discuss Herod.
Was Herod the Great really a Jew? Allegedly he was since his
family had converted to Judaism, but I'd say his Edomite
background showed. From Wikipedia
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod_the_Great:
It is generally accepted that Herod was born around 74 BCE in
Idumea, south of Judea. However, some authors think that he was
born in about 72/71 BC. He was the second son of Antipater the
Idumaean, a high-ranked official under ethnarch Hyrcanus II, and
Cypros, a Nabatean. Herod's father was by descent an Edomite
whose ancestors had converted to Judaism. Herod was raised as a
Jew.
Was it a sincere conversion? Again from Wikipedia:
As Herod's family were converts to Judaism, his religious
commitment was questioned by some elements of Jewish society.
When John Hyrcanus conquered the region of Idumaea (the Edom of
the Hebrew Bible) in 140–130 BCE, he required all Idumaeans to
obey Jewish law or to leave; most Idumaeans thus converted to
Judaism, which meant that they had to be circumcised, and many
had intermarried with the Jews and adopted their customs. While
Herod publicly identified himself as a Jew and was considered as
such by some, this religious identification was undermined by
the decadent lifestyle of the Herodians, which would have earned
them the antipathy of observant Jews.
I realize many if not most people will disagree with me on this;
but I read much of the beginning of Matthew spiritually and not
as history. Thus when I read about the massacre of the
innocents by Herod, I see a spiritual battle going on --
between this Edomite who was ruling over the Jews on behalf of
the Romans . . . and Jesus who was born with the title "King of
the Jews." What does seem certain to me is that the "star of
Bethlehem" was not as star visible to mortal men with their
physical sight. The magi could see it. Herod could not. Who
were the magi? I believe they were descendants of Abraham
through the sons which moved to the east.
Genesis 25:6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham
had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son,
while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.
Then there is also the possibility that Paul was related somehow
to the Herodians. That would explain his Roman citizenship for
one thing; and it would also explain why he had a relative named
Herodion.
Romans 16:11 Salute Herodion my kinsman. Greet them that be of
the household of Narcissus, which are in the Lord.
Paul started off with the name Saul of course, both being of the
tribe of Benjamin; but I wonder if somehow the family got mixed
in with the Herodian Edomite family? Could this explain why
he was given the role of Apostle to the Gentiles winding up in
Rome the center of power then of the Edomites?
#Post#: 3481--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 21, 2015, 7:15 am
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The first thing to note is that Esther's uncle Mordecai was of
the tribe of Benjamin. Yes, he's called a Jew but the practice
was to call people of other tribes Jews too just as "Jews" of
the tribe of Levi today are still called "Jews."
Esther 2:5 Now in Shushan the palace there was a certain Jew,
whose name was Mordecai, the son of Jair, the son of Shimei, the
son of Kish, a Benjamite;
The Talmud says he was a descendant of King Saul through
Jonathan and Mephibosheth. It is also said he was a member of
the Sanhedrin -- and educated in many languages. Thus it was he
could listen to conversations and understand them while most
Jews could not. I suppose that could be the reason the two
chamberlains thought it safe to discuss their plot against the
king within hearing range of Mordecai:
21 In those days, while Mordecai sat in the king's gate, two of
the king's chamberlains, Bigthan and Teresh, of those which kept
the door, were wroth, and sought to lay hands on the king
Ahasuerus.
22 And the thing was known to Mordecai, who told it unto Esther
the queen; and Esther certified the king thereof in Mordecai's
name.
23 And when inquisition was made of the matter, it was found
out; therefore they were both hanged on a tree: and it was
written in the book of the chronicles before the king.
So Esther also had royal blood in her veins. Now we go on to
Haman.
3:1 After these things did king Ahasuerus promote Haman the son
of Hammedatha the Agagite, and advanced him, and set his seat
above all the princes that were with him.
In short, Haman was an Amalekite, a descendant of King Agag.
2 And all the king's servants, that were in the king's gate,
bowed, and reverenced Haman: for the king had so commanded
concerning him. But Mordecai bowed not, nor did him reverence.
3 Then the king's servants, which were in the king's gate, said
unto Mordecai, Why transgressest thou the king's commandment?
4 Now it came to pass, when they spake daily unto him, and he
hearkened not unto them, that they told Haman, to see whether
Mordecai's matters would stand: for he had told them that he was
a Jew.
5 And when Haman saw that Mordecai bowed not, nor did him
reverence, then was Haman full of wrath.
Jacob erred and bowed to Esau -- with Benjamin not yet born --
meaning Benjamin had bowed to Esau; but Mordecai does not bow to
Haman. Benjamin is not bowing to Esau now! Mordecai is thus
rectifying the error Jacob made; and Haman is furious:
6 And he thought scorn to lay hands on Mordecai alone; for they
had shewed him the people of Mordecai: wherefore Haman sought to
destroy all the Jews that were throughout the whole kingdom of
Ahasuerus, even the people of Mordecai.
Of course this backfires on Haman, and it's Mordecai who gets
the upperhand. Haman built gallows to hang Mordecai on and
wound up hung on them himself.
7:9 And Harbonah, one of the chamberlains, said before the king,
Behold also, the gallows fifty cubits high, which Haman had made
for Mordecai, who spoken good for the king, standeth in the
house of Haman. Then the king said, Hang him thereon.
10 So they hanged Haman on the gallows that he had prepared for
Mordecai. Then was the king's wrath pacified.
Then we read this which mentions the killing of children:
8:11 Wherein the king granted the Jews which were in every city
to gather themselves together, and to stand for their life, to
destroy, to slay and to cause to perish, all the power of the
people and province that would assault them, both little ones
and women, and to take the spoil of them for a prey,
Then we read that many people converted and became Jews.
17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the
king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and
gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the
land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.
Now it may be worth noting that the name Mordecai is a variation
of the Babylonian name Marduk. Some may debate that; but is it
worth debating since Esther is a variation of the Babylonian
name Ishtar? Why would they be given names of a god and
goddess? This detail troubled me so much that for years I
doubted the authenticity of this book. It is a somewhat strange
book too since "God" isn't mentioned in it. It also bears a
resemblance of sorts to the Babylonian myth of the descent of
Ishtar into the underworld. She passes seven gates, removing an
article of clothing at each gate. You have noted of course how
prominent the number seven is in the book of Esther. And we
have Esther seemingly willing to approach death when she says,
"If I perish, I perish." (4:16)
I now accept this book as inspired. I see Mordecai supplanting
the pagan god Marduk and Esther the pagan goddess Ishtar. I
can't say how much of the myth of the descent of Ishtar into the
underworld is valid and how much isn't; but it appears to
contain some elements of truth. I read the Book of Esther as
containing the truth and am content to wonder how accurate or
inaccurate the pagan myth is.
I see the nastiest people, the enemies of the Jews, being wiped
out while more moderate and tolerant people benefited by having
Esther as their queen since many came to know of the One True
God even if was by fear at first.
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