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#Post#: 3448--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 12, 2015, 7:02 am
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Let me skip the mentioning of the dukes of Edom in Genesis for
now since that is a difficult passage; and while I have ideas on
it, I'm not certain in my own mind about how that chapter
should be read. Let's go to the chapter when Esau and Jacob
meet each other again after Jacob left Laban's house.
Genesis 32: And Jacob went on his way, and the angels of God met
him.
2 And when Jacob saw them, he said, This is God's host: and he
called the name of that place Mahanaim.
3 And Jacob sent messengers <angels> before him to Esau his
brother unto the land of Seir, the country of Edom.
The same word occurs in verses 1 and 3, which is hard to see if
reading this in English. So what kind of messengers did Jacob
send? I think he sent angelic messengers who talked to Esau
and came back to Jacob. Skipping down a little:
24 And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him
until the breaking of the day.
A man? So it seemed at first. I follow the Jewish tradition
that this "man" or "angel" was the Guardian Angel of Esau, of
the whole nation of Edomites.
25 And when he saw that he prevailed not against him, he touched
the hollow of his thigh; and the hollow of Jacob's thigh was out
of joint, as he wrestled with him.
26 And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I
will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
27 And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but
Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men,
and hast prevailed.
I see this as a spiritual battle in which Jacob defeated the
fallen Guardian Angel of Esau.
29 And Jacob asked him, and said, Tell me, I pray thee, thy
name. And he said, Wherefore is it that thou dost ask after my
name? And he blessed him there.
No name was given!
30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have
seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
He saw a manifestation of God of course, not God Himself.
Angels are like flames taken from a central fire. If you never
saw fire before, you don't need to see the whole central fire.
Seeing one flame taken from it is enough to convince you fire is
real and you saw it.
31 And as he passed over Penuel the sun rose upon him, and he
halted upon his thigh.
This should read "the sun rose for him" since that is how the
Hebrew reads. While Jacob was "crucified" in a way by the
wrenching of his "thigh," he also had the Sun of Righeousness
rise "for" him with healing in his wings (Malachi 4:2).
That was the spiritual meeting of the two brothers. Now we move
on to the physical.
33: And Jacob lifted up his eyes, and looked, and, behold, Esau
came, and with him four hundred men. And he divided the children
unto Leah, and unto Rachel, and unto the two handmaids.
2 And he put the handmaids and their children foremost, and Leah
and her children after, and Rachel and Joseph hindermost.
There is a Jewish tradition that says Jacob hid Dinah in a
trunk so Esau wouldn't see her and want to marry her. Some
Rabbis say this was a big error; if Esau had married Dinah, his
progeny would have been more godlike and history would have
been better.
3 And he passed over before them, and bowed himself to the
ground seven times, until he came near to his brother.
This was another big mistake since Jacob should not have bowed
to Esau. Jacob had the birthright and he had just defeated the
Guardian Angel of Esau. Moreover Benjamin was not born yet --
Benjamin the tribe out of which it was said kings would come.
35:11 And God said unto him, I am God Almighty: be fruitful and
multiply; a nation and a company of nations shall be of thee,
and kings shall come out of thy loins;
This bowing meant Benjamin was also bowing to Esau; and the
kings of the future were also bowing to the Edomites. We will
see several conflicts later between the Edomites and people from
the tribe of Benjamin. Back to chapter 33:
33:14 Let my lord, I pray thee, pass over before his servant:
and I will lead on softly, according as the cattle that goeth
before me and the children be able to endure, until I come unto
my lord unto Seir.
He never went, not in that lifetime. He was probably wise not
to. Sometimes one must be as wise as the serpent outwit the
serpent. And notice too Jacob was speaking gently. Yes,
wise as the serpent and gentle as the dove.
#Post#: 3449--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 12, 2015, 7:48 am
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Then we have the cursed tribe of Amalek. This tribe was so
horrible, Israel was told to wipe them out if they could. They
were descendants of Esau.
Genesis 36:12 And Timna was concubine to Eliphaz Esau's son; and
she bare to Eliphaz Amalek: these were the sons of Adah Esau's
wife.
When Israel left Egypt, the Amalekites tried to stop them; and
the wicked prophet Balaam also tried. It is said that Balaam
was Laban reincarnated -- and just as he tried to stop Jacob
from returning, as Balaam he also tried.
Do not think however that Israel was told to start the problem.
The Amalekites started it; and then Israel was told to wipe
them out. Here is part of Balaam's prophecy which he spoke to
Balak the Amalekite king.
Numbers 24:17 I shall see him, but not now: I shall behold him,
but not nigh: there shall come a Star out of Jacob, and a
Sceptre shall rise out of Israel, and shall smite the corners of
Moab, and destroy all the children of Sheth.
18 And Edom shall be a possession, Seir also shall be a
possession for his enemies; and Israel shall do valiantly.
19 Out of Jacob shall come he that shall have dominion, and
shall destroy him that remaineth of the city.
Easily seen as a refernce to Jesus by Christians; but it also
refers to King David, I'd say. That is no problem for me since
I see David as a prior incarnation of Jesus.
20 And when he looked on Amalek, he took up his parable, and
said, Amalek was the first of the nations; but his latter end
shall be that he perish for ever.
Why the "first of nations"? Does this mean they were the most
prominent in the area? The oldest? What? I say it means they
represented the "most prominent" branch of the Edomites, a race
that had existed prior to Eden and then got born into the Adamic
race via the Edomites. I think only the most wicked of souls
chose to be born into this tribe.
Numbers 25:1 And Israel abode in Shittim, and the people began
to commit whoredom with the daughters of Moab.
2 And they called the people unto the sacrifices of their gods:
and the people did eat, and bowed down to their gods.
3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the
Lord was kindled against Israel.
This was done on the advice of Balaam who knew Israel could not
be defeated militarily. He advised the king of Moab to get
women to seduce the men of Israel by pretending to be enamored
of them. The naive men of Israel believed these women, never
suspecting women would offer their bodies in order to deceive.
It was this disaster which took the priesthood away from the
oldest sons of each household and gave it to Aaron. Again the
"sun" is mentioned. While physical heads may have been put out
under the physical sun, we should also believe that a spiritual
sun was purifying evil out of Israel.
4 And the Lord said unto Moses, Take all the heads of the
people, and hang them up before the Lord against the sun, that
the fierce anger of the Lord may be turned away from Israel.
5 And Moses said unto the judges of Israel, Slay ye every one
his men that were joined unto Baalpeor.
6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought
unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and
in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel,
who were weeping before the door of the tabernacle of the
congregation.
7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the
priest, saw it, he rose up from among the congregation, and took
a javelin in his hand;
8 And he went after the man of Israel into the tent, and thrust
both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through
her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.
9 And those that died in the plague were twenty and four
thousand.
10 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
11 Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest,
hath turned my wrath away from the children of Israel, while he
was zealous for my sake among them, that I consumed not the
children of Israel in my jealousy.
12 Wherefore say, Behold, I give unto him my covenant of peace:
13 And he shall have it, and his seed after him, even the
covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was zealous
for his God, and made an atonement for the children of Israel.
Balaam as a prophet is an interesting character. He knows he
can't curse Israel; but since he hates them, he does what he can
which is trick them into sinning. And he did that by appealing
to the good but naive nature of the men who believed the women
wanted to be their wives when their real aim was to get them to
commit idolatry.
But returning to the Amalekites, we see they were the "first"
to attack Israel.
Exodus 17:8 Then came Amalek, and fought with Israel in
Rephidim.
9 And Moses said unto Joshua, Choose us out men, and go out,
fight with Amalek: to morrow I will stand on the top of the hill
with the rod of God in mine hand.
10 So Joshua did as Moses had said to him, and fought with
Amalek: and Moses, Aaron, and Hur went up to the top of the
hill.
11 And it came to pass, when Moses held up his hand, that Israel
prevailed: and when he let down his hand, Amalek prevailed.
12 But Moses hands were heavy; and they took a stone, and put it
under him, and he sat thereon; and Aaron and Hur stayed up his
hands, the one on the one side, and the other on the other side;
and his hands were steady until the going down of the sun.
13 And Joshua discomfited Amalek and his people with the edge of
the sword.
14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a
book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly
put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.
15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it
Jehovahnissi:
16 For he said, Because the Lord hath sworn that the Lord will
have war with Amalek from generation to generation.
This is mentioned again:
Deuteronomy 25:17 Remember what Amalek did unto thee by the way,
when ye were come forth out of Egypt;
18 How he met thee by the way, and smote the hindmost of thee,
even all that were feeble behind thee, when thou wast faint and
weary; and he feared not God.
19 Therefore it shall be, when the Lord thy God hath given thee
rest from all thine enemies round about, in the land which the
Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance to possess it, that
thou shalt blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven;
thou shalt not forget it.
#Post#: 3450--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: bradley Date: December 12, 2015, 10:01 am
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I assume Dinah was a daughter of Issac and Leah?
#Post#: 3452--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 12, 2015, 2:48 pm
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Leah had Dinah right before Rachel had Joseph.
Genesis 30:20 And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good
dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born
him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.
21 And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name
Dinah.
22 And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and
opened her womb.
23 And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken
away my reproach:
24 And she called his name Joseph; and said, The Lord shall add
to me another son.
25 And it came to pass, when Rachel had born Joseph, that Jacob
said unto Laban, Send me away, that I may go unto mine own
place, and to my country.
A Jewish tradition says that "fire" was added to the house of
Jacob when Joseph was born; and this gave Jacob the courage to
say it was time to leave Laban's household. They cite a prophet
about this "fire."
Obadiah 1:18 And the house of Jacob shall be a fire, and the
house of Joseph a flame, and the house of Esau for stubble, and
they shall kindle in them, and devour them; and there shall not
be any remaining of the house of Esau; for the Lord hath spoken
it.
If the story of Dinah being hidden in a trunk is right, there
is another reason she might have been better off married to Esau
since she was violated later by Shechem the son of Hamor the
Hivite (Genesis 34).
#Post#: 3453--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: bradley Date: December 12, 2015, 11:37 pm
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Yes, I remember the story of her being violated. Wasnt it
Judah and another brother who killed all the males after they
misled them concerning that they must be circumcised and while
recovering from circumcision they were struck down? I assume
she would have been better off with Esau than that rapist.
#Post#: 3454--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 14, 2015, 12:56 am
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I had to look it up. I knew it was two of Leah's sons but not
sure which ones. It was Simeon and Levi.
Genesis 34:25 And it came to pass on the third day, when they
were sore, that two of the sons of Jacob, Simeon and Levi,
Dinah's brethren, took each man his sword, and came upon the
city boldly, and slew all the males.
Jacob refers to this later in his predictions of the future of
his sons and their tribes.
Genesis 49:And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather
yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall
you in the last days.
. . .
5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are in
their habitations.
6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their
assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger
they slew a man, and in their selfwill they digged down a wall.
7 Cursed be their anger, for it was fierce; and their wrath, for
it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in
Israel.
Why did he say "a man" when they slew many? Well, Hamor and
the men of Shechem are considered as one man in a way. Compare
to:
Judges 6:16 And the Lord said unto him, Surely I will be with
thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
Exodus 15:1 Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song
unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for
he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he
thrown into the sea.
Notice too how Dinah is described as a daughter of Leah.
Genesis 34:1 And Dinah the daughter of Leah, which she bare unto
Jacob, went out to see the daughters of the land.
Why phrase it this way? Possibly says one Jewish explanation
because she was like her mother in "going out."
Genesis 30:16 And Jacob came out of the field in the evening,
and Leah went out to meet him, and said, Thou must come in unto
me; for surely I have hired thee with my son's mandrakes. And he
lay with her that night.
#Post#: 3455--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 14, 2015, 6:18 am
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Let's jump forward now to discuss Doeg the Edomite and how he
subverted King Saul who was of the tribe of Benjamin of course.
We see Benjamin still "bowing" more or less to Esau. Doeg is
mentioned shortly after David got the "hallowed bread" from
Ahimelech.
1 Samuel 21:6 So the priest gave him hallowed bread: for there
was no bread there but the shewbread, that was taken from before
the LORD, to put hot bread in the day when it was taken away.
7 Now a certain man of the servants of Saul was there that day,
detained before the LORD; and his name was Doeg, an Edomite, the
chiefest of the herdmen that belonged to Saul.
"Detained" means Doeg was studying the Torah. David fled, of
course; but the priests did not. Now look at what Doeg did.
Like Cain, his misdeeds began with words.
1 Samuel 22:6 When Saul heard that David was discovered, and the
men that were with him, (now Saul abode in Gibeah under a tree
in Ramah, having his spear in his hand, and all his servants
were standing about him;)
7 Then Saul said unto his servants that stood about him, Hear
now, ye Benjamites; will the son of Jesse give every one of you
fields and vineyards, and make you all captains of thousands,
and captains of hundreds;
Where David was camped out was on the border of the territory of
Benjamin; and it seems no one from the tribe of Benjamin had
seen fit to inform King Saul of it.
8 That all of you have conspired against me, and there is none
that sheweth me that my son hath made a league with the son of
Jesse, and there is none of you that is sorry for me, or sheweth
unto me that my son hath stirred up my servant against me, to
lie in wait, as at this day?
9 Then answered Doeg the Edomite, which was set over the
servants of Saul, and said, I saw the son of Jesse coming to
Nob, to Ahimelech the son of Ahitub.
A tattletale who sought to curry favor by his tattling.
10 And he enquired of the LORD for him, and gave him victuals,
and gave him the sword of Goliath the Philistine.
11 Then the king sent to call Ahimelech the priest, the son of
Ahitub, and all his father's house, the priests that were in
Nob: and they came all of them to the king.
12 And Saul said, Hear now, thou son of Ahitub. And he answered,
Here I am, my lord.
13 And Saul said unto him, Why have ye conspired against me,
thou and the son of Jesse, in that thou hast given him bread,
and a sword, and hast enquired of God for him, that he should
rise against me, to lie in wait, as at this day?
The priests were not supposed to inquire of Urim and Thummim for
commoners, only kings. Had Ahimelech done this? He said not.
The text doesn't say Doeg alleged he had; but I rather think
perhaps he embroidered on the truth a bit.
14 Then Ahimelech answered the king, and said, And who is so
faithful among all thy servants as David, which is the king's
son in law, and goeth at thy bidding, and is honourable in thine
house?
15 Did I then begin to enquire of God for him? be it far from
me: let not the king impute any thing unto his servant, nor to
all the house of my father: for thy servant knew nothing of all
this, less or more.
16 And the king said, Thou shalt surely die, Ahimelech, thou,
and all thy father's house.
Saul got that idea from someone unless he was imagining things
himself; and he believed it even after Ahimelech denied it; and
he seems so sure it's true he thinks Ahimelech should die for
it.
17 And the king said unto the footmen that stood about him,
Turn, and slay the priests of the LORD: because their hand also
is with David, and because they knew when he fled, and did not
shew it to me. But the servants of the king would not put forth
their hand to fall upon the priests of the LORD.
What Saul was commanding was unlawful. There should have
been a trial with witnesses to condemn even the lowliest person
to death. Two or more witnesses of good reputation would have
to testify to same thing in court before a sentence of death
could be passed; but Saul was paranoid and impatient. His
paranoia and irrationality did not impress the footmen who
refused to kill the priests.
18 And the king said to Doeg, Turn thou, and fall upon the
priests. And Doeg the Edomite turned, and he fell upon the
priests, and slew on that day fourscore and five persons that
did wear a linen ephod.
19 And Nob, the city of the priests, smote he with the edge of
the sword, both men and women, children and sucklings, and oxen,
and asses, and sheep, with the edge of the sword.
Doeg started this trouble by tattling and now he's committing
murder to please Saul. It's murder since there was no trial in
court. And it's sacrilege too. Saul certainly thought Doeg
was his faithful servant; but I'd say Doeg was undermining him.
20 And one of the sons of Ahimelech the son of Ahitub, named
Abiathar, escaped, and fled after David.
21 And Abiathar shewed David that Saul had slain the LORD's
priests.
22 And David said unto Abiathar, I knew it that day, when Doeg
the Edomite was there, that he would surely tell Saul: I have
occasioned the death of all the persons of thy father's house.
23 Abide thou with me, fear not: for he that seeketh my life
seeketh thy life: but with me thou shalt be in safeguard.
Benjamin was still being bamboozled and manipulated by Esau.
#Post#: 3456--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 14, 2015, 6:59 am
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Saul had previously disobeyed concerning the Amalekites too. He
was told to kill them all wherever he could and he didn't do it.
1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, I remember that
which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way,
when he came up from Egypt.
3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they
have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant
and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
. . . .
8 And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly
destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.
9 But Saul and the people spared Agag, and the best of the
sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and
all that was good, and would not utterly destroy them: but every
thing that was vile and refuse, that they destroyed utterly.
This sounds harsh to modern ears; but I say these people and
even their animals posed a threat to the entire human race. I
further don't believe these people were truly human.
Then even worse, he lied to God. Samuel had the Spirit of God
in him in a special way just as Peter did; and when you lie to
someone who has the Spirit in that way, you are lying to God.
13 And Samuel came to Saul: and Saul said unto him, Blessed be
thou of the LORD: I have performed the commandment of the Lord.
Not a very convincing lie as you can see. . . .
14 And Samuel said, What meaneth then this bleating of the sheep
in mine ears, and the lowing of the oxen which I hear?
15 And Saul said, They have brought them from the Amalekites:
for the people spared the best of the sheep and of the oxen, to
sacrifice unto the Lord thy God; and the rest we have utterly
destroyed.
16 Then Samuel said unto Saul, Stay, and I will tell thee what
the LORD hath said to me this night. And he said unto him, Say
on.
17 And Samuel said, When thou wast little in thine own sight,
wast thou not made the head of the tribes of Israel, and the
Lord anointed thee king over Israel?
18 And the Lord sent thee on a journey, and said, Go and utterly
destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until
they be consumed.
19 Wherefore then didst thou not obey the voice of the LORD, but
didst fly upon the spoil, and didst evil in the sight of the
Lord?
20 And Saul said unto Samuel, Yea, I have obeyed the voice of
the Lord, and have gone the way which the Lord sent me, and have
brought Agag the king of Amalek, and have utterly destroyed the
Amalekites.
21 But the people took of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief
of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to
sacrifice unto the LORD thy God in Gilgal.
He was king, so how could he blame the people? Saying it was
to sacrifice was also completely inappropriate.
22 And Samuel said, Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt
offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD?
Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than
the fat of rams.
23 For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness
is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word
of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from being king.
24 And Saul said unto Samuel, I have sinned: for I have
transgressed the commandment of the LORD, and thy words: because
I feared the people, and obeyed their voice.
25 Now therefore, I pray thee, pardon my sin, and turn again
with me, that I may worship the LORD.
26 And Samuel said unto Saul, I will not return with thee: for
thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, and the LORD hath
rejected thee from being king over Israel.
When people are in positions of power, they should be held to a
higher standard. If someone shows he's unfit, why risk
continuing to trust him?
27 And as Samuel turned about to go away, he laid hold upon the
skirt of his mantle, and it rent.
28 And Samuel said unto him, The LORD hath rent the kingdom of
Israel from thee this day, and hath given it to a neighbour of
thine, that is better than thou.
It is said also that since Saul had rent Samuel's garment, Saul
knew David would reign after him since he took it as a sign when
David ruined Saul's garment by cutting part of it off.
1 Samuel 15:20 And now, behold, I know well that thou shalt
surely be king, and that the kingdom of Israel shall be
established in thine hand.
Back to Agag now.
29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for
he is not a man, that he should repent.
30 Then he said, I have sinned: yet honour me now, I pray thee,
before the elders of my people, and before Israel, and turn
again with me, that I may worship the LORD thy God.
31 So Samuel turned again after Saul; and Saul worshipped the
LORD.
I think Saul could have retrieved himself spiritually had he
sincerely wanted to worship God and then continued to be
faithful up to the day he lost the kingdom. Had he accepted
this judgment as just, I think he would have lost his kingdom
but been forgiven spiritually.
32 Then said Samuel, Bring ye hither to me Agag the king of the
Amalekites. And Agag came unto him delicately. And Agag said,
Surely the bitterness of death is past.
33 And Samuel said, As thy sword hath made women childless, so
shall thy mother be childless among women. And Samuel hewed Agag
in pieces before the Lord in Gilgal.
This detail of cutting him into pieces is very important since
generally speaking the soul takes on its form from the body.
In spiritually perfected persons, this is not true; and in the
case of most people, the soul possesses enough knowledge that
after the death of the physical body, it still retains a "human
form" more or less; but if you cut someone into bits, the soul
can also be cut up and this dazes and confuses it. Feeding a
body to wild animals can also daze a soul. Wicked souls were
hewn or fed to animals to make the soul less likely to survive
as one being.
It's also worth nothing that the penalty for violating a
covenant was to be cut into pieces. A covenant frequently
involved the cutting apart of animals; and the penalty for
violating that covenant, for wasting the life of the animals,
was to suffer the same fate yourself.
Jeremiah 34:18 And I will give the men that have transgressed my
covenant, which have not performed the words of the covenant
which they had made before me, when they cut the calf in twain,
and passed between the parts thereof,
19 The princes of Judah, and the princes of Jerusalem, the
eunuchs, and the priests, and all the people of the land, which
passed between the parts of the calf;
20 I will even give them into the hand of their enemies, and
into the hand of them that seek their life: and their dead
bodies shall be for meat unto the fowls of the heaven, and to
the beasts of the earth.
The unclean animals can eat such bodies without harm to
themselves and my belief is that their souls are also frequently
destroyed and taken out of existence. The spirit can get a
new soul -- having a filthy and hopelessly degraded soul to work
with is not necessarily the best of plans. Thus I see Jezebel
being eaten by dogs as doing her spirit a favor, and we should
thank the dogs for removing such evil from the world.
34 Then Samuel went to Ramah; and Saul went up to his house to
Gibeah of Saul.
35 And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his
death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD
repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
This verse is one which makes it hard for me to believe God
foreknows everything. I think Saul could have done better.
Things were not written in stone. His refusal to deal with the
Amalekites was not part of God's plan; and his later succumbing
to the wiles of Doeg the Edomite and also his resorting to
consulting a necromancer were not part of God's plan. I
think it very right of Samuel to mourn since Saul had potential
to do much better and once had been a very fine man. I think
David also mourned later (2 Samuel 1) when he learned Saul was
dead since he knew what a fine man Saul had been once. I think
his sorrow was genuine.
#Post#: 3457--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: bradley Date: December 14, 2015, 2:19 pm
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You know, I try to be led by the spirit as much as I am able,
and oft times, I do things that seem right in my spirit, yet I
dont really know the exact scriptures that would back up my
thoughts. I am a sort of spiritual warrior, and a dream
warrior as well, and in my dreams I often use a spiritual sword,
sort of like an extension of my own hand, but when I use the
sword on an enemy spirit attacking me, I naturally cut it up
into pieces. That sort of falls into line with what you are
saying about cutting into pieces.
#Post#: 3469--------------------------------------------------
Re: Problems about how the Bible treats children
By: Kerry Date: December 17, 2015, 7:36 pm
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[quote author=bradley link=topic=384.msg3457#msg3457
date=1450124377]
You know, I try to be led by the spirit as much as I am able,
and oft times, I do things that seem right in my spirit, yet I
dont really know the exact scriptures that would back up my
thoughts. I am a sort of spiritual warrior, and a dream
warrior as well, and in my dreams I often use a spiritual sword,
sort of like an extension of my own hand, but when I use the
sword on an enemy spirit attacking me, I naturally cut it up
into pieces. That sort of falls into line with what you are
saying about cutting into pieces.
[/quote]Such things occur on what some call the "astral plane"
-- and what the Bible sometimes calls "the sea" -- or "lower
waters."
"Things" can show up there first -- and then they seek to take
on "form" in the physical world. This is one of the principals
of "magic" in fact. The same principal can be used in
righteous prayer too. The spirit first forms entities on the
astral plane and these interact with the physical world --
putting pressure on events in the physical world so that what is
true "in the sea" becomes true in the physical world. This can
be for good or evil.
We have many examples of "things" coming out of the sea in the
Bible. Some are predicted by prophecies as necessary
developments in man's progressing history; but other things
which come "out of the sea" are not so pleasant.
Thus we see the "four beasts" of Daniel coming out of the sea --
first true on the astral plane and then taking shape in human
history.
Even when chopped into small pieces, some entities have a way of
reassembling themselves over time. (Thus we have the beast of
the water with the wound that heals itself.) It's still a good
plan to keep chopping them into bits since while they're in tiny
bits, mankind doesn't have to deal with such negative entities.
But negative emotions of people help put them back together
again.
Eventually positive lifeforms "eat" these tiny bits and change
them from evil to good. The soul force in general can be
called Leviathan. It was corrupted long ago. It was broken
into pieces; and the "new" lifeforms made in Genesis "ate" it.
This battle with Leviathan as the major fallen entity out of
which other negative entities take form continues. In the time
of Moses, an ordeal with Leviathan happened -- and "bits" of
Leviathan were given to Israel to eat.
Psalm 74:14 Thou brakest the heads of leviathan in pieces, and
gavest him to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness.
The "energy" contained in this soulforce is can be positive or
negative -- but until the negative manifestations are broken up
and changed, immortality of human souls is not going to
happen. In the Messianic Age, all the negative energy
contained in Leviathan will be chopped into bits and
God-designed lifeforms will eat it all and transform it into the
positive soul-energy needed to make souls immortal.
Having sympathy for such fallen monstrous manifestations of life
is misguided. Such manifestations of life are not happy and
also make everyone else unhappy.
I would say "as a general rule," saints are protected from the
negative lifeforms on the astral plane -- unless a particular
saint is given the ability to deal with them by chopping them
into bits. The person with this ability knows what to do, how
to do it, and without the need for instruction from the Bible.
Indeed some things may be better off not described in Scripture
lest unholy men study them and use them for evil. It might
also tempt some saints to try to find such monsters so they can
cut them up -- when those saints could fall into error doing it.
There must be a certain attitude when dealing with such
monstrous things on the astral plane. If the attitude is wrong,
you risk becoming like them.
More positive manifestations are projected in the "upper
waters" where the monsters from the sea below cannot reach.
When these manifestations wish to materialize, it's said they
appear "in clouds." The process is different too. Physical
objects can be made to appear seemingly "out of nothing." So
far as I know, black magicians are unable to make objects
appear that way -- they are restricted to trying to form things
"in the sea" and then summoning up if they can.
I have heard "prophets" on the radio predicting this and that.
Some were horrible things -- and I was convinced the "prophets"
who were saying them were actually practicing black magic --
without knowing it. They were seeing monstrous things on the
astral plane and thought God was behind them. They then made
dire prophecies. I pray about such things, and I pray that the
negative things they are seeing get dissolved or cut up. Most
of the time when I've prayed that way, their prophecies fail.
I'm not doing it myself with a sword, often can't even see what
is going on -- but I think angels are doing to do it.
I have seen some things though. There are "things" that enjoy
chasing people on the astral plane. They enjoy causing fear.
If you are standing in the Light of God, the truth is they
can't touch you. I stopped once and turned and reached out my
hand -- and the entity (whatever it was) ran away from me. I
knew, just knew, it would have "gone out of existence" if I had
touched it, and it knew it too. Finger or sword? Perhaps
it's the same thing in a way? What I am confident is true is
if you have a sword that can do it, it probably has something to
do with the Divine Light -- which dark entities cannot deal
with.
The "sea" in which things happen is fascinating.
Matthew 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net,
that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down,
and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come
forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be
wailing and gnashing of teeth.
What is good in the sea is gathered and preserved -- is saved.
What is not good now gets thrown back into the sea as a rule for
recycling; but "in the end of the world," what has not been
redeemed by recycling will be burned by fire. This recycling
is important as we see in the previous passage:
45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man,
seeking goodly pearls:
46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and
sold all that he had, and bought it.
Pearls are formed out of mud and muck that is dissolved in the
sea -- by unclean creatures who can eat yucky stuff but still
produce something of great value out of that muck. But that
muck can't be turned into pearls if it's already in some "solid"
form. It has to be dissolved into tiny bits so the oyster can
absorb it and convert it. Chopping up negative things or
dissolving them for recycling is part of life that leads to
better things in the future.
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