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#Post#: 502--------------------------------------------------
Re: Covenants
By: Kerry Date: December 17, 2014, 6:20 pm
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[quote author=Al link=topic=38.msg499#msg499 date=1418830164]
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First, let me ask if you accept the concept of "original sin"
First, let me ask if you accept the concept of "original sin"
that Augustine invented?
yes i believe in original sin
that Augustine invented?
but like the rapture said to be Darby's invention
i didn't learn of their concepts or arguments from either
original sin from Augustine nor the rapture from Darby
Catholics do of course and many Protestants do too. The
Orthodox Church doesn't, and the Jews don't.
like i said ; i don't care who said --- but more of what was
said
Are babies born "guilty" of sin?
before i answer this
i will ask a question --- it goes to the issue of what i am
saying
in genesis six ; if angels mated with women
and then the angels killed the offspring instantly --- would it
go to heaven?
--- did it sin ?
original sin
Adam and Eve left the family of GOD
they hid from GOD
but did they hide from each other? * we today always think in
terms after the fall and not before
JESUS came to "make" children of God
JOHN ONE 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who
believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of
God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human
decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.
IF YOU HAVE TO "MAKE"; then what it was wasn't what you make *
kinda kills the elect formula
now back to are babies born with sin?
was your daughter in law born as part of your family ?
she had to be "made" your family
so ; a child from parents out of the family of GOD
ARE STILL outside the family of GOD WHICH IS WHAT ORIGINAL SIN
IS ALL ABOUT --- "Imo"
so yes ; they are born sinners thou they themselves haven't
committed a sin * like those offspring of the angels and
women
*
will they automatically go to heaven?
*
will anyone go to heaven without Jesus and what he did? [/quote]
You have God punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.
Our assumptions are different, so our conclusions will be too.
[quote]Then there is this hard question of what to do with these
passages. The first:
[b]Numbers 14:18 The Lord is longsuffering, and of great mercy,
forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing
the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the
children unto the third and fourth generation.
Is it forgiving and merciful to punish children for the sins of
their ancestors? Can we read it that way? Some do[/b]
when it comes to the old man "out of the family of GOD"
ALL SHARE THE SAME FATE
the long-suffering, merciful, forgiving iniquity and
transgression is for that "new ( man) creation "
NOT THE MOST IN DEPTH ANSWER ; but it the best i have on this
subject
Then we have this:
[b]Ezekiel 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the
iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is
lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done
them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear
the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the
iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be
upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon
him.[/b]
20. ok; all ( the old man) have sinned
but any son that has become that "new( man) creation" does not
reason: its the old man who sins
----------------------------------------------------- requires a
different conversation
but we can say there is a difference between what was ( the old
man) and what Jesus came to "make"
The problem is how both passages can be true.
concept : old man vs. new creation
like i said ; not the most in depth answers but the best short
answers i have
[/quote]Yes, the problem is how both can be true. I don't think
it can be explained if we believe that God punishes the innocent
for the sins of the guilty.
#Post#: 504--------------------------------------------------
Re: Covenants
By: Kerry Date: December 17, 2014, 7:04 pm
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[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=38.msg500#msg500
date=1418830360]
[font=courier]God always does or is prepared to do his part in a
covenant with men. When a man moves rightly for his part, God is
on top of the situation and covenant between and that one is
begun or further strengthened. The timelines suggested by DM
(whether taken literally or not) show us how long-lasting the
tie between us and God can be. 25,000 years for our finite minds
may seem to be infinite or eternal.
All of the little pieces of the puzzle, when God gives to us and
shows us their proper place, will bring to us more clearly a
completed picture (vision) of what He has for us. In a perfect
and unending (or 25,000 year long) covenant with Him will then
our vision be, or seem to be, the "face to face" of which Paul
wrote?[/font]
[/quote]I read it to mean eternal myself.
#Post#: 506--------------------------------------------------
Re: Covenants
By: Alfie Date: December 18, 2014, 2:30 am
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=38.msg502#msg502
date=1418862014]
You have God punishing the innocent for the sins of the guilty.
Our assumptions are different, so our conclusions will be too.
Yes, the problem is how both can be true. I don't think it can
be explained if we believe that God punishes the innocent for
the sins of the guilty.
[/quote]
just my concluding remarks
original sin = out of the family
no one is innocent of being out of the family
to get back in the family , it requires Jesus
during this process the old man becomes the new (man) creation
you didn't answer the question of the offspring of angels and
women
your logic seems to require their innocents
your logic seems to require their entrance into heaven --- or
did i miss something ?
#Post#: 508--------------------------------------------------
Re: Covenants
By: Kerry Date: December 18, 2014, 6:15 am
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[quote author=Al link=topic=38.msg506#msg506 date=1418891402]
original sin = out of the family
no one is innocent of being out of the family[/quote]What did
children do to be put out of the family? Why would God do that
to them if they never did anything wrong?
[quote]to get back in the family , it requires Jesus
during this process the old man becomes the new (man) creation
[/quote]Tough luck for anyone born before Jesus was born then,
right? And why wait so long before Jesus came? Why let all
those people be born "out of the family" without a prayer of
redemption? God didn't care about them?
[quote]you didn't answer the question of the offspring of angels
and women [/quote]
No, I didn't.
[quote]your logic seems to require their innocents
your logic seems to require their entrance into heaven --- or
did i miss something ?[/quote]
I don't consider the offspring of angels and women "human."
Those beings were like cancer in the body of humanity,
threatening everyone else.
However the beings called the fallen angels or the "gods" will
eventually be restored, yes. And almost all the offspring of
Adam will be too. The hybrids are something else. They should
never have existed.
#Post#: 513--------------------------------------------------
Re: Covenants
By: Helen Date: December 18, 2014, 7:16 pm
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I think many people are confused between the sin nature and
"sins". A child is born in Adam with the Adamic sin nature, (
give it a few weeks and it is " give me, give me give me, feed
me NOW" ) ...yet it is free of sins..sin is the transgression of
The of The Law...the new law Jesus laid which enfolded all 'The'
law, is Love. A baby has not transgressed love, it has not
"missed the mark".
Obviously if it died to would be in Fathers arms..it has no
wages to pay to sin. It has not transgressed it's conscience.
As for the belief of "the sons of God and the daughters of men"
being fallen angels and mankind..Phtt..
That is the sons of God righteous line and the daughters of Cain
line, in my book...anything else make no sense at all.
#Post#: 526--------------------------------------------------
Re: Covenants
By: Alfie Date: December 19, 2014, 6:57 am
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=38.msg513#msg513 date=1418951816]
I think many people are confused between the sin nature and
"sins". A child is born in Adam with the Adamic sin nature, (
give it a few weeks and it is " give me, give me give me, feed
me NOW" ) ...yet it is free of sins..sin is the transgression of
The of The Law...the new law Jesus laid which enfolded all 'The'
law, is Love. A baby has not transgressed love, it has not
"missed the mark".
Obviously if it died to would be in Fathers arms..it has no
wages to pay to sin. It has not transgressed it's conscience.
As for the belief of "the sons of God and the daughters of men"
being fallen angels and mankind..Phtt..
That is the sons of God righteous line and the daughters of Cain
line, in my book...anything else make no sense at all.
[/quote]
well of coarse we all have opinions here ;
and this forum in name anyways
is where issues and ideas can be brought civilly
with that in mind i respond
who was Cain's wife ?
there are 2 theories here
1- sister
2- niece
*** niece is absurd
we have Cain unmarried so he can't create his own niece at this
time
we have Abel who is younger and unlikely married
so the idea of sister remains
fair enough; this at first glace it sounds good
trouble is as the bible story is fresh in its making
we have already missed the story
using what comes next
without knowing this will only lead us down a "rabbit trail"
and sooner or later if we are to understand the things that come
later
we will have to come back to "here"
in john one we see the light
this light is Jesus
and he was with God
but he also was God in the beginning * THAT OLD TIME FAVORITE
OF
GOD is the Father
GOD is the Son
GOD is the Holy Spirit
The father is not the son or holy spirit
the son is not the father or holy spirit
the Holy Spirit is not the father or the son
* is only an explanation of [b]with God [/b]
IT DOESN'T "jive" WAS GOD
* WAS; something that in times past existed
but is not that way now
and that is the problem
as we look at the bible and its story
things are and things change because of certain events
* the pyramid of Geza :
Adam didn't know of it
Enoch knew of it -------- an event change this ; and
its important because of
Isaiah 19
19 In that day there will be an altar to the Lord in the heart
of Egypt,
and a monument to the Lord at its border.
20 It will be a sign and witness to the Lord Almighty in the
land of Egypt
* the order of Melchizedek
Melchizedek did not know the law --- an event in the
future"law; 10 commandments" changes the story
* Moses didn't see Ruth's part in the kinsman redeemer
---- an event changes the story
though he should have seen it from Judah
but it didn't make sense then as the story was
filled out then
* Boaz and Ruth had no idea it would take a Bathsheba
to make a kings line for David --- an event changed
the story
the above are facts!!!
order is rule here ; for there is no King David without the
above
and the same is true of angels and women producing off spring
in the beginning there was 2 cows ( hypothetical )
God made one then he made another ---
WHAT WE ARE NOT SEEING IS THAT IS NOT THE STORY OF MANKIND
REMEMBER ; WE ARE TALKING THEN ; WE ARE NOT TALKING NOW
HE MADE MAN he made Adam
he made them ( singular) male and female
for EVE is not that second made cow
she is a part of Adam
story to illustrate
there once was an amoeba who name was George
one day he split into 2 parts
which one is George ?
GOD ----> splits and JESUS and the HOLY SPIRIT go from WAS GOD
to WITH GOD
WHAT ? THAT'S CRAZY
want to see it illustrated in the bible? it is allegorical
just like the parables ; it is there but it takes more than just
reading it
you have to think it through
WATER ---> becomes WATER sky ----- land / WATER
* GOD * JESUS I *
HOLY SPIRIT
one GOD drink offering I
poured out I
slain/ separated I
before the foundations of the world
i know Paul speaks in these terms to describe "predestination"
but before the foundations of the world is about the above
and not predestination ; for Jesus provides a way for all of
mankind
* A
DRINK OFFERING
did you think this was because GOD was thirsty?
like GOD ---> becomes FATHER with JESUS
Adam -------> becomes ADAM with EVE * HE MADE THEM male and
female ; but they are one
children
creation is not like now ;
EVENTS CHANGE THINGS
book of ADAM and EVE
*
WARNING ; THERE IS A MISTAKE IN HERE
this is cause by those writing this
have taken ideas and agendas from "now" or their time
and have not used the order of the bible in filling out the
story
but yet ; there is truth in this story too.
birth of Cain
he is born with a twin sister ; i will call her CAIN-F
birth of Abel
he is born with a twin sister; i will call her ABEL-F
Matthew 5 New International Version (NIV)
the Sermon on the Mount~* the part that most don't connect with
the sermon
Murder
21 “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You
shall not murder,[a] and anyone who murders will be subject to
judgment.’
Adultery
27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit
adultery.’[e] 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman
lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Divorce
31 “It has been said, ‘Anyone who divorces his wife must give
her a certificate of divorce.’[f] 32 But I tell you that anyone
who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her
the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman
commits adultery
now let us look at Cain and Abel and their story
m- Cain and f- Cain
m Abel and f-Abel
* the story says f-Cain is LULUWA
LULUWA is said to be the most beautiful woman
more beautiful than her sister; and even her mother, EVE * BUT
HERE IS THE TWIST
more beautiful she is
and she ends up with m-CAIN
but who she is ... she is ABEL-F
THE BIRTH OF CAIN is like the creation of Adam and Eve IN THAT
in the birth ; THEY ARE ONE * SOUL-MATES
but m-CAIN WANTS THE MORE BEAUTIFUL and he doesn't want what he
has
going back ; Adam and Eve were naked
and they though ; "action" should be taken to cover themselves
thus; they covered with fig leaves ( plants)
------------------------------ but God said no
AND WHEN; the time for
the sons of Adam came
to make an offering
for sin;
CAIN, a farmer offered
from his works ( plants)
and GOD said no
* the no;
was for plants
and not
for CAIN was evil
the
spawn of Satan
or any
other such nonsense
to cover nakedness ( being out side the family of GOD )
IT WOULD REQUIRE ( blood)
and GOD made them coats out of
first created
animals-------------------------------------------------------
and GOD said yes
in that offering
for sin
Abel was a
herdsman
so he offered
animals
and GOD said yes
* the yes;
was for animals
(blood)
the yes
was not for ; Abel was righteous
for had
Cain offered animals
the
answer would have been yes
the
lesson wasn't about whose good and whose bad
for both
of these brothers were
out of
the family of GOD
and it
would take blood to bring them back
MURDER---- M- CAIN kills M- ABEL PROTOTYPE JEWS
they don't intermarry
ADULTERY-- M- CAIN marries F- ABEL PROTOTYPE HEATHENS
they intermarry against creation
DIVORCE -- F- CAIN ; left alone
now GOD steps in
M- SETH is born
he is born without a twin sister
he grows up and marries F- CAIN
M- SETH marries F- CAIN PROTOTYPE
GENTILES they intermarry in God's provision
end of part one
you may or may not have seen ;
the law ; the 10 commandments ; are much more than DO's and
DON'T-s ; they are
what happened with mankind in genesis pre-flood times
they are given to us to show ... we are the same as no one can
keep them
they show us ... we need a savior
the how this can be done ... is the old testament
the who can do this ... is the new testament
old testament -----> JESUS <--- ACTS TO JUDE is to point back to
JESUS
yes i know this is long
but it is my answer
and i know of no other way to say it
i give my answer here ; in this forum
for it is the first forum in which i fell comfortable ( free to
say my thoughts ; without being face to face; non forum style)
for those i bore --- please bear with my thought and skip these
posts ; i promise i won't feel bad
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