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#Post#: 313--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: Poppy Date: December 8, 2014, 10:02 am
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[quote=Nonny]That sent me on a mental 'paper chase'; the thought
being that everything we read in the Bible is so deeply
entrenched in the Jewish religion.[/quote]
I like this site which has a lot of useful Jewish info on it:
HTML http://theonlinebibleschool.org/courses/141-contents-jewish-roots/241-1-understand-jewish-mind-jewish-roots.html
#Post#: 315--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 8, 2014, 5:05 pm
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[quote author=Harvest mouse link=topic=33.msg313#msg313
date=1418054523]
I like this site which has a lot of useful Jewish info on it:
HTML http://theonlinebibleschool.org/courses/141-contents-jewish-roots/241-1-understand-jewish-mind-jewish-roots.html
[/quote]
I opened your link Harvest Mouse and read it thoroughly from top
to bottom.
Initially I was very impressed, assuming it to have been written
by an accredited Rabbi.
But as I read through I began picking up the tell-tale flavour
of an Evangelical denominationalist.
In the end my suspicion was confirmed as Joyce Erickson emerged
as its writer and as president of the denominational body behind
it.
What she says repeatedly throughout the article about man adding
'his' false takes to the 'Word of God' described precisely what
she herself finally did in her summing up.
What a shame, since I would have loved to have read an
accredited Rabbi on the subject.
As it is I would believe Danger Mouse over and above Joyce
Erickson.
Sorry about that, Harvest Mouse.
#Post#: 316--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: Poppy Date: December 8, 2014, 5:54 pm
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I have found some of the things in it to be really interesting.
#Post#: 317--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: Kerry Date: December 8, 2014, 6:22 pm
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[quote author=Harvest mouse link=topic=33.msg316#msg316
date=1418082898]
I have found some of the things in it to be really interesting.
[/quote][quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=33.msg311#msg311
date=1418015935]
That sent me on a mental 'paper chase'; the thought being that
everything we read in the Bible is so deeply entrenched in the
Jewish religion.
For example (am I right in saying this) each of the 13 Apostles
were Jews, and each would have been so totally steeped in the
Jewish scriptures (the Old Testament) that whatever they said or
wrote would be conditioned by their devotion to those
scriptures.[/quote]Hard to say about that. Acts says Peter was
an unlearned man; but he talks (in 2 Peter 3:16) about
"unlearned and unstable" people trying to understand Paul and
the Scriptures.
[quote](Even the apostle to the Gentiles said of himself "If any
other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the
flesh, I more: Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of
Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as
touching the law, a Pharisee; Concerning zeal, persecuting the
church; touching the righteousness which is in the law,
blameless".)[/quote]Yes, and I'd say I follow the Pharisee
positions frequently.
[quote]That set me thinking about Revelation.
Would not a 90 year old man, imprisoned on an Island, with a
cave for solitary shelter, and with only a rock shelf for a bed,
fall into almost mental delusion and hark back to what had
dominated his past life (namely the Jewish scriptures)?
Is that not why most of what was recorded in Revelation so
closely paralleled the prophesies of Daniel and other Old
Testament writings?[/quote]If prophets are seeing the same
things, you would expect them to give similar descriptions; but
you should also expect some differences. If two prophets use
large blocks of language that are exactly the same, something
is probably amiss. Do you remember the story when all the
prophets except one said the exact same thing? They were all
wrong. The language of each prophet is colored by his unique
personality.
On that score, John stands up well. His description of the
cherubim is not the same as Ezekiel's. His description of
receiving a book from the hand of an angel is strikingly
different.
I had read Revelation in my youth and didn't understand any of
it. I knew I didn't. It was decades later when I decide to try
to read it again, after studying other books. My study of the
other books helped a lot. It became clear to me that how John
used symbols was how other prophets had. This in turn shed
light on other books. Take the word "grass." Now of course,
God is not pouring out wrath on grass. To understand that, I
needed to read other passages in the Bible that mention grass.
Man is compared to grass. Also to trees.
If you can believe it, I tell you I think Genesis 1 uses words
the same way John uses them in Revelation. The subjects are
the same. The patterns are almost the same, only slightly
different.
[quote]That then sent me searching the internet along those
lines until I came across
HTML http://www.bibleprobe.com/revelation.htm
OMG Dangerous Mouse (and any others who might be interested)
whatever do you make of
HTML http://www.bibleprobe.com/revelation.htm<br
/>?[/quote]I believe the prophecy of Daniel has already been
fulfilled. If you like, perhaps a thread on that would be in
order? [quote author=Harvest mouse
link=topic=33.msg313#msg313 date=1418054523]
I like this site which has a lot of useful Jewish info on it:
HTML http://theonlinebibleschool.org/courses/141-contents-jewish-roots/241-1-understand-jewish-mind-jewish-roots.html[/quote]
I agreed with much of that but disagreed on a few key points.
I didn't read the other pages; but I am curious if it tells us
that Jesus and the disciples quoted the Talmud here and there?
That's interesting since it wasn't written down yet in final
form. It's also fairly clear to me that Jesus was acquainted
with Rabbi Hillel. Paul even says the Jews have a big
advantage since they have the "oracles" -- meaning something
oral, not something written.
How and why Christianity rejected most of the Oral Tradition of
the Jews might make another interesting thread. I argue that
when they did that, they lost a lot. For example, what does
"paradise" mean when Jesus tells the thief he'd meet him in
Paradise? Jews then would have known exactly what he meant.
Jews today still know; but many Christians think he meant
Heaven. That leaves them confused when later Jesus tells Mary
Magdalene not to touch him since he hadn't visited the Father
yet.
My own assumption is that Jesus was a Jew talking to other Jews.
How they defined words is probably how we should define them.
Paradise means simply garden. Jesus was telling the thief he'd
meet him in Eden.
[quote author=Harvest mouse link=topic=33.msg316#msg316
date=1418082898]
I have found some of the things in it to be really interesting.
[/quote]It does contain some interesting material.
#Post#: 321--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: Ezra Date: December 8, 2014, 10:44 pm
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I trust you will take these comments as edification for all, and
not a personal "attack". We need to be as accurate as possible.
[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=33.msg311#msg311
date=1418015935]
[size=12pt]That sent me on a mental 'paper chase'; the thought
being that everything we read in the Bible is so deeply
entrenched in the Jewish religion.[/quote] "Hebrew Scriptures"
rather than "Jewish religion", bearing in mind that the Jews
were generally attempting to create and maintain their own
righteousness apart from faith.
[quote] For example (am I right in saying this) each of the 13
Apostles were Jews, and each would have been so totally steeped
in the Jewish scriptures (the Old Testament) that whatever they
said or wrote would be conditioned by their devotion to those
scriptures. [/quote]
Since Christ promised 12 thrones to 12 apostles over the 12
tribes of Israel, then just 12 apostles, with Paul definitely a
replacement for the temporary Matthias (Acts 1:26). Scripture
was not dependent on the writers but on the Holy Spirit giving
them the precise words (2 Pet 1:21).
[QUOTE] That set me thinking about Revelation. Would not a 90
year old man, imprisoned on an Island, with a cave for solitary
shelter, and with only a rock shelf for a bed, fall into almost
mental delusion and hark back to what had dominated his past
life (namely the Jewish scriptures)? Is that not why most of
what was recorded in Revelation so closely paralleled the
prophesies of Daniel and other Old Testament writings?[/QUOTE]
If we always remember that ALL SCRIPTURE is given by inspiration
of God, and since Revelation is Scripture, it was not what John
was imagining or desiring to put down, but rather that the Holy
Spirit gave him every word of every verse of Revelation. That
is what we mean by "plenary verbal inspiration".
Back to the topic. Christ descended into Hades (the place of
departed souls and spirits) for 3 days and 3 nights in order to
proclaim His victory over sin, Hell, death, Hades, and Satan.
It is unfortunate that the word "hell" was used in the KJV for
Hades. So the answer to the OP is Christ did indeed go to
Hades, and afterwards brought out all the OT saints from
"Abraham's bosom" and took them to Heaven. They are called "the
spirits of just [justified] men made perfect" (Heb 12:23).
#Post#: 322--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 9, 2014, 2:52 am
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=33.msg317#msg317
date=1418084533]
I believe the prophecy of Daniel has already been fulfilled. If
you like, perhaps a thread on that would be in order?
How and why Christianity rejected most of the Oral Tradition of
the Jews might make another interesting thread.
[/quote]
Personally I'd greatly appreciate threads on both those subjects
even though my limited knowledge might restrict me to 'reading'.
#Post#: 323--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 9, 2014, 3:15 am
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=33.msg321#msg321 date=1418100299]
I trust you will take these comments as edification for all, and
not a personal "attack". We need to be as accurate as possible.
"Hebrew Scriptures" rather than "Jewish religion", bearing in
mind that the Jews were generally attempting to create and
maintain their own righteousness apart from faith.
Since Christ promised 12 thrones to 12 apostles over the 12
tribes of Israel, then just 12 apostles, with Paul definitely a
replacement for the temporary Matthias (Acts 1:26).
[/quote]
I certainly do take your intent to be that of "edification".
However, my reading of Act 1:16-26 tells me that verse 26 does
not put Paul as a replacement for Matthias, who was chosen for
precisely the reason stated "travelled with Jesus during his
ministry and witnessed his resurrection".
In fact I believe that by Paul breaking the mold of Judaism in
becoming the 13th apostle he epitomised the Pentecostal change
over from God's 'Old Covenant' to the 'New'.
No longer would the real 'Israel' be by national birthright,
involving all the Jewish stuff about 12's and 144000's etc., but
thereon would be by a new birthright based upon 'faith' (at
least that's how I see things).
Also I'm at variance with you re "plenary verbal
inspiration"....but it's good to talk about these things.
#Post#: 324--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 9, 2014, 5:57 am
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[quote author=Harvest mouse link=topic=33.msg316#msg316
date=1418082898]
I have found some of the things in it to be really interesting.
[/quote]
Don't get me wrong...so too have I.
So interesting in fact that I have bookmarked it for constant
reference.
It's just that as I read on I kept coming across "Again, as a
repeat, man has never changed. He consistently wants to add or
put his own ideas into what God says is Truth. The human mind is
flawed and error is inescapable. Any source of information,
other than what comes from God, can always be traced back to the
mind of man, and the mind of man is filled with flaws, errors,
and imperfections. God’s Word, and only God’s Word contains
Truth – the only Truth!".
Only to find, at the end, (and in particular in Part II) the
writer (Joyce Erickson) was just another Evangelical 'Only we
have seen the light' Denominationalist, doing exactly what she
had been complaining about (in blue above).
#Post#: 325--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: Kerry Date: December 9, 2014, 6:11 am
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=33.msg321#msg321
date=1418100299]Scripture was not dependent on the writers but
on the Holy Spirit giving them the precise words (2 Pet
1:21).[/quote]
I wonder why Luke consulted eyewitnesses.
Luke 1:1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in
order a declaration of those things which are most surely
believed among us,
2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning
were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;
I also wonder what Pilate really wrote. If the Holy Spirit
inspired these things word for word, why are they all different?
Matthew 27:37 And set up over his head his accusation written,
This Is Jesus The King Of The Jews.
Mark 15:26 And the superscription of his accusation was written
over, The King Of The Jews.
Luke 23:38 And a superscription also was written over him in
letters of Greek, and Latin, and Hebrew, This Is The King Of The
Jews.
John 19:19 And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross.
And the writing was Jesus Of Nazareth The King Of The Jews.
#Post#: 332--------------------------------------------------
Re: Did Christ go to Hell ?
By: Ezra Date: December 9, 2014, 11:10 am
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=33.msg323#msg323
date=1418116514]
[size=12pt]
No longer would the real 'Israel' be by national birthright,
involving all the Jewish stuff about 12's and 144000's etc., but
thereon would be by a new birthright based upon 'faith' (at
least that's how I see things).[/quote]
You might want to do a thorough study of of ALL the OT
prophecies before concluding that "all the Jewish stuff" is
obsolete. Christ will redeem and restore Israel on earth after
His Second Coming. You seem to forget that it was Christ
Himself who promised those 12 thrones to His 12 apostles, and
Jesus Christ is the Truth.
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