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#Post#: 2857--------------------------------------------------
Mountains
By: Kerry Date: August 11, 2015, 6:43 pm
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When the Bible talks about mountains or hills, sometimes it
means physical ones, but sometimes it means something spiritul.
Psalm 48:1 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised in the
city of our God, in the mountain of his holiness.
Psalm 3:4 I cried unto the Lord with my voice, and he heard me
out of his holy hill. Selah.
Psalm 15:1 Lord, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall
dwell in thy holy hill?
Psalm 24:3 Who shall ascend into the hill of the Lord? or who
shall stand in his holy place?
Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the
mountain of the Lord's house shall be established in the top of
the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all
nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to
the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob; and
he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for
out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the Lord
from Jerusalem.
Isaiah 57:13 When thou criest, let thy companies deliver thee;
but the wind shall carry them all away; vanity shall take them:
but he that putteth his trust in me shall possess the land, and
shall inherit my holy mountain;
Micah 4:1 But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the
mountain of the house of the Lord shall be established in the
top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills;
and people shall flow unto it.
Before the physical earth itself was fashioned, we should
believe that spiritual hills and mountains emerged out of the
waters. This was an express of God's Will in Heaven, and the
prayer is His Will should be done on the earth also. There are
connections between Heaven and earth; and these can be described
as pillars. Now let us take up the story of the
Transfiguration.
Mark 9:1 9 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That
there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of
death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and
John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by
themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as
no fuller on earth can white them.
4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were
talking with Jesus.
5 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for
us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee,
and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
6 For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid.
7 And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came
out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him.
8 And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no
man any more, save Jesus only with themselves.
Was this a physical or spiritual mountain? Perhaps there was a
physical one; but I also believe they went up a spiritual
mountain. Could Peter, James and John go up on their own? No,
but Jesus could and he could also take others with him.
We read that they observed Jesus was transfigured; and I assert
that these three were also changed by this experience. The
mantle of Jesus fell upon Peter, the mantle of Moses on James
and the mantle of Elijah on John. These three became the three
pillars. Paul calls them that, saying they appeared as pillars
-- when viewing them spiritually, they had the appearance of
pillars.
Galatians 2:9 And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be
pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave
to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should
go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
Why then are the basiicas at Rome those of Peter, John and Paul?
James was the pillar or Apostle of severity or the lawgiver of
the Jewish type. Paul was the Apostle of the new type of law
given to the Gentiles. In my mind then, the Church at Rome is
built first on the Kingdom pillar of which Peter is the Apostle
but flanked also by two pillars supporting Peter, John and
Paul.
I will now connect Peter to the Temptation of Jesus in the
wilderness.
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding
high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world,
and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou
wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is
written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt
thou serve.
We see that this was a spiritual mountain since all the
kingdoms of the world could be seen from it. We also learn that
the Devil has his own mountains which he has summoned from the
waters. This story is not about the physical body of Jesus
floating above the Temple. It may not even be about fasting
physically for forty days for all I know. The first three
Gospels have the account that tells us about spiritual events;
but John tells us what was happening spiritually.
John tells us Jesus took two of John the Baptist's disciples
with him following his baptism.
John 1:37 And the two disciples heard him speak, and they
followed Jesus.
38 Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto
them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say,
being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
39 He saith unto them, Come and see. They came and saw where he
dwelt, and abode with him that day: for it was about the tenth
hour.
40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was
Andrew, Simon Peter's brother.
41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him,
We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the
Christ.
42 And he brought him to Jesus. And when Jesus beheld him, he
said, Thou art Simon the son of Jona: thou shalt be called
Cephas, which is by interpretation, A stone.
Jesus predicts that Simon will become the stone. Connect this
with dry land emerging from the waters. Jesus is evoking dry
land by speaking so just as God spoke in Genesis and dry land
appeared.
Then we find them at Cana only a few days later!
2:1 And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee;
and the mother of Jesus was there:
2 And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.
Note now that "ben" in Hebrew signifies both "stone" and "son."
We can see Jesus emerging from the waters of baptism as the Son
of God or ben Elohim; but can we also see his intention to to
build pillars and have Peter become an important stone?
We are not told that Peter or any of the others were caught up
during the Temptation; and I don't think they were. They
weren't ready; but Jesus was already taking on the Dark Forces
that held sway over the world and to a degree over Peter. I can
see Jesus walking along on the road to Cana with Peter at his
side, perhaps engaging in conversation while simultaneously
being tempted by Satan spiritually.
Before taking up any passages from the Old Testament, let's look
at the Sermon on the Mount. Jesus left the multitudes and took
only his disciples with him. The context is important since he
was not saying these things to everyone.
Matthew 5:1 And seeing the multitudes, he went up into a
mountain: and when he was set, his disciples came unto him:
Was this a physical mountain? I think there probably was a
physical mountain; but I also think he took his disciples up to
a spiritual height too.
#Post#: 2858--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Kerry Date: August 11, 2015, 10:18 pm
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Hebrews 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into
a place which he should after receive for an inheritance,
obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange
country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs
with him of the same promise:
10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose
builder and maker is God.
What did Abraham get to see? Well, he saw Mount Moriah for one
thing.
Genesis 22:3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and
saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and
Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and
rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the
place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the
ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come
again to you.
It's said that the two men with him and Isaac were Eliezer his
faithful servant and Ishmael. They formed a party of four, but
two of them were told not accompany past this point when
Abraham saw "the place afar off."
Then he hears the voice of an angel and also sees the ram.
Surely this was the Lamb of God from the Holy City.
Physically they were probably on the Temple Mount where Solomon
built the Temple; but I believe they also ascended to Heaven.
Abraham did and could take Isaac with him; and Isaac was
blessed.
17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will
multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand
which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate
of his enemies;
18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be
blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
#Post#: 2859--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Kerry Date: August 11, 2015, 11:19 pm
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Jewish tradition says this is accurate, just as written:
Deuteronomy 4:11 And ye came near and stood under the mountain;
and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with
darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
Yes, Israel was "under" the mountain. Now surely they were not
under the physical Mount Sinai; but they were under a spiritual
mountain. It is said Moses went up to Heaven to talk with God
and came back with the Torah.
Exodus 24:And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou,
and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of
Israel; and worship ye afar off.
2 And Moses alone shall come near the Lord: but they shall not
come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.
Seventy were allowed part of the way up the mountain. This was
when they had their vision. But we also learn that Joshua was
allowed even further up.
13 And Moses rose up, and his minister Joshua: and Moses went up
into the mount of God.
The other people were further down; and physically, they were
beside the mountain; but they were under a spiritual mountain.
As you know, Joshua who went further up the mountain with Moses
than the others was his successor.
#Post#: 2867--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Kerry Date: August 13, 2015, 5:31 pm
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Jonah contains another example of this strange use of the word
"mountain" but there it is in the plural. Jonah says he went
down to the bottom of the mountains. This was when he was
swallowed by a large fish.
Jonah 2:1 Then Jonah prayed unto the Lord his God out of the
fish's belly,
2 And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the Lord,
and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou
heardest my voice.
3 For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the
seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy
waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again
toward thy holy temple.
5 The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth
closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with
her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life
from corruption, O Lord my God.
He was in hell -- sheol. The large fish is Leviathan, the beast
of the sea, that while in the sea still seeks to emerge from it
and take on form in the physical world.
We might call Jonah lucky since he remembered God. Many souls,
detached from their dead bodies, cannot. What they experience
can be compared to nightmares. Almost anything is possible; and
if the soul cannot remember God to call out to Him, he can be
trapped there by "death".
Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the
grave who shall give thee thanks?
This was not so with Jonah. He was not trapped by death, and he
could remember about being grateful to God.
Jonah 2:7 When my soul fainted within me I remembered the Lord:
and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8 They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the Lord.
If we grasp that mountains in the Old Testament can be either
holy mountains or counterfeit mountains being formed by the Dark
Side, then perhaps we are in a better position to understand
what John wrote. Does the woman sit on the waters or on beast
of the waters or on seven mountains?
Revelation 17:And there came one of the seven angels which had
the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come
hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore
that sitteth upon many waters:
. . .
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I
saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of
blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
. . .
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are
seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
I'd say all three statements are right. How you see it
depends on your perspective. None of this means seven mountains
or hills in the physical sense. A woman can't sit on seven
mountains; and a woman can't sit on "many waters" while sitting
on seven mountains. Spiritually however, it is possible.
It is somewhat ironic that Leviathan, the serpent of the sea,
is not shown as mastering the fallen woman; rather she is
depicted as sitting on the beast -- showing the feminine
principle out of its proper role and exercising "authority" over
the beast. This is the same principle we see in Eve after she
had fallen. The fallen feminine principle brings forth
offspring with defects. We can also see how Adam erred when
he blamed Eve for his own fall. He didn't have to obey her, to
accept her words as his spiritual authority.
It may be worth the time to discuss what being carried away in
the spirit means. IAny person who is carried thus adopts a
feminine role below to Heaven's masculine above. The physical
sex of the person doesn't matter in such affairs. Whatever is
above can be called masculine as Jesus is called the Head or
Bridegroom and what is below can be called feminine as the
church is called the Bride. The person who is "below" and who
tries to rise into the Third Heaven on his own is a thief of
one sort or another.
John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not
by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way,
the same is a thief and a robber.
Such a person still retains something of the nature of the seed
of the serpent about him; and he should abandon such efforts.
Even if he could "ride the beast" up into Heaven, it's temporary
at best. He would not last long. The way to rise up into
Heaven is to adopt the passive role of the Woman, willing to
hear and to obey. Become like sheep, going wherever the
Shepherd directs.
#Post#: 2870--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Oneoff Date: August 14, 2015, 1:28 am
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The most extravagant use of the word 'Mountain' surely cannot
have been intended to be taken literally "verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto
this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall
remove".
But what do we make of the additional bit "and nothing shall be
impossible unto you"?
#Post#: 2873--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Kerry Date: August 14, 2015, 6:02 am
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[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=325.msg2870#msg2870
date=1439533693]
The most extravagant use of the word 'Mountain' surely cannot
have been intended to be taken literally "verily I say unto you,
If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto
this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall
remove".
But what do we make of the additional bit "and nothing shall be
impossible unto you"?
[/quote]I had been thinking of this verse but forgot to talk
about it. Thanks for bringing it up.
I've often wondered which mountain Jesus meant when he said,
"this mountain." I've also wondered if there is a connection
between the grain of mustard seed mentioned here and in the
parable. I rather think there is.
What mountain? I suppose the mountain they had just come down
from. Now if their physical bodies had gone up a physical
mountain but spiritually they had gone up a spiritual mountain,
again which is it? I think both.
A spiritual mountain is far more easily moved. We know how
easily things change and move in dreams. In the spiritual
planes, things can move just as fast and even faster.
However, it takes time for the physical world to catch up. It
would also be evil to move a physical mountain too quickly.
People may live there. They expect it to be there. They have
"faith" in it being there too; and the vast amount of "faith" of
people believing it will continue to be there keeps it there.
Yes, I am saying that very often what is true depends on what we
believe.
Strangely enough, I have a personal experience about this. I
saw a whole chunk of Africa sinking into the ocean -- the part
known as the Horn of Africa. I also knew it would be better if
it did and that I should continue to visualize it falling into
the ocean and praying for it. Spiritually I believe more than
one mountain has already been moved and cast into the ocean; but
I don't expect to see it true spiritually in my lifetime. I am
not surprised when I see earthquakes there. I check from time
to time on the earthquake activity. They've had nine so far
this year. Eventually what is below will match what is above.
HTML http://earthquaketrack.com/p/somalia/recent
Note please that I am not praying for large earthquakes that
create lots of damage. While I want that area to sink into the
sea physically, I want it to happen with the least amount of
problems possible.
Now for the seed of mustard. This relates also to making
bread out of rocks in a way. In Genesis we see a progression:
Water > Earth > Plants > Animals > Man.
The principle of vegetative life is wonderful indeed. A seed
has within itself the ability to respond to "light" and "water"
and "air" and then interact with the "dead" earth transforming
it into life. Plants can convert dirt -- which have bits of
rocks -- into something living.
In the parable, the small seed of mustard needs four things.
It grows first as a small plant, and then eventually into what
can be called a tree that reaches into Heaven itself. When
Jesus said the birds seek refuge in its branches, he meant the
angels commune with it and rest in it -- and he did not say it,
but they also fly about doing things.
Here we see "dead earth" being converted into life and rising
upwards, higher and higher by stages. And the whole tree is
produced by that little seed that can do more than move
mountains, it can change dead earth of mountains into life.
This takes patience, of course. There are rules which should
be followed. And if you want to make bread out of stones, there
is a way of doing that too. A lawful way -- Stones or earth >
Wheat > Bread. When Satan tempted Jesus, Jesus had just
emerged from the waters of baptism as Ben Elohim (Son of God)
-- and "ben" can also mean "stone" of course. The joke was on
Satan in a way since Jesus was preparing to make bread out of
stones -- but the lawful way, by growing the wheat, having it
harvested and ground into flour.
There is another joke of sorts here:
Luke 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance, and
begin not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our
father: for I say unto you, That God is able of these stones to
raise up children unto Abraham.
Why a joke? Well, aren't we made physically out of bits of
rocks? Isn't God doing this all the time then? There is more
to it than the numbers when God told Abraham his seed would as
numerous as the sand. That too is an indication of the
smallness of the seeds God begins with; and when Abraham is told
his seed would be as numerous as the stars, that indicates their
final state.
Daniel 12:3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness
of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as
the stars for ever and ever.
Matthew 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in
the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him
hear.
#Post#: 2874--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Oneoff Date: August 14, 2015, 6:45 am
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Another question from me would be to ask, "regardless of whether
the mountain to be moved were material/literal or spiritual,
what if two people of adequate faith each wanted the same
mountain to be moved differently one from the other?"
#Post#: 2890--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Kerry Date: August 15, 2015, 9:51 pm
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[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=325.msg2874#msg2874
date=1439552740]
Another question from me would be to ask, "regardless of whether
the mountain to be moved were material/literal or spiritual,
what if two people of adequate faith each wanted the same
mountain to be moved differently one from the other?"
[/quote]Could both be guided by Love for others if they
disagreed? Could both have access to the Spirit which is to
inform us?
I disagree with both Catholics and Protestants on this passage
since both neglect the context.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and
he will shew you things to come.
The context is clear enough, isn't it? The Spirit is supposed
to reveal things to come to us. The Spirit goes forth, sees
and hears things, and analyzes them. Then the Spirit of Truth
should show people how to pray, what the intentions of Heaven
are, etc. This is not about doctrine. It is about how
Heaven adapts itself to men's actions the way the Spirit told
Samuel it was okay for Israel to have a king. If the people
wanted a king, Heaven could adapt itself to that.
Protestants want to make this passage about interpreting the
Bible. They also strip the "you" out of it when the "you" in
the phrase meant the Apostles. It is not clear at all that
this verse applies to others. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't;
but it is about having the future revealed to people so they
know what to do.
The Catholics say it's to the Apostles alone, and somehow this
"all truth" was doctrine given to them and transmitted through
their successors; but you can see they are also ignoring the
context.
This craving to understand the things of Heaven and to able to
make pronouncements on obscure doctrines and doubtful teachings
usually has pride behind it. We must climb the mountain if we
want to be at the top. We live in the earthly world and I
believe we should believe God was wise to put us here and we are
meant to learn something from it -- not pretend it doesn't exist
but seek solace in fantasying the Heavenly things and thinking
we understand them. We should be willing to be faithful in
the small things. Did you read my thread "Things to Do" yet?
It gave me joy when I realized the Spirit was revealing to me
that I could pick those plastic bottles up and make the world a
little bit better. It was prompting me to obey the Golden
Rule.
Was it a small thing? Perhaps, but only if we are faithful in
the smaller things will God trust us with larger things. Only
if we are faithful in earthly things when the Spirit guides us
in those can we expect to rise to understand the Heavenly.
If two people are both guided by the Spirit, they could not
possibly disagree if the mountain should be moved or where it
should go. When two people disagree, at least one and maybe
both are missing the mark. Someone is not operating out of
Love.
Korah and his crowd disagreed with Moses. Korah was guided by
self-interest while Moses was guided by Love. The wishes of
some people, even when they devote themselves to praying about
them, can be more of a curse than a blessing -- bringing down
destruction on themselves. In less severe cases, Heaven merely
shuts itself to their prayers lest their wicked prayers bring
down destruction on themselves as well as others.
No, God does not hear every prayer. Some are too wicked to be
heard. Were God to hear them, He might have to judge the
people. Out of Divine Mercy then, it is better for Him not to
hear.
#Post#: 2906--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Amadeus Date: August 16, 2015, 4:07 pm
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[quote author=Oneoff link=topic=325.msg2874#msg2874
date=1439552740]
Another question from me would be to ask, "regardless of whether
the mountain to be moved were material/literal or spiritual,
what if two people of adequate faith each wanted the same
mountain to be moved differently one from the other?"
[/quote]
"Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I
will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly
in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-30
What is a "yoke" anyway and what is its purpose? Off the top of
my head it is a device used to balance and coordinate the
efforts of two or more animals to accomplish something that only
one could not do or could not do as well.
Similarly consider this verse:
"For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there
am I in the midst of them." Matt 18:20
This doesn't mean that the power of God will necessarily be
absent when only one person is "in my name" as the verse says,
but there is added strength when more than one work together to
accomplish a task... in this case a task done "in his name".
"Two are better than one; because they have a good reward for
their labour.
For if they fall, the one will lift up his fellow: but woe to
him that is alone when he falleth; for he hath not another to
help him up.
Again, if two lie together, then they have heat: but how can one
be warm alone?
And if one prevail against him, two shall withstand him; and a
threefold cord is not quickly broken." Ecc 4:9-12
#Post#: 3168--------------------------------------------------
Re: Mountains
By: Colin Feener Date: November 1, 2015, 9:06 pm
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Kerry , righteousness is as a mountain and the righteousness
and truth of the bible is God's mountain. Every man has his own
mountain , mosses had his and the prophets and all great men of
God , it means the righteousness they have obtained from their
understanding of the scriptures. They used literal mountains to
liken the person taught about as that persons mountain. When
the disciples asked Jesus where he dwelt he said on the mountain
and asked them to follow him there. If a man has been teaching
what he considers as righteousness and you have faith from God
your righteousness is above that mans and that mountain of his
will be moves are shaken because that same understanding he has
is his foundation he has built his church or life upon. You move
mountains with faith in God because faith is the receiving of
knowledge from above and God.
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