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#Post#: 2900--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: CatholicCrusader
Date: August 16, 2015, 11:21 am
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.
Nice, short blog entry by Jimmy Akin:
Is Baptism Really Necessary?
LINK:
HTML http://www.catholic.com/blog/jimmy-akin/is-baptism-really-necessary
It has this nice quote from Martin Luther (you guys know him):
“Baptism is no human plaything but is instituted by God himself.
Moreover, it is solemnly and strictly commanded that we must be
baptized or we shall not be saved. We are not to regard it as an
indifferent matter, then, like putting on a new red coat. It is
of the greatest importance that we regard baptism as excellent,
glorious, and exalted” (Large Catechism 4:6).
#Post#: 2907--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: August 16, 2015, 4:29 pm
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--- Quote from: Oneoff link ---
>
> But it was not until centuries after 'Christ' that Constantine
(and his successors) appointed committees (inclusive of some
decidedly non apostolic men) and such a determination was
formulated, and apostolic writings (such as those that described
the basis on which Judas was to be replaced) got embodied into
the committees' dictate that 'their' Christianity should be Text
Book controlled by a new 'Bible', to complement the scriptures
that had dictated Judaism prior to the recorded 'Glorification
of Christ'.
--- End Quote ---
So then if God is omnipotent could He not foresee and even plan
all of the eventualities of men dipping their hands into the
things of God?
--- Quote ---
> I incline to the view that if God had intended Christianity to
be dictated by a new Text Book he would have gone about the task
much earlier, with greater clarity than it's 8000 word
ambiguity, without loss of its original manuscripts, etc.
--- End Quote ---
And who is then that knows the mind and plan of God so well as
this? God created every person, both the feebled minded and the
brilliant, and the mature (both as men see mature and as God see
mature) and the child. You presume that Almighty God would have
moved along in His plan in accord with the way you see it, and
that He seemingly has had no control or understanding of what
those within and part of His creation would do. He did mention
this:
"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways
higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Isaiah 55:9
As to the Bible being ambiguous, perhaps it is purposely for
those who don't wish to pursue its understand in the manner
which He would have prescribed:
"He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to
know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is
not given.
For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have
more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken
away even that he hath.
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see
not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand."
Matt 13:11-13
If Jesus is really the Word of God made flesh, is it not Jesus
who speaks to them in parables? Is it not throughout all of the
scriptures of Jesus consists that a parable is seen? So how does
a person understand the parable or the parables that are
written?
"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull
of hearing, and their EYES they have closed; lest at any time
they should see with their EYES and hear with their ears, and
should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and
I should heal them." Matt 13:15
So how are a person's ears cleared and his eyes opened? It
doesn't happen just to satisfy idle curiosity or the need of any
purpose outside of God's purpose. So I believe.
--- Quote ---
> I read the Bible but, in doing so, I regard it as being what
it actually is, rather that as the idolatrous object that 4th
Century Church turned it into.
>
--- End Quote ---
And so you block, as I see it, any hope of uncovering what God
really wants you to uncover.
#Post#: 2910--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: August 17, 2015, 2:07 am
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--- Quote from: Amadeus link ---
>
> So then if God is omnipotent could He not foresee and even
plan all of the eventualities of men dipping their hands into
the things of God?
>
>
>
> And so you block, as I see it, any hope of uncovering what God
really wants you to uncover.
>
--- End Quote ---
Dear John,
I am fully appreciative of your efforts (plus those of everyone
else) to 'straighten me out'.
I just ask you all to give cognisance to the fact that I didn't
formulate my 'inclinations' first and then 'turn against' the
various denominations and 'theories' of Christendom.
It was other way round for me, so what needs to be addressed is
the 'Christendom' that caused my inclinations rather than the
inclinations themselves.
I simply cannot empathise with any of the denominations that I
find around me, and that is because I see so little genuine
evidence of 'effective outworking of faith' amongst the members
of those denominations.
So much so that I can only conclude that somewhere along the
line 'things went sadly awry'.
And from the bible I find a strong pointer in Matthew 13, where
it seems clear to me that the message foretells that the
Christian 'faith' will have to ‘fight against the odds’ and
suffer a ‘great falling away’, set out in more specific detail
in verses 31-32.
IMO the Catholic/Orthodox denomination reflects the growth of
the mustard seed into the great and powerful tree that, as I see
it, was out of kilter with "the faith first delivered to the
saints" in deciding to revert 'Faith’ back into Judaistic
'Religion', by reintroducing Text Book reliance.
And thereafter the denominational explosion of the Protestant
Reformation seems to me to reflect the subsequent "nesting of
the birds of the air within the branches of the great tree".
In what way was it "within the branches"?.....in as much as the
Protestant Reformers retained the great tree's error of
'Bibliolatry' and expanded that error even further by their
claim of 'sola scriptura'.
That, to me, is the falling away foretold in Matthew 13 that I
see laid out before me, and that has given rise to my surmised
inclinations.
I'm sorry that my inclinations hit at the faith of virtually
every one of those who I would wish to claim as being 'Christian
friends', but what else can I say except that surely I ought to
be allowed as much right to my inclined understanding of Matthew
13 as anyone else in this collection of various 'Religious
Convictions'.
Matthew 13 is but one example of the apostolic writings that I
do in fact 'take to heart' simply because of its plausibility
(plausibility being my criteria regarding what, from those
writings, to 'take to heart', although I accept that others with
take different parts of those writings to challenge my reliance
on ‘plausibility’).
#Post#: 2916--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: August 17, 2015, 4:18 pm
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Tomorrow I shall be busy packing to go to France for my
granddaughter’s wedding, so those suffering from Oneoffitis can
look forward to a week’s respite.
But one last post before I shut down.
And I elect to return to the essence of the topic’s heading
‘Born Again’.
I suggest that, cherry picking from the bible, a very plausible
case exists for claiming that Jesus principal purpose during his
earthly ministry was to correct the Jews’ misapprehension that
‘the Kingdom’ was their birthright and was all about the
restoration to them of Jerusalem.
Matthew 5 is very much about that not being the case, and
Matthew 11:11-15 points to the ‘Kingdom’ not being made fully
realisable until after Jesus had finally been ‘taken
up’/glorified.
(John the Baptist not experiencing that full realisation; having
died prior to Jesus’ glorification.)
I suggest that it is for that reason that the gospels are almost
solely the source of the teaching that the Jews had to be ‘born
anew’ if they were to experience the real Kingdom of Heaven, and
that the rest of the apostolic writings (dealing mainly with
Pentecost onwards) barely hint at it.
In fact Roman 9 gets closest to it when Paul suggests they were
not all Israelites who were born so ‘of the flesh’, but the true
Israelites were those who were born so ‘of the spirit and
faith’.
Aside from Paul’s one off, road to Damascus, experience I think
too much has been made of ‘born again’ being a distinct,
momentary, turning around, experience, and I just see countless
contradictions of it really having taken effect in the lives of
so many that claim it.
Take the propensity of mankind to ‘grow horns’ and resort to
‘road rage’ once behind the wheel of their cars. Do ‘born
againers’ display fruits of the spirit and refrain from ‘road
rage’?
One of the most despicable instances of road rage that I have
recently witnessed came from a driver with a ‘Christian fish’
emblem on the back of his car (I later found him to be a leading
born againer from a local charismatic Baptist church).
It would take more than the rare instance of genuine ‘change’ to
convince me that ‘born again’ actually exists as a present day,
living experience.
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