DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2871--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: August 14, 2015, 1:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[center]O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to eternal life.[/center]
#Post#: 2879--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Deborah
Date: August 14, 2015, 2:15 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Oneoff link ---
>
> I have needed to troll back through several posts to get to
the subject matter of the thread title in order to contribute my
'two cents'.
> I have had plenty of experience of claims to having been 'born
again' (i used to fudge my own claim to such an experience as
having happened when, as a very small child, I used to 'parrot
out' a Sunday School teacher's prayer that we should "open the
door of our hearts and let Jesus in").
> However I have no experience of anyone being sufficiently
changed to warrant the claim (including myself).
> My 'inclination' is towards the hope of another 'life' after
death, with 'Born Again' being the transition.
>
--- End Quote ---
It all depends on how big a change you expect to see at the
outset. Birth is only the beginning: a newborn baby can't do
much, and it has a lot of growing and developing to do. It's the
same with spiritual birth; the Spirit's work in us has only just
begun, and for most of us the process of change is long and
gradual.
But there are many people who can point to a definite time when
the process began. Including me. But in my case it was nothing
to so with saying a prayer (because I didn't know a prayer to
say).
#Post#: 2882--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: August 14, 2015, 2:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
If human procreation is to be taken as a model for a spiritual
rebirth (which I don't) then the beliefs of Herbert W Armstrong
would be worthy of consideration.
His followers hold that a believer's mortal life finds a
parallel in what we call gestation, and that the actual birth
takes place at his resurrection.
They believe that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom",
and neither does the believer, until he finally takes on
immortality.
#Post#: 2883--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Kerry
Date: August 14, 2015, 5:19 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Oneoff link ---
>
> If human procreation is to be taken as a model for a spiritual
rebirth (which I don't) then the beliefs of Herbert W Armstrong
would be worthy of consideration.
> His followers hold that a believer's mortal life finds a
parallel in what we call gestation, and that the actual birth
takes place at his resurrection.
> They believe that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom", and neither does the believer, until he finally takes
on immortality.
>
--- End Quote ---
I can almost agree with that; but their belief, if I remember
correctly, is that no one can take on immortality unless the
physical body dies first. There are several Scriptures which
indicate otherwise; so would say Armstrong cherry-picked his
verses.
While it is true that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom," does that mean the flesh cannot be saved somehow?
Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there
should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened.
The flesh can be saved and is to one extent or another; but it
does enter not the kingdom as "terrestrial flesh." It is
changed daily, I think. If someone is not changing the old
into the new, well let Paul speak on the matter:
1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but
he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
#Post#: 2884--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: August 14, 2015, 8:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> I can almost agree with that; but their belief, if I remember
correctly, is that no one can take on immortality unless the
physical body dies first. There are several Scriptures which
indicate otherwise; so would say Armstrong cherry-picked his
verses.
>
> While it is true that "flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom," does that mean the flesh cannot be saved somehow?
>
> Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there
should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days
shall be shortened.
>
> The flesh can be saved and is to one extent or another; but it
does enter not the kingdom as "terrestrial flesh." It is
changed daily, I think. If someone is not changing the old
into the new, well let Paul speak on the matter:
>
> 1 Corinthians 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built
thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
> 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss:
but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
>
--- End Quote ---
I am in no position to undermine anyone's beliefs, but my
experience is that almost all of the many differing Christian
beliefs are based upon "cherry picked" scriptures since it seems
to be possible to both undermine or underpin almost any belief
by such reliance.
That is one of the factors that has driven me so close to
'Deism'.
My own inclinations ('beliefs' is almost too strong a word) are
based on what I consider to be plausibility and, whilst some are
based on "cherry picked" scriptures, many are not. (Therein lays
the basis of 'Oneoffism').
#Post#: 2885--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: bradley
Date: August 15, 2015, 8:36 am
---------------------------------------------------------
The Spirit of God has moved and still continues to move to
inspire people to write things to bring joy, warnings, spiritual
teachings, etc. Anyone with the Spirit of God inside them, the
Kingdom of God within, can communicate with the Holy Spirit to
find other spiritual words all over our world not found in
accepted scripture. Mind you, many take their own leanings and
eagerness for their own desires as the joy to be found in the
writings and speakings of the Holy Spirit from others and
themselves and take their own path far off the true path, and
say they were led there by the Holy Spirit when it was their own
desires. You can keep this from happening by comparing all you
perceive to be words of the Holy Spirit to the accepted words
found in the canon. If they dont disagree, then they probably
are from the Holy Spirit. Simple as that to me. I find the
Shepard of Hermes to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, although
certainly not for doctrine. Its like a parable. That is the
msg of the Shepard of Hermes.
#Post#: 2889--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Kerry
Date: August 15, 2015, 9:21 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: bradley link ---
>
> The Spirit of God has moved and still continues to move to
inspire people to write things to bring joy, warnings, spiritual
teachings, etc. Anyone with the Spirit of God inside them, the
Kingdom of God within, can communicate with the Holy Spirit to
find other spiritual words all over our world not found in
accepted scripture. Mind you, many take their own leanings and
eagerness for their own desires as the joy to be found in the
writings and speakings of the Holy Spirit from others and
themselves and take their own path far off the true path, and
say they were led there by the Holy Spirit when it was their own
desires. You can keep this from happening by comparing all you
perceive to be words of the Holy Spirit to the accepted words
found in the canon. If they dont disagree, then they probably
are from the Holy Spirit. Simple as that to me. I find the
Shepard of Hermes to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, although
certainly not for doctrine. Its like a parable. That is the
msg of the Shepard of Hermes.
>
--- End Quote ---
I never read it all the way through. Maybe some day I should.
While I'm still uncertain about the Shepherd, I tend to agree
with you; I also believe in continuing revelation.
If a group of people (say Bishops) can be guided by God to
determine previous books were inspired by God, why couldn't they
be able to say if new books are?
#Post#: 2892--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: bradley
Date: August 16, 2015, 12:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
^I think its because people really dont believe in the power of
the Holy Spirit like they used to in the first century. Just
look at all the christians looking to the early christians and
going Oooo! and Aaaahh! Its like they are looking at Hero's
above and beyond their every dream or desire. They were simply
open to the work of the Holy Spirit and the faith and courage to
exercise that faith. Jesus Himself said that others past him
would do greater works than He did, yet no one even thinks they
can be as faithful as Barnabas or Matthew. They put them up on
a mantle as if its something they can only dream of. Then
again there are others that are afraid of learning to learn from
the Holy Spirit, for their are other spirits out there trying to
convince us THEY are the Holy Spirit and have taken many from
the ranks of faithful christians, they feel its safer to just
trust in words on paper, the accepted canon from either the RCC,
Orthodox, or protestant, and ignore the rest for fear of being
lead wrongly. It is safer, but we are not called to be safe,
but to increase in the faith, and leading of the Holy Spirit.
A right christian attitude is to not be afraid to trust in the
Holy Spirit, and its NOT the words in a book like many say.
Accepted canon IS words of the Holy Spirit, but to say that
nothing short of that accepted scripture is inspired is foolish,
or to think those words are the only words the Holy Spirit can
speak, as if It is dead and not able to be alive to speak to us
today is nothing short of fear mongering. There were 2 books I
read that I believe were inspired, a few years ago, one of them
was the Sheppard of Hermes, and the other I cant remember the
title, and sometimes I get the 2 mixed up as to the context, but
I considered them both inspired. Was the Sheppard of Hermes
about someone building a tower out of stone and the stones being
the elect? That was one of the 2.
#Post#: 2895--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Deborah
Date: August 16, 2015, 3:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
As I understand it, the question is not whether a book is/was
'inspired' or not, but whether it was written by an apostle
appointed by Jesus or someone under the immediate oversight of
such an apostle (such as Luke or Mark). Authentic apostolic
books were eligible for inclusion in the canon, anything else
(however good or valuable) was not. Some books were disputed for
a time because of this criterion. So a canonical book had to be
written during the first century; once all the apostles had
died, there could be no more.
Of course the Holy Spirit is still active, and there are many
very good books written by Christians since (one thinks of The
Pilgrims Progress, or C S Lewis' works, for some more modern
examples). They are recommended reading, but we don't regard
them as Holy Scripture.
This is because we need to distinguish between the foundation
and the rest of the building. The apostles laid the foundation;
succeeding generations build on top (I Corinthians 3:10-15).
#Post#: 2896--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
DIR By: Oneoff
Date: August 16, 2015, 4:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Deborah link ---
>
> As I understand it, the question is not whether a book is/was
'inspired' or not, but whether it was written by an apostle
appointed by Jesus or someone under the immediate oversight of
such an apostle (such as Luke or Mark). Authentic apostolic
books were eligible for inclusion in the canon, anything else
(however good or valuable) was not. Some books were disputed for
a time because of this criterion. So a canonical book had to be
written during the first century; once all the apostles had
died, there could be no more.
>
> Of course the Holy Spirit is still active, and there are many
very good books written by Christians since (one thinks of The
Pilgrims Progress, or C S Lewis' works, for some more modern
examples). They are recommended reading, but we don't regard
them as Holy Scripture.
>
> This is because we need to distinguish between the foundation
and the rest of the building. The apostles laid the foundation;
succeeding generations build on top (I Corinthians 3:10-15).
>
--- End Quote ---
But it was not until centuries after 'Christ' that Constantine
(and his successors) appointed committees (inclusive of some
decidedly non apostolic men) and such a determination was
formulated, and apostolic writings (such as those that described
the basis on which Judas was to be replaced) got embodied into
the committees' dictate that 'their' Christianity should be Text
Book controlled by a new 'Bible', to complement the scriptures
that had dictated Judaism prior to the recorded 'Glorification
of Christ'.
I incline to the view that if God had intended Christianity to
be dictated by a new Text Book he would have gone about the task
much earlier, with greater clarity than it's 8000 word
ambiguity, without loss of its original manuscripts, etc.
I read the Bible but, in doing so, I regard it as being what it
actually is, rather that as the idolatrous object that 4th
Century Church turned it into.
*****************************************************
Page 5 of 6
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page