DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2798--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 5, 2015, 6:52 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]^ Yeah, I let that one pass . . . :D. I knew
what you meant, but the editor in me wanted to tickle you.
;D[/font]
#Post#: 2801--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 5, 2015, 7:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]^Talk about an amphiboly . . . :-[
O My . . .
I'd best go now.
You can never be too careful with the written word. Let that be
a lesson to . . . me.
Bad, so very baaadd. ::) ;D[/font]
#Post#: 2809--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 6, 2015, 6:27 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=317.msg2795#msg2795
date=1438817483]
...........I had forgotten that Augustine's mother is considered
a saint. Did she write anything?[/quote]
Oh, no. But then again, most don't, right?
#Post#: 2810--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 6, 2015, 7:40 am
---------------------------------------------------------
.
I'd say this article very well represents my view on this topic:
"Born Again - The Bible Way"
by Tim Staples - October 5, 2013
CLICK HERE TO READ
HTML http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/born-again-the-bible-way
#Post#: 2812--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Deborah Date: August 6, 2015, 9:48 am
---------------------------------------------------------
And this is my view:
HTML https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/new-birth/
I would also say (having read Tim Staples' article) that there
are many routes to the new birth - and 'praying the sinners'
prayer' is only one of them.
#Post#: 2813--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 6, 2015, 11:33 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=CatholicCrusader link=topic=317.msg2810#msg2810
date=1438864811]
I'd say this article very well represents my view on this topic:
"Born Again - The Bible Way"
by Tim Staples - October 5, 2013
CLICK HERE TO READ
HTML http://www.catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/born-again-the-bible-way<br
/> [/quote]
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=317.msg2812#msg2812
date=1438872523]
And this is my view:
HTML https://deborahsbiblestudies.wordpress.com/2013/05/01/new-birth/
I would also say (having read Tim Staples' article) that there
are many routes to the new birth - and 'praying the sinners'
prayer' is only one of them. [/quote]
So, the way to arbitrate two opposing views is: What did the
first Christians do; what did the early leaders of the Church,
taught by the apostles themselves, do:
Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some
teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which
took place when we went down into the water and obtained the
remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard
rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians]
teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live
accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and
are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves
regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the
universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy
Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ
also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into
the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D.
151]).
Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the
sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into
eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite
heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a
great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her
first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with
nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live
in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the
example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water,
nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding
in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to
teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little
fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D.
203]).
"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).
"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with
the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the
Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50],
when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and
blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized
with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism
which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been
received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).
Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to
be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has
seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water
unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from
concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would
otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us:
‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living
water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you
shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to
the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will
not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit
of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living
water for his own salvation" (Homilies11:26 [A.D. 217]).
#Post#: 2817--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 6, 2015, 8:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Historical assurance and preservation of the
faith; the whole point to the giving of the keys to the
kingdom. [/font]
#Post#: 2824--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 7, 2015, 6:52 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=317.msg2817#msg2817
date=1438910822]
[font=trebuchet ms]Historical assurance and preservation of the
faith; the whole point to the giving of the keys to the
kingdom. [/font]
[/quote]
Scholars worth their salt will tell you that when all the early
fathers are in agreement on a particular topic - as they are on
baptism - then that is the correct viewpoint.
#Post#: 2826--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Deborah Date: August 7, 2015, 2:36 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=CatholicCrusader link=topic=317.msg2813#msg2813
date=1438878794]
So, the way to arbitrate two opposing views is: What did the
first Christians do; what did the early leaders of the Church,
taught by the apostles themselves, do:
Hermas
"‘I have heard, sir,’ said I [to the Shepherd], ‘from some
teacher, that there is no other repentance except that which
took place when we went down into the water and obtained the
remission of our former sins.’ He said to me, ‘You have heard
rightly, for so it is’" (The Shepherd 4:3:1–2 [A.D. 80]).
Justin Martyr
"As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians]
teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live
accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and
are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves
regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the
universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy
Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ
also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into
the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]" (First Apology 61 [A.D.
151]).
Tertullian
"Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the
sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into
eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite
heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a
great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her
first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with
nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live
in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the
example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water,
nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding
in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to
teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little
fishes—by taking them away from the water!" (Baptism 1 [A.D.
203]).
"Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none" (ibid., 12).
"We have, indeed, a second [baptismal] font which is one with
the former [water baptism]: namely, that of blood, of which the
Lord says: ‘I am to be baptized with a baptism’ [Luke 12:50],
when he had already been baptized. He had come through water and
blood, as John wrote [1 John 5:6], so that he might be baptized
with water and glorified with blood. . . . This is the baptism
which replaces that of the fountain, when it has not been
received, and restores it when it has been lost" (ibid., 16).
Hippolytus
"[P]erhaps someone will ask, ‘What does it conduce unto piety to
be baptized?’ In the first place, that you may do what has
seemed good to God; in the next place, being born again by water
unto God so that you change your first birth, which was from
concupiscence, and are able to attain salvation, which would
otherwise be impossible. For thus the [prophet] has sworn to us:
‘Amen, I say to you, unless you are born again with living
water, into the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, you
shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.’ Therefore, fly to
the water, for this alone can extinguish the fire. He who will
not come to the water still carries around with him the spirit
of insanity for the sake of which he will not come to the living
water for his own salvation" (Homilies11:26 [A.D. 217]).
[/quote]
I would be broadly in agreement so far.
#Post#: 2827--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: August 8, 2015, 1:55 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Some questions about the Shepherd of Hermas
HTML http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/shepherd.html:
The first question is about the passage which follows one which
was already cited -- Chapter 3, Fourth Commandment:
And I said, "I heard, sir, some teachers maintain that there is
no other repentance than that which takes place, when we
descended into the water and received remission of our former
sins." He said to me, "That was sound doctrine which you heard;
for that is really the case. For he who has received remission
of his sins ought not to sin any more, but to live in purity.
Since, however, you inquire diligently into all things, I will
point this also out to you, not as giving occasion for error to
those who are to believe, or have lately believed, in the Lord.
For those who have now believed, and those who are to believe,
have not repentance for their sins; but they have remission of
their previous sins. For to those who have been called before
these days, the Lord has set repentance. For the Lord, knowing
the heart, and foreknowing all things, knew the weakness of men
and the manifold wiles of the devil, that he would inflict some
evil on the servants of God, and would act wickedly towards
them. The Lord, therefore, being merciful, has had mercy on the
work of His hand, and has set repentance for them; and He has
entrusted to me power over this repentance. And therefore I say
to you, that if any one is tempted by the devil, and sins after
that great and holy calling. in which the Lord has called His
people to everlasting life, he has opportunity to repent but
once. But if he should sin frequently after this, and then
repent, to such a man his repentance will be of no avail; for
with difficulty will he live."
What does he mean "his repentance will be of no avail" if
someone sins frequently after baptism? I think I understand,
maybe I even agree; but I'm not sure what he means.
Did the Spirit carry his physical body? The first time is given
in chapter 1 of the First Vision:
I fell asleep. And the Spirit carried me away, and took me
through a pathless place, through which a man could not travel,
for it was situated in the midst of rocks; it was rugged and
impassible on account of water. Having passed over this river, I
came to a plain. I then bent down on my knees, and began to pray
to the Lord and to confess my sins. And as I prayed, the heavens
were opened, and I see the woman whom I had desired saluting me
from the sky, and saying, "Hail, Hermas!" And looking up to her,
I said, "Lady, what doest thou here?" And she answered me, "I
have been taken up here to accuse you of your sins before the
Lord."
How did the woman appear after the heavens were shut -- Chapter
2?
After she had spoken these words, the heavens were shut. I was
overwhelmed with sorrow and fear, and said to myself, "If this
sin is assigned to me, how can I be saved, or how shall I
propitiate God in regard to my sins, which are of the grossest
character? With what words shall I ask the Lord to be merciful
to me? While I was thinking over these things, and discussing
them in my mind, I saw opposite to me a chair, white, made of
white wool, of great size. And there came up an old woman,
arrayed in a splendid robe, and with a book in her hand; and she
sat down alone, and saluted me, "Hail, Hermas!" And in sadness
and tears I said to her, "Lady, hail!" And she said to me, "Why
are you downcast, Hermas? for you were wont to be patient and
temperate, and always smiling. Why are you so gloomy, and not
cheerful?
And how was she moving when she left in Chapter 4?
When she had ended her reading, she rose from the chair, and
four young men came and carried off the chair and went away to
the east.
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page