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#Post#: 2783--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Must We 'Choose' Baptism?
By: Kerry Date: August 5, 2015, 5:12 am
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[quote author=Deborah link=topic=317.msg2781#msg2781
date=1438758631]
John heard a trumpet - not the last trumpet. Nor were all the
dead raised when he was taken up to heaven in the Spirit.
[/quote]Paul does not say "al the dead" will be raised at the
"last trump." He says "the dead" will be raised.
John tells us about the dead being raised in Revelation and also
tells us that those things must shortly come to pass. Matthew
tells us how the dead were raised.
Matthew 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in
twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and
the rocks rent;
52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints
which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went
into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
That is not describing physical events. The physical veil of
the Temple was not rent. People would have known about it.
Jews would have known about; and Josephus would have written
about it. Nor did physical bodies come out of the earth.
These were the souls of those who slept.
Several states of existing after the death of the physical body.
There is a type where the soul falls into an unconscious state
resembling sleep. It can remain that way until "something"
wakes it up.
There are souls in purgatory or gehinnom too; and sometimes a
saint can get them out. The Jews say Isaac obtained the
privilege of getting his offspring out by his willingness to
sacrifice himself. It may surprise even some Catholics that
St. Francis appeared after his death to one of his brothers and
told him he had the privilege of getting any soul of a
Franciscan out of purgatory. I don't doubt it. In fact, I
would say Francis could get almost anyone out if he wanted.
There is another saint, I forget her name, who did not say her
prayers got souls out of purgatory; but she could and did pray
for people and could tell the exact moment they were released
from purgatory. You may think me a madman of the first order;
but I too have seen souls released from states that some might
call purgatory, gehinnom or hell.
Understanding that the "seventh trump" is the same as the "last
trump" and the same trumpet that Israel heard may explain
things. Israel did not want to hear it -- they did not obey --
they hardened their hearts. David said of it that for that
reason they did not enter into "the rest." The mystery of God
was not yet "finished" for them.
#Post#: 2785--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: August 5, 2015, 5:56 am
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Maybe we're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question
should be if the baptism of an adult can be valid?
The answer is no, not if he remains an adult for it is written,
"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall
not enter into the kingdom of heaven."
#Post#: 2786--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 5, 2015, 6:41 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=317.msg2785#msg2785
date=1438772186]
Maybe we're asking the wrong question. Maybe the question
should be if the baptism of an adult can be valid?
The answer is no, not if he remains an adult for it is written,
"Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall
not enter into the kingdom of heaven." [/quote]
Seriously? I think you are injecting a rather poetic phrase
("Except ye be converted, and become as little children") into a
hard core fact that adults can of course be baptized.
Saint Augustine testifies to how reason puts man on the road
toward God and how it is faith that informs and elevates reason.
He summarized this in the famous dictum, "I believe, in order to
understand; and I understand, the better to believe" (Sermo
43:9). Late in life Augustine was baptized, then later became a
bishop, and ultimately a Saint. But he never abandoned his adult
reasoning.
#Post#: 2789--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 5, 2015, 12:20 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Mature reasoning is only one aspect of being
an "adult". Likewise, there are many aspects of being
"childlike" (as opposed to "childish"). It was likely the
aspect of being open to teaching, open to the leading of the
Spirit (being sheep) and trusting of both our Father and the
Church that Jesus referred to when saying we must be like
children.
A follower of Jesus must be a strange combination of "adult" and
"child", and must utilize a strange combination of both
reasoning and faith; being able to do so is what makes people
of faith unique. This is, I think, a gift of God--grace to
become mature among men, yet a child before God.[/font]
#Post#: 2790--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: August 5, 2015, 1:21 pm
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Maybe John the Baptist tells us what kind of "adult" mind that
can't be baptized validly.
Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees
come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers,
who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our
father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to
raise up children unto Abraham.
Could these people call God Father? No. They would have been
lying if they called God Father. Their father was the Devil.
Jesus said something similar about this kind of person:
John 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our
father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye
would do the works of Abraham.
40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the
truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be
not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love
me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of
myself, but he sent me.
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot
hear my word.
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father
ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not
in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh
a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father
of it.
Now of course, we can say God is the Source of all that is and
in that way He could be seen as Father of all; but the person
infected with the serpent mind is not acknowledging that. He
is cunningly trying to serve self.
We must turn away from our sins and from wanting to sin. It
does no good to try to fool God by putting on an act in an
attempt to escape punishment. We can often fool our fellow
man when caught in misdeeds and lies by putting on an act of
being sorry when we aren't (another lie!) only to repeat the
misdeeds and lies. It is possible to abuse the good nature of
others who want to have everything fixed, they are eager to want
to think we've changed for the better, so we can con them.
The type of person who lies to escape punishment may be able to
abuse the good nature in others but he can't fool God with this
act.
So far, so good, but there is a form of Christianity that seems
to neglect this need for genuine repentance before adults can be
baptized. Various forms of the Sinner's Prayer exist, and
repentance is mentioned in some and not in others. It makes me
wonder, truly, if some people are teaching a false gospel that
promises salvation without the need for repentance. Here's the
prayer from Pilgrim's Progress via Wikipedia
HTML https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinner%27s_prayer:
God be merciful to me a sinner, and make me to know and believe
in Jesus Christ; for I see, that if his righteousness had not
been, or I have not faith in that righteousness, I am utterly
cast away. Lord, I have heard that thou art a merciful God, and
hast ordained that thy Son Jesus Christ should be the Savior of
the world; and moreover, that thou art willing to bestow him
upon such a poor sinner as I am—and I am a sinner indeed. Lord,
take therefore this opportunity, and magnify thy grace in the
salvation of my soul, through thy Son Jesus Christ. Amen.
Is it enough to say "I am a sinner" and "please forgive me"?
Here's another version from Cru which used to be Campus Crusade:
Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my
sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior
and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal
life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of
person You want me to be
Only God knows (and perhaps His prophets from time to time if
it's revealed to them) the hearts of men; but this form of
prayer should raise concerns, I think. They seem to teach
that our sins can be forgiven without the need for repenting.
We can even continue to sin with impunity and without any kind
of action to try to correct bad situations we have created (no
penance) simply by asking Jesus for forgiveness again.
I doubt -- really I do -- that the baptism of adults would have
any validity if their goal was to fool God. God is a God of
Love and Mercy, but they see Him as a God of anger so their goal
is to try to placate Him by putting on an act. The goal is not
to find Love but to escape what they perceive as "the wrath to
come."
Babies do not need to be taught to love. Their nature inclines
that way already. Do they have God as Father? According to
Jesus, yes.
Matthew 18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little
ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always
behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
Babies do not need to repent and reject the serpent as father
since they already have God as their Father. it seems to me
that putting up obstacles to their baptism by teaching they
ought not be baptized is a form of trying to separate them from
God and making it easier for them to adopt the serpent as father
as they start growing up and face an evil world.
Mark 10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and
said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and
forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Effective baptism seems harder as an adult since the adult may
not be sincere in his repentance. I say baptize children
before the mind of the serpent gets at them. The adult who
truly repents is not rejecting reason; but his repentance is not
the result of reason. He is not slyly trying to use his mind
to con God.
Can children forgive more easily than adults? I think so --
and they continue to be able to forgive easily until they
realize other people sometimes con them. They then get wary
about it. I think we need to be able to see God as a God of
Love who wants everything to be corrected, wants to forgive
sins, wants things set right. A child can see that nature in
himself more easily than adults can -- so it's easier for him to
see God that way. Adults are more likely to want to "be
forgiven" themselves while not being willing to forgive others.
That's how I see it.
#Post#: 2791--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 5, 2015, 2:31 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]^great stuff. Truly, Kerry.
Terry, I've thumbed through some of Saint Augustine's
Confessions; good stuff in there, too. His story of falling
away to his mother's despair but later becoming quite the man of
God is inspiring. Born in 354! Imagine.
Anyway, yes, I've come to understand how essential is
repentance, and how even penance can be required, and helpful.
Baptism without repentance (for adults) makes little sense.
A couple days ago I saw a hawk flying away with a snake in its
beak. Was quite a sight. Symbolic, one could say, of
repentance? [/font]
#Post#: 2792--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: August 5, 2015, 3:14 pm
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I like St. Monica better than her son. Augustine was a
terrible man when young. He treated women horribly. His
mother was a wonderful person. Her husband was abusive too and
by church rules she could have left him since he was a pagan;
but she stuck in there and eventually he was worn down by her
love.
Eventually I think Augustine also saw something about women by
how his mother lived. Women shouldn't be treated the way he had
treated them. While I am not sure he ever fully got this
straight, he did give up his dissolute life of abusing women
with casual sex. There is something very wonderful to me about
St. Monica -- something that shows the continuing conflict
between the seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman.
When we repent, we reject the serpent, I believe.
The hawk or eagle with the serpent in its talons or mouth is a
sacred symbol to me. Eagles don't eat snakes, but they can
kill them. The old serpent nature is killed -- it dies. Then
there is a rebirth. We can even say Jesus "comes" at that time
in a certain way.
We could say one serpent dies on the cross but a flying serpent
is raised -- and gets his wings back. He is no longer cast to
the earth to eat the dust.
It is said that God bore Israel on the wings of an eagle. I'd
say that was over the Red Sea, when they were being baptized in
the sea and cloud.
Exodus 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how
I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
But the serpent in them was not yet dead. Thus the fiery
serpents appeared to strike at their heels. Compare that to
Genesis about how the serpent strikes. A curse was removed
from them when they saw the serpent Moses put on the pole; but
that was not enough to guarantee their entry into the Land of
Promise. Their birth by water was not enough.
There is a temptation for good people to succumb to the wiles of
the serpent when we cannot believe others could possibly put on
such an impressive act of being good while secretly harboring
evil towards us. Thus the good and gentle men of Israel were
sitting ducks when Balaam advised Balak to send in pagan women
to pretend they loved the men of Israel. They seduced them and
led them into great error. They were gentle as doves but did
not understand the evil of the serpent in others. It is not
enough to be as gentle as the dove; we must be as wise as the
serpent too, so we can outwit it -- and even rejoice when the
eagle kills it.
#Post#: 2793--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 5, 2015, 6:00 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=317.msg2792#msg2792
date=1438805677]
I like St. Monica better than her son. Augustine was a
terrible man when young. He treated women
horribly..................[/quote]
.....and Paul slaughtered Christians, until he didn't.
Its kinda hard to like one Saint in Heaven standing bore God
more than another Saint in Heaven standing bore God.
Remember the story of the prodigal son.
#Post#: 2795--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 5, 2015, 6:31 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Yes, both Paul and Augustine had a dark past.
Many do. So , yes, the prodigal son comes to mind.
Well, that's where repentance and forgiveness all come in. New
direction, new birth.
We could talk about 'baptism by fire', too.
I kinda favor St. Francis, or . . . feel a type of kinship with
him, I guess, is a better way of putting it. Isn't that what's
meant by a 'patron saint'?
I had forgotten that Augustine's mother is considered a saint.
Did she write anything?
[/font]
#Post#: 2796--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 5, 2015, 6:47 pm
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LOL! Not only did I do a typo, I copied and pasted it! I meant
"before", not "bore":
"Its kinda hard to like one Saint in Heaven standing before God
more than another Saint in Heaven standing before God"
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