DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Religious Discussions
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2763--------------------------------------------------
Born Again
By: Kerry Date: August 3, 2015, 3:32 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=313.msg2759#msg2759
date=1438527124]
But it wasn't a question - you made a statement:
Is it too much to ask you to explain what you mean - since you
were the person to bring it up? I cannot imagine what a person
'moving like the wind' would look like.[/quote]I just rechecked
the thread, and I think you introduced it.
HTML http://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com/general-discussion/must-we-'choose'-baptism/?message=2743
[quote]John the Baptist preached the uncomfortable truth that
being born into a covenant family does not automatically make
you a child of God. His message was basically this: that in
order to enjoy the covenant blessings promised to Abraham, it
was not enough to be a physical descendant of Abraham (which was
what circumcision signified). It was necessary to make a
personal confession of sin and commitment to God, expressed in
baptism. As Jesus explained to Nicodemus, a Jew circumcised (and
thus admitted to the covenant) eight days after he was born,
“You must be born again” (John 3:7) – “born of water and the
Spirit” (John 3:5) – in order to enter the Kingdom of
God.[/quote]
You were tying two things together there, and I did not
understand your definition of "born again" or how you connect
the two things. I asked you to clarify. My statement was to
the effect that I expected any answers to explain how the born
again person could move like the wind and how Jesus expected
Nicodemus to know about it.
In my way of looking at things, a person can be born of water
but not yet of the Spirit. The disciples could be said to have
been born of water after their baptisms; but it remained for
them to be baptized by fire. The person who is born of the
Spirit is not tied to his physical body. He can move outside
it. He can even be in two places at the same time as some
saints are known to do. That is mentioned also in Jesus' talk
with Nicodemus when he says the Son of Man came down from Heaven
and can go up to Heaven -- but also is "in Heaven."
Many people are so tied to their physical bodies, they become
slaves to them. They can't get out. The "Word of God" is
able to sort things out -- the Living Word.
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and
sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is
a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
The person born of water should be able to travel outside his
body to some degree, but he cannot visit Heaven. The person
born of Spirit can.
The writings of John are interesting on this point since he
writes so much on the topic of becoming "sons." He is also the
only one to mention the discussion with Nicodemus; and he is the
only one of the twelve who left us a record of being caught up
into Heaven. This explains for me too why Jesus said John
would see his second coming, "If I will that he tarry till I
come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
So far as I can see, only John of the twelve experienced this
and was "born of the Spirit." He achieved spiritual perfection
while still living in his physical body -- a rare thing.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of
many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second
time without sin unto salvation.
1 John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his
seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of
God.
He becomes a "son of Adam" -- meaning of the proper image and
likeness which Adam had been made in -- a "son of man" as the
prophet Ezekiel was called -- and I think Ezekiel was also
caught up, moving around in the Spirit.
[quote] I absolutely agree. "Shall we go on sinning, so that
grace may increase? By no means!" (Romans 6:1,2) Not because
those sins are not covered by baptism/Christ's death, but
because we are called to live the new life He has given us.
Because He is my Lord as well as my Saviour.[/quote]
I've never found Paul very clear and follow Peter's advice about
being cautious basing my beliefs on what Paul writes; but my
sense of what he's writing there is that the person who has been
"born of water" still has some urges to sin within. In chapter
7, he says those things can rise up and prompt us to sin.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law
of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin
which is in my members.
In short, there are still things which need removing -- before
the person can be "born of the Spirit" -- without sin.
For me, I realize my ideas could be flawed if I based them
solely on my own interpretations; but I also rely on the lives
of some of the saints. We won't read where they said, "I am
perfect" but I think we can see that they kept working at
eliminating the urge to sin, and some even seemed to have done
it. Some were so freed of the limitations of being slaves to
the flesh, they could leave their bodies. In some, we see the
marks of the Cross given to them -- the stigmata.
Flesh is flesh, spirit is spirit -- flesh cannot inherit the
kingdom. The person born of water by baptism has not seen or
inherited the kingdom yet. He has not yet been born of the
Spirit. Nor am I convinced by Pentecostal definitions about
being born again. They are still in bodies of flesh -- the
Word has not separated the body, soul and spirit. They cannot
move like the wind. I do not see how able to speak in tongues
is evidence of being born of the Spirit. But often it seems
they see it that way; and I believe this is unfortunate since
they believe they've achieved something already when they should
be working towards it.
There are three times when Jesus is announced as "son." My own
belief on this is that he was "born of the Spirit" before the
sign was given; but the sign was given to teach us doctrine.
First he was born in a physical body, and this was announced by
angels. Then his sonship was announced at his baptism; and the
third time was at the transfiguration. For me, these three
announcements correspond to what Jesus told Nicodemus. We have
all been born in the flesh and we know what that is. Born of
the water and of the Spirit seem to confuse us; but the pattern
shown in Jesus' life may help clear things up. A few may
attain glorified bodies while their physical bodies are still
alive; but most will attain them later. This change is not
perceptible to the physical eyes of other men -- unless it is
revealed to them -- and Jesus didn't show his body of Light to
all the disciples, only to three. Paul tells us frankly that
he had not attained.
Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either
were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may
apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Incidentally, I think Nicodemus would have known what Jesus
meant. He was testing Jesus to see if Jesus was who he thought
he might be. Jesus says a few mysterious things, and Nicodemus
is convinced Jesus is Messiah. There appears to be some
rabbinical banter going on there, both of them teasing each
other. The children's song tells us that we know what it is
but Nicodemus did not; and pride may prompt us to think we do
know and he did not. He would have known. There were people
(the Pharisees especially) who knew about being born again and
entering the kingdom. Jesus lambasted some of them.
Matthew 23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees,
hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men:
for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are
entering to go in.
They knew how to enter but didn't; and worse, they didn't wants
others to enter either so they concealed some things. They
were enjoying their positions which made them superior to others
and gave them power. John, who seems to have inside sources,
tells usone reason they opposed Jesus was fear of losing their
own positions.
John 11:48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on
him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and
nation.
I think we're being naive if we believe Nicodemus didn't know
already what born again meant. He was on the right side though,
unlike so many others. He did not want to shut up Heaven as a
way of maintaining his own position.
We see a pattern. At first, we all need help from others. Even
if our parents and ministers have told us some things which
aren't true, they still taught us some things which are
valuable to know. We have Bibles only because previous
generations preserved the texts. We know about Jesus because
someone told us. Thus we see it's more than "Jesus and me."
What other people do affects us.
We also see that we can't baptize ourselves. We can repent of
our sins by ourselves; but we can't baptize ourselves. And we
can't expect Jesus to do it. The Bible says he didn't baptize
anyone but had his disciples do it. Yes, I believe in
"spiritual baptism" which can occur when it's impossible to be
baptized physically; but I think it's important to obey the
commandment when we can since it teaches us humility for one
thing. I think we are forming more than a one-to-one
relationship with Jesus -- it should be a relationship with the
whole Body of Christ; and I think the reason he didn't baptize
people himself is because he wants us to know that. The
adult's wish to be baptized is not sufficient by itself. He has
to find someone else to do it. The question is slightly
different though if we ask if parents can decide for their
children. Still we can see that what "I" want is not such a
critical factor.
#Post#: 2768--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Must We 'Choose' Baptism?
By: Deborah Date: August 4, 2015, 5:42 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]You were tying two things together there, and I did not
understand your definition of "born again" or how you connect
the two things. I asked you to clarify. My statement was to
the effect that I expected any answers to explain how the born
again person could move like the wind and how Jesus expected
Nicodemus to know about it. [/quote]
Well, I don't understand your definition of 'born again' either
- I've never come across anything like it before. That's why I
asked you to explain what you meant. Why should a born-again
person be able to travel outside their own body? If that indeed
happens to anyone, it must be very rare - which would mean that
the Kingdom of God is only for the elite few.
I don't expect any Christian to 'move like the wind' _ I do
however expect all of us to be acted upon by the Holy Spirit
(and thus to move like a leaf blown along by the wind, powered
by a force outside of oneself, and much stronger). I imagine
Nicodemus going back to Ezekiel 36 & 37, and reading those
passages again with fresh eyes: "I will put My Spirit in you and
move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep My laws."
(Ezekiel 36:27) Nothing about visiting heaven or being in two
places at once, but simple obedience to the will of God.
#Post#: 2769--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Must We 'Choose' Baptism?
By: Kerry Date: August 4, 2015, 7:56 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=317.msg2768#msg2768
date=1438684958]
Well, I don't understand your definition of 'born again' either
- I've never come across anything like it before.[/quote]Most
people have not. Many Jews have heard of it but not been
instructed in it. The Sanhedrin wanted to take the book of
Ezekiel out of circulation since it mentioned the cherubim so
explicitly. The people who knew about it didn't want others to
know. There were too many copies, however, and the book was
too popular that they could hide it away.
To this day, the details of the merkabah or chariots have not
been written down but are passed on one-to-one by a master to a
student. It was the Pharisee tradition that possessed this
information; and note too that Jesus said the Pharisees knew how
to enter the kingdom but didn't -- and prevented others from
entering.
When the New Testament mentions it, they tend to skim over it.
John is not that explicit; Paul is not, and Paul would have
known of it since he studied with Gamaliel the Pharisee.
Nicodemus and Jesus are exchanging hints only.
Also remember Jesus said salvation was of the Jews.
John 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship:
for salvation is of the Jews.
[quote]That's why I asked you to explain what you meant. Why
should a born-again person be able to travel outside their own
body? [/quote]First of all, it is a great comfort to know we are
not our bodies. The fear of death is removed.
Secondly, it is a sign that the spirit (the real person) has
ceased being a slave to the flesh. He no longer serves the
flesh. Instead the physical body is viewed as a "vehicle" or
"temple" of God. It is no great tragedy if that temple ceases
to exist.
Thirdly, the person who can move outside his body can travel and
see and do things. He may visit Heaven, Paradise, Purgatory
or Hell. Work can be down there.
[quote]If that indeed happens to anyone, it must be very rare -
which would mean that the Kingdom of God is only for the elite
few. [/quote]Yes, it is rare just as Jesus said. One does not
attain it easily; and anyone who believes he has attained easily
should check himself for pride.
Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the
gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and
many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
There are many Christians who don't seem to believe what Jesus
said there. There are some people who believe all they need to
do is "accept Jesus as their Savior," get baptized, have
someone lay hands on them and speak in tongues -- and presto,
it's that easy. If it were that easy, more than a few would
find it.
According to the parable of the Pearl of Great Price, a person
has to sell all his other pearls to get it. It is also like
the Parable of the buried treasure where the man sold everything
he had to buy the field.
If it were that easy, Paul would have attained. Can we believe
we can become superior to Paul by a few simple things given to
us in a formula?
[quote]I don't expect any Christian to 'move like the wind' _ I
do however expect all of us to be acted upon by the Holy Spirit
(and thus to move like a leaf blown along by the wind, powered
by a force outside of oneself, and much stronger). I imagine
Nicodemus going back to Ezekiel 36 & 37, and reading those
passages again with fresh eyes: "I will put My Spirit in you and
move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep My laws."
(Ezekiel 36:27) Nothing about visiting heaven or being in two
places at once, but simple obedience to the will of God.[/quote]
Jesus himself talked of being in two places at the same time
when talking with Nicodemus, saying the Son of Man came down
from Heaven AND the Son of Man is in Heaven. He was able to
walk around in a physical body -- but he was also still in the
bosom of the Father.
Ezekiel speaks of falling down (the physical body) and then
being carried away. Some people may think his physical body
was carried along; but I would say they simply are so trapped
by their bodies, they can't conceive of such a thing. And when
they die, they may find it harder to pass.
Is being born of the Spirit for the "elite few"? We could
think of it that way; but the way is hard. Some are called to
be martyred for the sake of the kingdom. All sorts of trials
and tribulations may come their way. Yes, finding the gate
to the kingdom is very hard; but let's not think that means only
a few will be saved. Jesus said that to his inner circle in
the Sermon on the Mount while instructing them. He said
something else the same day after coming down from the mountain.
Matthew 8:8 When he was come down from the mountain, great
multitudes followed him.
. . .
8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that
thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and
my servant shall be healed.
9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and
I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and
he cometh; and to my servant, Do this, and he doeth it.
10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that
followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great
faith, no, not in Israel.
11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and
west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in
the kingdom of heaven.
He appears to be contradicting himself, doesn't he? And in the
same day. But it is not a contradiction. Few are born of
the Spirit in this life; but that does not mean they cannot be
born of the Spirit later. The person who can achieve it in
this life however does great work for the Kingdom since he acts
as a fisher of men.
Let me also quote sections from Revelation:
Revelation 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead.
And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I
am the first and the last:
He falls down just as Ezekiel did. When Jesus speaks to him,
the Word of God is separating body, soul and spirit.
He then receives the prophecies of the seven churches and then
he hears a "trumpet."
Revelation 4:4 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was
opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it
were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither,
and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was
set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Trumpet? Yes, trumpet. I told you Paul studied with Gamaliel
and could have been instructed in this mystery. He mentions a
mystery and he also mentions a trumpet.
1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
mortal must put on immortality.
I read that as written. Who is the "we"? It is Paul and the
people in Corinth he was writing to. He is not referring to
some future generation thousands of years later. He is saying
some will be changed before they "sleep" or "die." He does not
distinguish between those who attain before death and those who
attain it after. He says all will be changed, but some will be
changed before they die.
Yet many people read that and believe Paul erred. They believe
everyone in Corinth died without being changed.
The Catholic Church is slow at times to canonize some people,
but correctly so. If I would criticize them, it's that
sometimes they rush too much; but it was very clear to me that
Padre Pio was a saint since he had the signs of someone who
had been born of the Spirit. The stigmata are not always
given but they are a hint. Some wicked people even develop
stigmata. There was clear evidence however of his being in two
places at the same time. He also visited purgatory. There
are several other saints who have visited Heaven, Hell, and
Purgatory. I know of one Copt who could bilocate.
My own view on why some Protestants do not attain this ability
is their attitude towards Mother Mary. How can they be born
without a Mother? Not only John the only disciple who was
"born of the Spirit," we also find he was the only male disciple
at the cross -- and Jesus told him to consider Mary his Mother
and told Mary to consider John her son.
I forgot to mention Jonah. There are people, perhaps most, who
believe Jonah's experience was in the physical sea; but he says
he was in sheol -- the abode of the dead. I say that too --
and that is the reason Jesus compared himself to Jonah. People
would prefer to think a large fish swallowed him than to think
he could have been visiting the abode of the dead.
The Jews, by the way, have a fairly famous story about three
Rabbis who visited Heaven or Paradise. It's written in language
that is hard to understand, of course.
If you find all this hard to believe, let me stagger your
imagination even more. The Jews have a list of people they say
were assumed bodily into Heaven. This is even more rare than
the cases of being born of the Spirit when the physical body is
left behind. Enoch and Elijah are on the list of course. Also
on it is Bithiah, the daughter of Pharaoh who rescued Moses in
the ark.
#Post#: 2770--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: CatholicCrusader Date: August 4, 2015, 8:44 am
---------------------------------------------------------
.
At the risk of getting caught in the crossfire of the Hatfields
and the McCoys ;D ........
.....I think the term "born again" has been so mutilated and
usurped by so many people in modern times to mean so many
things, it might be best to not even use it, even though it is a
Biblical phrase.
In my opinion, it might be more constructive to discuss what
what it really means to become an adopted son of the Father,
what Baptism really is and does, and what it means to enter into
the New Covenant (6th covenant) established by Jesus. because in
the end, these things all add up to being Born Again.
I really believe what Dr. Scott Hahn says, that an understanding
of "Covenant" is the key that unlocks it all.
Just my two cents.
???
#Post#: 2771--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Must We 'Choose' Baptism?
By: Deborah Date: August 4, 2015, 11:51 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=317.msg2769#msg2769
date=1438692996]
First of all, it is a great comfort to know we are not our
bodies. The fear of death is removed.
Secondly, it is a sign that the spirit (the real person) has
ceased being a slave to the flesh. He no longer serves the
flesh. Instead the physical body is viewed as a "vehicle" or
"temple" of God. It is no great tragedy if that temple ceases
to exist.
Thirdly, the person who can move outside his body can travel and
see and do things. He may visit Heaven, Paradise, Purgatory
or Hell. Work can be down there.
Yes, it is rare just as Jesus said. One does not attain it
easily; and anyone who believes he has attained easily should
check himself for pride.[/quote]
If it's 'hard' to attain, all the more reason for pride at
achieving it, surely?
[quote]Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is
the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and
many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
There are many Christians who don't seem to believe what Jesus
said there. There are some people who believe all they need to
do is "accept Jesus as their Savior," get baptized, have
someone lay hands on them and speak in tongues -- and presto,
it's that easy. If it were that easy, more than a few would
find it.
According to the parable of the Pearl of Great Price, a person
has to sell all his other pearls to get it. It is also like
the Parable of the buried treasure where the man sold everything
he had to buy the field.
If it were that easy, Paul would have attained. Can we believe
we can become superior to Paul by a few simple things given to
us in a formula? [/quote]
How would it make us superior to Paul? Didn't he just repent,
accept Jesus as his Saviour, get baptised, and then speak in
tongues - not to mention all his other apostolic gifts?
It does all sound so easy - but the hard part is turning to
Christ and away from the self. The rest just follows.
[quote]1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We
shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this
mortal must put on immortality.
I read that as written. Who is the "we"? It is Paul and the
people in Corinth he was writing to. He is not referring to
some future generation thousands of years later. He is saying
some will be changed before they "sleep" or "die." He does not
distinguish between those who attain before death and those who
attain it after. He says all will be changed, but some will be
changed before they die.
Yet many people read that and believe Paul erred. They believe
everyone in Corinth died without being changed. [/quote]
What is written is that the change will happen at the last
trumpet, when the dead are raised. The last trumpet hasn't
sounded yet. So yes, I do believe that everyone at Corinth in
the first century died without being changed into immortality.
The 'we' can include all Christians who read the letter - which
was not addressed to Corinth alone - ch 1 v2)
[quote] it was very clear to me that Padre Pio was a saint since
he had the signs of someone who had been born of the Spirit.
The stigmata are not always given but they are a hint. Some
wicked people even develop stigmata. [/quote]
In other words, the stigmata are unreliable as a sign of
spirituality.
[quote]My own view on why some Protestants do not attain this
ability is their attitude towards Mother Mary.[/quote]
Only some? My view is that we just don't have that ambition.
[quote]If you find all this hard to believe[/quote]
I do. Seems to me to be a heady mixture of Jewish and Catholic
mysticism. No wonder I find you so hard to follow.
#Post#: 2773--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 4, 2015, 12:45 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]I've been out of body. Not something I
control, just happens. Some of my happiest experiences were out
of body. No source for pride. Just happens during sleep. I'm
asleep, but simultaneously awake.
It does dispel the fear of death.
I'm more afraid of doctors. ;) ;D ;D[/font]
#Post#: 2774--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Piper Date: August 4, 2015, 12:49 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=CatholicCrusader link=topic=317.msg2770#msg2770
date=1438695861]
.I really believe what Dr. Scott Hahn says, that an
understanding of "Covenant" is the key that unlocks it all.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]
Agree.
Hahn sheds light on so many things. Really like him.[/font]
#Post#: 2776--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Must We 'Choose' Baptism?
By: Kerry Date: August 4, 2015, 9:40 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=317.msg2771#msg2771
date=1438707100]
If it's 'hard' to attain, all the more reason for pride at
achieving it, surely?[/quote]If there is any pride, one hasn't
attained since pride is a sin. Pride and self must be
crucified.
[quote]How would it make us superior to Paul? Didn't he just
repent, accept Jesus as his Saviour, get baptised, and then
speak in tongues - not to mention all his other apostolic
gifts?[/quote]According to him, he spent three years in Arabia
before engaging in the activities of an Apostle. According to
him, he continued to crucify self daily.
1 Corinthians 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our
Lord, I die daily.
Hardly the picture the Calvinists teach, is it? I mentioned
already where Paul said he had not yet attained. He says
something similar here about the continuing need of Christians
to put down the flesh:
Romans 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be
spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not
subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that
the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the
Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but
the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to
live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall
live.
14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God.
I'd have written it slightly differently -- as Peter said, Paul
is hard to grasp at times. The gist here though is, I think,
that only those who allow themselves to be led by the Spirit
become the sons of God -- "born again." Flesh is flesh, spirit
is spirit. The carnal nature must be crucified. On the path
to perfection, the Christian "dies daily."
[quote]It does all sound so easy - but the hard part is turning
to Christ and away from the self. The rest just
follows.[/quote]Yes, easier said than done. Saying the rest
just follows may be true but it is still difficult.
[quote]What is written is that the change will happen at the
last trumpet, when the dead are raised. The last trumpet hasn't
sounded yet.[/quote]This is based on your beliefs. You are
interpreting this passage based on a tradition others taught
you. I showed you where John heard it -- and was "caught up in
the air."
We can go back to Sinai too when the trumpet sounded -- and
Israel did not want to hear it. They did not enter the kingdom
because they did not want to hear the trumpet and obey. David
wrote of it:
Psalm 95: 7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his
pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his
voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the
day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and
said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have
not known my ways:
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into
my rest.
Today is the day of salvation. It is always today. Today if you
will hear His Voice.
[quote] So yes, I do believe that everyone at Corinth in the
first century died without being changed into immortality. The
'we' can include all Christians who read the letter - which was
not addressed to Corinth alone - ch 1 v2)[/quote]Oh, I agree it
certainly include any Christians who read it. But the
tradition you have received teaches that it wasn't true for the
people in Corinth to whom Paul wrote. Nor was it true for
succeeding generations.
Perhaps we should look into what "end of the world" or "end of
the age" means. I think I could find about twenty Scriptures
on the matter, all of which indicate the "end of the age" was
near. Yet so many Christians deny that, don't believe it. They
think the Apostles and even Jesus were mistaken. When they
read Revelation, they skip over anything that contradicts their
doctrines. How many people really believe this?
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave
unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly
come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his
servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of
Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of
this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein:
for the time is at hand.
Few really believe that. They skip over this and then believe
they can understand the rest of the book. Their minds create
all kinds of scenarios about frightening future events.
How many people believe what Jesus said to his disciples?
Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple:
and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of
the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily
I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon
another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came
unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the
world?
People tend to ignore this introduction which gives the context
of what follows -- the sign of his coming and the end of the
world. They read the rest of the chapter as referring to future
events, but if Jesus was telling the truth, those things
happened already and before the destruction of the Temple.
When such contradictions rise to confront us, we need to take a
second look at what we believe. The Bible should be good for
correction; but it is not good for correction if we skip over
the passages which should tell us something is wrong with out
ideas. [quote]In other words, the stigmata are unreliable as a
sign of spirituality.[/quote]
It is not proof of saintliness; but it is an indicator that
something is at work for either good or ill. I think we can
safely judge some things however. Take the case of St.
Catherine of Sienna. I've been remiss myself for never having
read her book past the first page -- but I think I know enough
about her to say I am confident that her stigmata were from
Heaven. I have read her letter to the Pope and was impressed
by her modesty when trying to talk him into returning to Rome.
As a woman, she does not try to exercise spiritual authority
over him. Yet she talked him into it.
She was also embarrassed by having the stigmata. She did not
enjoy or want people to look at her the way some did; so she
prayed to have them either removed or made invisible. Her
prayer was answered. This tells me something she was not
afflicted by pride.
[quote]Only some? My view is that we just don't have that
ambition. [/quote]It is a curiosity to me that it's mostly been
Catholics who were granted the ability to bilocate and to travel
outside their bodies. If Protestants lack that "ambition,"
perhaps they are cheating themselves? The saying is seek and ye
shall find. If we say the gate is so hard to find, it's not
worth looking for, mightn't we be cheating ourselves somehow?
Mightn't we also be cheating the people we know since if we
achieved it, we would be able to help them better by
temporarily bearing their burdens according to the law of
Christ?
Galatians 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the
law of Christ.
Are we on the right track if we are concerned only with our own
salvation? Or are we on the right track if we offer ourselves
as living sacrifices if that will help others?
[quote]I do. Seems to me to be a heady mixture of Jewish and
Catholic mysticism. No wonder I find you so hard to
follow.[/quote]I have also seen a few things myself. My
beliefs are not based solely on ideas others have given me.
Without trying to equate myself with Jesus, I can say something
similar to what he told Nicodemus: "We speak that we do know,
and testify that we have seen. . . ."
There are different ways of dealing with things. One is purely
intellectual, based on manipulating ideas around. This type of
person is like someone who's studied books about automobiles but
never looked at an engine. Or he is like the person who writes
about things without ever having been there. He may be right
or wrong; but if he's never seen what he's thinking about, he
is still operating in the dark. The person who has worked on
engines or visited China knows better what other books mean. He
reads a description and can connect it with something he's seen.
In spiritual terms people who have never seen anything for
themselves could be called spiritually blind. If they choose to
follow leaders who are also spiritually blind, they could be
headed for trouble. Here is where "tradition" enters the
picture and matters. If I cannot see spiritually for myself
and can't a leader who can and who can verify for me that he
can, then the next best thing I can do is find someone who was
instructed by someone who could see spiritually. Sometimes
that too is impossible. Thus it can become a struggle to find
the proper tradition received by the Apostles and passed on.
Rejecting all tradition may also be a sign of pride, I think.
We should beware of the idea that "I am so special God will
tell me things no one else ever knew." I do not follow any
tradition slavishly; but I also don't take my own ideas too
seriously unless I can find where good men before me had the
same idea.
#Post#: 2780--------------------------------------------------
Re: Born Again
By: Kerry Date: August 4, 2015, 11:51 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=317.msg2773#msg2773
date=1438710301]
[font=trebuchet ms]I've been out of body. Not something I
control, just happens. Some of my happiest experiences were out
of body. No source for pride. Just happens during sleep. I'm
asleep, but simultaneously awake.
It does dispel the fear of death.
I'm more afraid of doctors. ;) ;D ;D[/font]
[/quote]Let me gather my thoughts some more before answering
you. I think my answer will tie in with the idea of covenant
too -- but from a different angle than Dr. Hahn's. In brief,
however, only the Son of Man can ascend to Heaven -- and we
cannot do that on our own. If we make covenant with Jesus
however, he imparts part of that nature to us.
#Post#: 2781--------------------------------------------------
Re: Re: Must We 'Choose' Baptism?
By: Deborah Date: August 5, 2015, 2:10 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=317.msg2776#msg2776
date=1438742417]
This is based on your beliefs. You are interpreting this
passage based on a tradition others taught you. I showed you
where John heard it -- and was "caught up in the air."
[/quote]
John heard a trumpet - not the last trumpet. Nor were all the
dead raised when he was taken up to heaven in the Spirit.
*****************************************************
DIR Next Page