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#Post#: 2603--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Amadeus Date: July 19, 2015, 4:55 pm
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[quote]Piper: This too strikes me as beginning to go off a
little off topic; but I'll say this.
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to
doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is
weak, eateth herbs.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine,
nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or
is made weak.
We could say Catholics should give up their crucifixes to avoid
offending others; but frankly, I doubt even one Protestant
would join the Catholic Church if they gave up all their
crucifixes to please him. He'd probably be demanding other
things too after others gave up their crucifixes.
We could also say non-Catholics should keep quiet and avoid
criticizing Catholics over such things. I think we should be
slow to jump to judging others even when what they do seems
clearly wrong to us.[/quote]
We essentially agree. I personally do not condemn Catholics.
Just being a Catholic or being a Protestant (or something else)
is not a reason to dis-fellowship a person, but... individual
actions by anyone, Catholic or not, may help us to know where a
person's heart really is. The heart is what God looks at and it
is where we need to look. Without God's help, however, what are
we able to see? This is why any jumping [if we're going to jump
at all] should be in super slow motion.
[quote]Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto
them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even
their mind and conscience is defiled.
But what do you think about my argument that it is critical
for us to see Jesus on the Cross, just as Israel saw the serpent
on the pole? It is not the statue out there that saves -- but
if that statue creates the correct impressions in our minds so
we see Jesus with spiritual eyes, then I think the statue was
worth having.
[/quote]
[font=courier]Anything that helps us to see Jesus better is
worth having. I don't have any crosses of my own, with or
without Jesus on them, but who am I say what another believer
should or should not have?
[I do have my mother's Catholic rosary, which does have a small
crucifix attached to it. It's been in my desk drawer since I
received it after her death in 2006.][/font]
#Post#: 2604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Piper Date: July 19, 2015, 7:36 pm
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John, hon, the quotes in your post, just above, are not mine.
You were responding to Kerry's words there. I wrote post #9.
#Post#: 2605--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Amadeus Date: July 19, 2015, 9:10 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=302.msg2604#msg2604
date=1437352599]
John, hon, the quotes in your post, just above, are not mine.
You were responding to Kerry's words there. I wrote post #9.
[/quote]
[font=courier]Sorry! I have been known to get confused before.
Just ask my wife. She's an expert on my confusions[/font]
#Post#: 2606--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Piper Date: July 19, 2015, 9:28 pm
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^ Understand perfectly. I AM over 50. ;D ;D ;D Someone asked
my zipcode the other day and I gave one from Illinois over
twenty years ago. He looked at me like, "Huh?" ::)
Me and numbers-- not so much!
#Post#: 2607--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Amadeus Date: July 19, 2015, 10:18 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=302.msg2606#msg2606
date=1437359281]
^ Understand perfectly. I AM over 50. ;D ;D ;D Someone asked
my zipcode the other day and I gave one from Illinois over
twenty years ago. He looked at me like, "Huh?" ::)
Me and numbers-- not so much!
[/quote]
[font=courier]
LOL, at least you know where you lived 20 some years
ago...[/font]
#Post#: 2608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: CatholicCrusader Date: July 20, 2015, 9:12 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=302.msg2579#msg2579
date=1437272307]
[font=trebuchet ms]If the question is raised:
Why do Catholics worship a dead Christ (represented by the
crucifix) rather than the risen Christ (represented by a typical
Protestant cross), how would you give a concise answer?
[/font]
[/quote]
I doubt that I would even dignify such a colossally dumb
question with an answer.
But if you wanted to, you could quote Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:2:
"For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ,
and Him crucified."
#Post#: 2612--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: CatholicCrusader Date: July 20, 2015, 11:10 am
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Full Question
My son is dating a Lutheran girl who finds it hard to understand
why we have a crucifix in every church. I explained that because
of Christ's love for us, he suffered and died on the cross for
our sins and our salvation. She says Jesus' Resurrection is what
they focus on. Could you please explain further?
Answer
Jesus did not redeem us on Easter Sunday. He redeemed us on the
cross on Good Friday. He also said that to be his disciple we
must deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him
(Matt.16:24-27). Nowhere in Scripture do we find him replacing
such attention with Easter Sunday! To behold the image of Jesus
hanging on the cross is to recognize the greatest event in
history. It is to remember how incapable we are of fully
appreciating what his infinite love is—and how infinitely
fortunate we are to know such love (even though imperfectly)
through the gift of faith.
Answered by: Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P.
HTML http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-to-i-explain-to-a-lutheran-the-catholic-focus-on-the-passion-of-christ-exemplifie
#Post#: 2613--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Piper Date: July 20, 2015, 12:27 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]No greater love hath a man . . .
We bow down. We worship you, Lord.[/font]
#Post#: 2614--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Kerry Date: July 20, 2015, 2:17 pm
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[quote author=CatholicCrusader link=topic=302.msg2612#msg2612
date=1437408611]
Full Question
My son is dating a Lutheran girl who finds it hard to understand
why we have a crucifix in every church. I explained that because
of Christ's love for us, he suffered and died on the cross for
our sins and our salvation. She says Jesus' Resurrection is what
they focus on. Could you please explain further?[/quote]
A Lutheran asked this? Some Lutheran churches may have only
crosses; but some them have crucifixes.
[quote]Answer
Jesus did not redeem us on Easter Sunday. He redeemed us on the
cross on Good Friday. He also said that to be his disciple we
must deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him
(Matt.16:24-27). Nowhere in Scripture do we find him replacing
such attention with Easter Sunday! To behold the image of Jesus
hanging on the cross is to recognize the greatest event in
history. It is to remember how incapable we are of fully
appreciating what his infinite love is—and how infinitely
fortunate we are to know such love (even though imperfectly)
through the gift of faith.
Answered by: Fr. Vincent Serpa O.P.
HTML http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/how-to-i-explain-to-a-lutheran-the-catholic-focus-on-the-passion-of-christ-exemplifie[/quote]This<br
/>makes sense to me. I ask too if Jesus had not been willing
to
lay down his life, would the Resurrection have followed? The
great Love he had for mankind, shown to us by him on the cross,
made the Resurrection and our redemption possible.[/quote]
I know what Protestants mean by having plain crosses; but for
all we know, an empty cross could have been used to crucify a
criminal who died and went to hell. The cross as a religious
symbol makes sense to me only if we remember it is a symbol of
the Cross Jesus was on -- so either way the idea of him being on
it is there -- either in the actual symbol or in the mind's eye.
I don't object to either; but perhaps the crucifix is plainer
in its message.[quote author=Piper
link=topic=302.msg2613#msg2613 date=1437413257]
[size=12pt][font=trebuchet ms]No greater love hath a man . . .
We bow down. We worship you, Lord.[/font][/quote]
This reminds me of something else I wanted to write but forgot.
This is a quote from John. Now if it was John at the
crucifixion -- and I believe it was -- then John is writing from
direct personal experience. I believe John was the only male
disciple there; and he saw Jesus being "lifted up" in a way
the other disciples did not. And it was John too, I think, who
was given the promise that he would see Jesus return -- and I
think he did see it, the book of Revelation being a testament to
it. Can Jesus appear to us in his glory if we have failed to
see how he got there, not by putting self first but by being
willing to offer self out of love for others.
John also says:
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not
yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall
appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Are we really seeing Jesus "as he is"? Probably not completely
-- we may all have flaws in our vision. But it seems to me
trying to see him on the cross is critical -- if we want to be
healed. So I believe seeing him on the cross, being "lifted
up" is important.
A note on being lifted up: There are people who say we must
"lift up Jesus." I just googled it and got a lot of hits. It's
pretty clear to me they are sincere people, and I think I know
what they mean; but their use of the phrase shows me they don't
understand the following verse from John or John 12:32:
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
eternal life.
That is a clear reference to the crucifixion, yet people read it
and conclude something else. They talk about lifting up Jesus
again when that would mean crucifying him again! Here's an
example
HTML http://www.charismamag.com/blogs/power-up/17850-how-to-lift-up-jesus-everywhere-you-go<br
/>-- and I repeat their motives might be good.
One morning when I was pondering this question during my prayer
time, the Lord spoke a word to me from Scripture. He said, “And
I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me”
(John 12:32, KJV). It seemed like a simple word at first, but as
I reflected on it, I realized it had tremendous significance.
The Lord was reminding me that we must stop focusing on and
promoting the wrong things! We’ve got to lift Him up—not
ourselves, not other people, not our gifts, not our ministries,
not our churches, not our programs, not our agendas (which
usually have more to do with personal gain than with God’s
purposes), not our jobs, not our material possessions—but Him.
When we do that, He will draw all men unto Himself.
Perhaps if people did not have such an aversion to crucifixes,
they wouldn't make this mistake in interpreting John 3:14 and
12:32. It is seeing the Love of Christ on that cross that will
lead to our healing. . . if we see what he did and love him
enough to do the same.
#Post#: 2615--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Piper Date: July 20, 2015, 2:42 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]CC,
I was thinking. Questions are good, provided someone is
honestly seeking answers to consider and not just fishing for
trouble. How else will anyone know the truth of things? It
would be worse to never ask and just believe rumors and
misinformation.
Thank you for your great responses. Father Serpa made some good
points, especially that, "To behold the image of Jesus hanging
on the cross is to recognize the greatest event in history."
The image of Jesus on the cross IS disturbing, knowing how badly
He must have suffered. But He died there for you and me and all
of us, so despite the brutality we witness there, we also see
the very essense of love, because real love always demands
sacrifice. Jesus gave all.[/font]
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