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#Post#: 2579--------------------------------------------------
Crucifix or Cross
By: Piper Date: July 18, 2015, 9:18 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]If the question is raised:
Why do Catholics worship a dead Christ (represented by the
crucifix) rather than the risen Christ (represented by a typical
Protestant cross), how would you give a concise answer?
[/font]
#Post#: 2580--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Kerry Date: July 18, 2015, 10:04 pm
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I can give you my view.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have
eternal life.
Numbers 21:8 And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery
serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that
every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
I say see it clearly. Do not avert the gaze. Those who see it
clearly will be healed just as those who saw the serpent on the
pole that Moses made were healed.
We should not believe Jesus being shown on the Cross means he's
still on it, dead; but we should see that he offered himself out
of love for us. If we do not see that message of love of Jesus
on the Cross, perhaps we've missed a critical point?
#Post#: 2581--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Deborah Date: July 19, 2015, 1:22 am
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I think it's actually because Protestants feel uncomfortable
with 'images' of Christ. Anywhere.
Which opens a whole can of worms, but there we are.
All of us worship Christ, dead and risen.
#Post#: 2582--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Poppy Date: July 19, 2015, 4:12 am
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The empty cross is a symbol of Jesus' resurrection and of his
victory over sin and death. He is not dead he is alive.
#Post#: 2583--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Kerry Date: July 19, 2015, 6:17 am
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[quote author=Poppy link=topic=302.msg2582#msg2582
date=1437297138]
The empty cross is a symbol of Jesus' resurrection and of his
victory over sin and death. He is not dead he is alive.
[/quote]I would say the empty tomb is the symbol of his
resurrection. Jesus was dead when others took him from the
cross and buried him. He was dead for three days after the
cross was empty, so how can the empty cross represent the
resurrection? Sorry, but I don't get it.
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=302.msg2581#msg2581
date=1437286963]
I think it's actually because Protestants feel uncomfortable
with 'images' of Christ. Anywhere.
Which opens a whole can of worms, but there we are.
All of us worship Christ, dead and risen.
[/quote]Yes, I think there is something to what you say.
#Post#: 2585--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Poppy Date: July 19, 2015, 8:00 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=302.msg2583#msg2583
date=1437304648]
I would say the empty tomb is the symbol of his resurrection.
Jesus was dead when others took him from the cross and buried
him. He was dead for three days after the cross was empty, so
how can the empty cross represent the resurrection? Sorry, but
I don't get it. Yes, I think there is something to what you
say.
[/quote]
Think about it.
#Post#: 2586--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Poppy Date: July 19, 2015, 9:41 am
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There is no power in a cross or crucifix of itself, the power is
in the fact that Jesus died and rose again and either of them is
but a symbol.
There is no power in the image of a dead Jesus. And it isn’t
really Jesus anyway but an artist’s impression.
There is no power in an empty cross either but this reminds us
that Jesus is not dead but alive and also that we all have our
own cross to carry.
The cross was an instrument of torture and execution, and it was
on the cross Jesus shed his blood and died for us, not in the
tomb.
The empty cross symbolises both the death of Jesus in our place
and the victory over sin and death which is forever. Jesus is
not dead, He is alive.
#Post#: 2589--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Amadeus Date: July 19, 2015, 9:53 am
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[font=courier]Any symbol that carries more weight with us than
Jesus or that needlessly distracts us from God's message is a
wrong symbol for us. Not every symbol will hurt me myself alone,
but we also need to consider this:
"Abstain from all appearance of evil." I Thess 5:22
How does what we do, or do not do, appear to others? If it might
in any way lead them astray should we not abstain from it? But,
carrying this too far can also be wrong. This is why we need to
hear the Lord's voice and follow Him always. [/font]
#Post#: 2597--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Kerry Date: July 19, 2015, 1:45 pm
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[quote author=Poppy link=topic=302.msg2586#msg2586
date=1437316881]
There is no power in a cross or crucifix of itself, the power is
in the fact that Jesus died and rose again and either of them is
but a symbol.
There is no power in the image of a dead Jesus. And it isn’t
really Jesus anyway but an artist’s impression.
There is no power in an empty cross either but this reminds us
that Jesus is not dead but alive and also that we all have our
own cross to carry.
The cross was an instrument of torture and execution, and it was
on the cross Jesus shed his blood and died for us, not in the
tomb.
The empty cross symbolises both the death of Jesus in our place
and the victory over sin and death which is forever. Jesus is
not dead, He is alive.
[/quote]Well, I don't want to get into a protracted discussion
about how non-Catholics look at things since that isn't what the
thread is supposed to be about. [quote author=Amadeus
link=topic=302.msg2589#msg2589 date=1437317628]
[font=courier]Any symbol that carries more weight with us than
Jesus or that needlessly distracts us from God's message is a
wrong symbol for us. Not every symbol will hurt me myself alone,
but we also need to consider this:
"Abstain from all appearance of evil." I Thess 5:22
How does what we do, or do not do, appear to others? If it might
in any way lead them astray should we not abstain from it? But,
carrying this too far can also be wrong. This is why we need to
hear the Lord's voice and follow Him always. [/font]
[/quote]This too strikes me as beginning to go off a little off
topic; but I'll say this.
Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to
doubtful disputations.
2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is
weak, eateth herbs.
Romans 14:21 It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine,
nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or
is made weak.
We could say Catholics should give up their crucifixes to avoid
offending others; but frankly, I doubt even one Protestant
would join the Catholic Church if they gave up all their
crucifixes to please him. He'd probably be demanding other
things too after others gave up their crucifixes.
We could also say non-Catholics should keep quiet and avoid
criticizing Catholics over such things. I think we should be
slow to jump to judging others even when what they do seems
clearly wrong to us.
Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that
are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind
and conscience is defiled.
But what do you think about my argument that it is critical
for us to see Jesus on the Cross, just as Israel saw the serpent
on the pole? It is not the statue out there that saves -- but
if that statue creates the correct impressions in our minds so
we see Jesus with spiritual eyes, then I think the statue was
worth having.
#Post#: 2598--------------------------------------------------
Re: Crucifix or Cross
By: Piper Date: July 19, 2015, 1:53 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Both the crucifix and cross in the front of
our churches are beautiful for what they represent to the heart
of the worshippers.
The crucifix well represents our standing before Jesus' cross, a
place none of us should neglect. It is there, in the shedding
of his blood, we are redeemed.
All power is of God, no Catholic nor Protestant believes
differently.
Yes, Jesus both died for us and lives. I think He wishes us to
stand before the cross, to join Him in His suffering, and to
celebrate His victory over death. It really is NOT a case of
either/or-- BOTH are equally important to us.
Think on this: After His ressurection, Jesus showed His
disciples the scars on His hands, the wound in His side. I
think those scars are there, forever. The cross, His
sacrifice, is a gift outside of time, a gift that keeps on
giving to the Children of God. He commanded we eat and drink in
remembrance of His body and blood, given for us. We must NEVER
forget. We each need to honor His incarnation, His death, and
His LIFE, which is our life.
If what others do appears strange to us, it doesn't
automatically mean they are wrong, we are right. Such
infighting is childish and divisive, ungodly. We should not
expect others to abstain because we are too self-righteous or
too lazy or too intentionally critical to strive to understand.
I absolutely do not see that Catholics love Jesus any less than
Protestants. Their method of worship is different, but we
could, and should, be one heart, one soul, one people of the
Lord.
In our churches, what I have seen is that before the crucifix,
we find reverent, solemn, Spirit-led respect and worship of our
Greatest Gift. Before the cross, we find joyful celebration and
warm fellowship. There is room in our lives for both.
This is the time to seek understanding, to join together, to
answer His prayer that we be "one" so that the world will know
we are His. Please visit the mysterious "other place,"
whichever you are not familiar with, and see the love of our
Lord truly is catholic, meaning universal.
Crucifix or cross? I will wear both. I will be glad for
everyone who loves and worships our Savior. I will see us as
one family. It is not a matter of competition, nor a matter of
who's right, who's wrong: It is a matter of patient charity
toward one another.
It is a matter of obedience.
"Love one another."
If only we can learn to understand and love one another, perhaps
we can embrace the world with that same nonjudgmental love.
Last night's Mass: "'Woe to the shepherds who mislead and
scatter the sheep of my pasture,' says the Lord."
Be one who gathers, not one who scatters.
[/font]
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