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#Post#: 2535--------------------------------------------------
Who is accountable
By: Piper Date: July 14, 2015, 6:50 pm
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^"Accountability" of the parents was spoken of in relation to
the fate of the child--not 'saved or unsaved', but seems still
to render the child helpless to the standing of the parents, a
view I find troubling.
Can we move to a new thread if necessary?
#Post#: 2537--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is accountable
By: Gaffer Date: July 15, 2015, 1:01 pm
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Perhaps some explanation for people who don't read T2O would
also be useful. I believe this question arose from a
discussion there in the thread, Are All Believers, believers (2)
HTML http://www.true2ourselves.com/forum/christianity-other-religions/10504-all-believers-believers-2-a-2.html.<br
/>
#Post#: 2539--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is accountable
By: Kerry Date: July 15, 2015, 2:16 pm
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How do people explain these verses?
Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and
transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the
guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children,
and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the
fourth generation.
Deuteronomy 7:9 Know therefore that the Lord thy God, he is God,
the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them
that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand
generations;
We run into problems if we think this means God punishes
innocent children for the sins of their parents since Ezekiel
says this is not true.
Ezekiel 18:19 Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the
iniquity of the father? When the son hath done that which is
lawful and right, and hath kept all my statutes, and hath done
them, he shall surely live.
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear
the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the
iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be
upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath
committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful
and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not
be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he
shall live.
#Post#: 2540--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is accountable
By: Piper Date: July 15, 2015, 2:57 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]The verses seem to contradict each other, as
often happens when looking at Scripture alone.[/font]
#Post#: 2541--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is accountable
By: Kerry Date: July 15, 2015, 7:00 pm
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Well, I think the first thing we should do is dismiss the idea
that God punishes the innocent as a way of punishing the guilty.

Why then does God permit injustice? I say God wants us to learn
how to love one another, and in a way that really means
something. It should really matter. For love to really
matter in this world means I can do things that affect you and
you can do things that affect me. For good or evil, this is so.
So while we are learning how to love each other, the
possibility of injuring each other is always there too.
We also know that what parents do can affect their children,
their grandchildren, and so on. Things have a way of echoing
down the corridors of time. In this world then, children are
going to suffer at times on account of their parents. That's
the way the world is; but it's not God's way. It's not what God
wants.
What we find is a promise that when someone does well, that good
is established for a thousand generations. That really means
forever in practical terms since it would be 25,000 years; but
evil is said to last three or four generations. Why is that?
Well, we are all born with the problem of not wanting to forgive
others; and part of our task here in living on this earth is
learning how to forgive. I believe children who are born to
wicked parents can benefit from it if only they learn the lesson
of how to forgive and how not to pass evil on to their children
or to others. Evil doesn't need to echo down from generation
to generation. Anyone can stop it by obeying the commandment
not to return evil for evil. If your parents do evil to you
and you absorb it and says, "This stops here -- I know I don't
like this being done to me and I refuse to do it to others,"
you've stopped evil in its tracks. In a way too, you've
"atoned" for the sin of your parents. You've removed that evil
from the world by refusing to return evil for evil. This, my
friends, is learning how to love. It's what Jesus wants from
us.
But we should never think God holds innocent children
accountable or responsible for the sins of their parents. When
souls are judged, each of us will be judged by our own deeds and
words. I have researched the matter at length; and every time
the judgment is mentioned, it is always said we will be judged
by our deeds and words.
This matter is easily confused if we believe somehow that we can
continue to be sinners, but somehow Jesus is going to set
everything right for us. Men have devised various doctrines to
justify themselves while they continue in their sins; but we
should not believe we can mock God so. Nor should we believe we
can take Jesus' voluntary laying down of his own life out of
love for us into something that solves our own lack of love.
If we wish to keep sinning after God has shown us what sin is
and how a better way of living life with love is possible, how
can Jesus do anything for us? So let's not invent theories
that tell us if we do X, Y, and Z, we will be saved. That is
superstition like believing the color of a candle is important
or we need incense if we pray. Such outward forms have their
purposes; but God searches the heart. Nothing changed in God's
methods from the Old to the New Testament. The proper sacrifice
remains the broken and contrite heart, just as David said.
Yes, yes, I believe in physical baptism if it's possible. But I
do not believe getting your body wet is going to change anyone
spiritually. Nor can I believe God would punish someone who
dies as a baby because the parents neglected to have it
baptized. My faith is in God, not in rites like physical
baptism; but still when it's possible, obeying the commandment
to be baptized is good since it demonstrates faith in God by
accepting the advice given to us. That act of faith in God is
answered, I believe, by having a spiritual imprint put on the
soul when we are baptized.
#Post#: 2543--------------------------------------------------
Re: Who is accountable
By: Piper Date: July 16, 2015, 1:13 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=296.msg2541#msg2541
date=1437004838]
Well, I think the first thing we should do is dismiss the idea
that God punishes the innocent as a way of punishing the guilty.

I had a friend once who moved out of my house and had to leave
his cat. I was angry at him at the time; and he asked if I was
going to take out my anger on the cat. The question shocked me.
Why would I be mean to the cat if I was angry with him? He
said as a way of getting back at him. I still have the cat --
that's Missy -- and she reminds me of the good times I had with
her previous owner, not the bad. His question told me though
that he had been around people who acted like that: If they
couldn't strike at the person they were angry with, they'd
strike at others who were innocent.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I would call that 'displaced anger.'
My 3rd grade teacher used to withhold recess from the entire
class if she caught one child chewing gum. This used to bother
me, because children who were obeying the rule and not bringing
gum to school were being punished along with the naughty child.
It was effective in a rather mean fashion, though: Classmates
would be angry with, and then mean to, the child who 'deprived'
them of their recess time. But, that, too, seemed wrong,
because it was the teacher who gave unjust punishment to those
who had not disobeyed.[/font]
[quote]I can't believe God is like that. I cannot believe God
would punish a child who hadn't done anything just because his
parents were sinful. People behave like that, God doesn't.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]No, the goodness of God and the tenderness of
Jesus toward children suggests to me that God will find a way
for fair judgement of every soul, even those babies lost to
abortion. I can't say I know for sure how He will do this, but
I know that our God is a god of perfect justice. In the case of
aborted babies, I wonder if perhaps they are given another
chance with another set of parents. I can't know for certain,
but it would seem right and fair. Of course, the whole terrible
drama would need to include repentance, and much forgiveness by
both God and man to be made right.
Scripture speaks of defending the orphan; in a sense aborted
babies ARE orphaned, before birth, because they are being born
to parents who reject them, do not want them, and will not allow
them life. They have lost their parents, not to death, but to
something else, something worse.
[/font]
[quote]Indeed many people crave injustice if it means it
benefits them and theirs. Parents can know their child stole
things and they won't do anything to correct it. It's okay
with them if the other people lost things because their child is
a thief. Some people will protect their "loved" ones even if
they committed murder. It's even more common to want to escape
punishment for our own misdeeds. Sin is basically wanting to
be so important that we can do anything and get away with it no
matter who else gets hurt. It's a failure to love our neighbor
the way we love ourselves.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]When my daughter was little, her grandpa gave
her a fancy, battery-operated toy four-wheeler. One day she was
playing with it in the church parking lot across the street
where she would often play with the neighbor children, when one
of the other little girls began spraying the toy full blast with
a hose. Kevin was there, and, concerned the water would do
damage, he began to scold the little girl and tell her to stop.
Her mom, in the nearby house, heard him scolding her, and
instantly yelled through the window, not even knowing yet what
was going on, "She didn't do it, Kevin!" This, while the hose
was still being wielded. :D We still laugh about it, but, truly
not a good lesson for the child.[/font]
[quote]Some people even want salvation handed to them for
nothing. They want to believe they can treat others with
indifference, contempt or even hate and still be "forgiven" if
only they can suck up to Jesus and flatter him enough to
convince him of something.
That is not God's way. It is man's way. Man craves injustice.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]The homily (which is like a sermon, related
to the Scripture readings presented) last Saturday night, was
about how every free gift comes with a catch. The catch in
Christianity, we were told, is summed up in this verse from
Matthew 10: Freely you have received; freely give. Father Doty
spoke rather affectionately of the movie Pay it Forward, which
is well worth watching.
[/font]
[quote]Why then does God permit injustice? I say God wants us
to learn how to love one another, and in a way that really means
something. It should really matter. For love to really
matter in this world means I can do things that affect you and
you can do things that affect me. For good or evil, this is so.
So while we are learning how to love each other, the
possibility of injuring each other is always there too.
We also know that what parents do can affect their children,
their grandchildren, and so on. Things have a way of echoing
down the corridors of time. In this world then, children are
going to suffer at times on account of their parents. That's
the way the world is; but it's not God's way. It's not what God
wants.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I think of small children, so new to the
world, who are abused by their parents, suffering at the hands
of those who God would intend to be their protectors and their
good example. How confusing and terrible for a child to live
under such conditions, with no one to trust, no one to guide
them. The world must seem a dark and terrible place. Their
soul seeks love and guidance, but finds only cruelty and
sometimes even death. They, too, are orphans, in a sense. But
God is Father of the fatherless, and I do believe He sees, and
that somehow justice will be done.[/font]
[quote]What we find is a promise that when someone does well,
that good is established for a thousand generations. That
really means forever in practical terms since it would be 25,000
years; but evil is said to last three or four generations. Why
is that?[/quote]
[quote]Well, we are all born with the problem of not wanting to
forgive others; and part of our task here in living on this
earth is learning how to forgive.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Forgiveness is huge, I think. Often
forgiving ourselves is perhaps the hardest lesson.[/font]
[quote]I believe children who are born to wicked parents can
benefit from it if only they learn the lesson of how to forgive
and how not to pass evil on to their children or to others.
Evil doesn't need to echo down from generation to generation.
Anyone can stop it by obeying the commandment not to return evil
for evil. If your parents do evil to you and you absorb it and
says, "This stops here -- I know I don't like this being done to
me and I refuse to do it to others," you've stopped evil in its
tracks. In a way too, you've "atoned" for the sin of your
parents. You've removed that evil from the world by refusing to
return evil for evil. This, my friends, is learning how to
love. It's what Jesus wants from us. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]A big amen! Bravo!
A parent who was abused as a child really has two choices: To
NEVER treat their child in the same way. Or to perpetuate the
cruelty. Of course, in deciding to parent differently, caution
needs to be taken not to swing too far the other direction;
sometimes parents who were abused as children might be too
permissive with their child, not finding the good balance
between discipline and abuse. It really is difficult for
parents who had no good example in their own childhood to know
how to effectively parent, but it can be done. Sometimes they
need outside help to learn good parenting methods. [/font]
[quote]But we should never think God holds innocent children
accountable or responsible for the sins of their parents. When
souls are judged, each of us will be judged by our own deeds and
words. I have researched the matter at length; and every time
the judgment is mentioned, it is always said we will be judged
by our deeds and words.
[/quote]
[quote]This matter is easily confused if we believe somehow that
we can continue to be sinners, but somehow Jesus is going to set
everything right for us. Men have devised various doctrines to
justify themselves while they continue in their sins; but we
should not believe we can mock God so. Nor should we believe we
can take Jesus' voluntary laying down of his own life out of
love for us into something that solves our own lack of love.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I believe Jesus wipes the slate clean, so to
speak, but it is up to us, with the help of the Spirit, to keep
it clean. This is not always easy, and is a learning process.
We sin, we must admit our sin, we repent. I haven't experienced
"Confession" yet, but I certainly believe the Sacrament of
Reconciliation, already has me more conscious of sin. I fear I
may be in confession every single week forever . . . :D And,
truly, I don't want to be. I need to address my own
difficulties. We are taught that a heaping pile of venial sin
can add up to mortal sin. So even all those "little things" in
our lives need to be sorted out and gotten rid of. It is good
to know, though, that God is faithful to forgive when we
confess, when we repent.[/font]
[quote]If we wish to keep sinning after God has shown us what
sin is and how a better way of living life with love is
possible, how can Jesus do anything for us? So let's not
invent theories that tell us if we do X, Y, and Z, we will be
saved. That is superstition like believing the color of a
candle is important or we need incense if we pray. Such outward
forms have their purposes; but God searches the heart. Nothing
changed in God's methods from the Old to the New Testament. The
proper sacrifice remains the broken and contrite heart, just as
David said.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Jesus is wholly Savior. We are saved through
Him when we respond to His sacrifice with sincere repentance,
when we grow in favor with God by becoming what He would have us
to be. Sometimes we need very tangible help with these things;
if we have addictions, for example, the spirit may be willing,
but the flesh weak. Our pastors, priests, and professionals may
assist and guide us in positive ways. [/font]
[quote]Yes, yes, I believe in physical baptism if it's possible.
But I do not believe getting your body wet is going to change
anyone spiritually.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]No, it can be a beginning, but the road ahead
is often long. I learned just last night that the Church
believes fully that it is Jesus who baptizes, so even if you
were baptized outside of the Church, they consider it valid.
They stressed that it is God who forgives upon confession, and
God who speaks to us through the Word, and God who heals the
repentant sinner through Mass, the ever-present sacrifice of
Christ.[/font]
[quote]Nor can I believe God would punish someone who dies as a
baby because the parents neglected to have it baptized.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I agree, and the Church comforts parents with
the tenderness of Christ toward children.
God's mercy and justice supersedes doctrine, IMO. The
Sacraments are outward signs of inward grace. Actual grace is
always of God; it is His very nature.[/font]
[quote]My faith is in God, not in rites like physical baptism;
but still when it's possible, obeying the commandment to be
baptized is good since it demonstrates faith in God by accepting
the advice given to us. That act of faith in God is answered,
I believe, by having a spiritual imprint put on the soul when we
are baptized.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I think I would take it a step further and
say that baptism demonstrates obedience, both by our spiritual
leaders and by ourselves. Jesus told His first apostles, "�All
authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore
go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name
of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and
teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And
surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.�
There you see that Jesus considers baptism very necessary, and
He also set the example, allowing John (the baptist) to baptize
Him with water. Of course, there are other baptisms, as well.
We also see Jesus stress the importance of the apostle's
teaching and of obeying everything He has commanded. I don't
think His death on the cross in any way means his command to
obey no longer stands; indeed His death on the cross brings our
moral responsibility to obey God higher. Yes, we are yet judged
by our words and deeds. Jesus made the way, helps us, guides
us, and the Father is faithful to forgive. We must understand
the meaning of sincere repentance. I also see nothing wrong
with penance, and believe it may be helpful to a contrite
spirit, to one with a broken heart. [/font]
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