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#Post#: 2487--------------------------------------------------
About Prayers
By: Kerry Date: July 9, 2015, 5:44 pm
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We read this:
James 5:15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the
Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they
shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another,
that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a
righteous man availeth much.
Does that mean the prayers of sinners don't amount to much?
Sometimes they do! Sometimes the prayers of the so-called
"righteous" don't amount to much. Compare that to this:
Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted
in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee,
and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank
thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust,
adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I
possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so
much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying,
God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather
than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be
abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.
#Post#: 2490--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Piper Date: July 9, 2015, 7:16 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]I think God alone knows who is truly
'righteous.'
Some are, some are not, and some are on the uphill climb of the
road to righteousness. Few are perfect, and all must beg mercy,
I think, for all have sinned.
God obviously hears a sinner who humbles himself and pleads God
bend His ear, because we were all that sinner at one time, and
might be that sinner now and again.
I don't think God misses much, but He might turn His 'favor'
away from those who will not repent.
God will not refuse a humble and contrite heart.[/font]
#Post#: 2497--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Amadeus Date: July 10, 2015, 11:26 am
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[font=courier]Prayer and the result of praying comes back to
where we are along the road, I believe. Who is righteous as God
sees righteous and are there degrees of righteousness? As we can
grow in favour with God (so did Jesus here: Luke 2:52), we grow
in righteousness. How effective are our prayers, or not? That
comes back to Luke 12:48. How much has God given us? How well do
we use what we have been given?
Perhaps this parable applies:
"Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the
fowls came and devoured them up:
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and
forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they
had no root, they withered away.
And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked
them:
But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some
an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold." Matt 13:3-8
And also this one:
"And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to
another one; to every man according to his several ability; and
straightway took his journey.
Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with
the same, and made them other five talents.
And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and
hid his lord's money." Matt 25:15-18 [/font]
#Post#: 2943--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Helen Date: August 19, 2015, 9:41 pm
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For me prayer is a bit of a mystery. I used to believe that we
had to "pray right" to get an answer. So when prayer was not
answered I believed that I must not have prayed in faith.
Now, in my 'elderly wisdom' ( haha!) I believe God isn't a
vending machine that is waiting to please us and answer our
petitions. He wisely does not answer us more than He answers
..I think!
I have to be convinced that He is 'dealing deeper' within us,
than just being interested in answering us.
Maybe I am right in saying ( in my life anyway) He used to
answer prayer much more frequently when I was a young
Christian..these days..I think maybe He is just getting me ready
and seeing how strong my faith really is.. regardless of Him
answering or not. = Do I love Him just for who He is?
...yes...answered prayer or not.
#Post#: 2959--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Amadeus Date: August 20, 2015, 4:01 pm
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[font=courier]There is a way to pray, but there is also a way
not to pray, is there not?
Mike's misgivings aside, scripture does contain guidelines and
answers for if we can find them and understand them. The
following verse, I believe, is very important in this regard:
"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may
consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3
One problem people, I believe, have with even that verse is they
do not really understand what is meant by "lusts". [/font]
#Post#: 2961--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Kerry Date: August 21, 2015, 7:06 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=292.msg2490#msg2490
date=1436487378]
[font=trebuchet ms]I think God alone knows who is truly
'righteous.'
Some are, some are not, and some are on the uphill climb of the
road to righteousness. Few are perfect, and all must beg mercy,
I think, for all have sinned.[/font][/quote]
In theory though, I think we can have a fairly accurate opinion.
If we could not, why would James tells us the fervent prayers
of the righteous avails much? Why tell us that if we couldn't
know who was and who wasn't righteous? Now that opens a can of
worms. . . . If we are fooled, how could that be? I know
I've been fooled in the past; but I try to study the situations
not to critique the people who fooled me but myself to see if I
could figure out what in me may have wanted to be fooled.
I find the Gospels fascinating from the psychology angle. Why
were some people fooled by the shows of piety that the
hypocrites put on? Why could they be manipulated so easily by
those hypocrites into turning against Jesus? I also find it
fascinating when Jesus called certain people hypocrites. I get
the sense that he was not telling people much -- they already
suspected it but it was the Emperor's clothes. No one dared to
say it. Then Jesus dared to say it; and the people who had
always wondered about those hypocrites felt relieved to find out
someone else saw the hypocrisy. [quote author=Amadeus
link=topic=292.msg2959#msg2959 date=1440104500]
[font=courier]There is a way to pray, but there is also a way
not to pray, is there not?
Mike's misgivings aside, scripture does contain guidelines and
answers for if we can find them and understand them. The
following verse, I believe, is very important in this regard:
"Ye ask, and receive not, because ye ask amiss, that ye may
consume it upon your lusts." James 4:3
One problem people, I believe, have with even that verse is they
do not really understand what is meant by "lusts". [/font]
[/quote]But is that the only reason prayers aren't answered?
I think there are some situations which need to develop first
before our prayers can be answered.
In Revelation we read about the souls asking "how long" -- and
their prayers are still not answered immediately. It doesn't
mean their prayers will never be answered, but the time isn't
right yet. Prayers of this sort can help move things along, I
think.
Another passage in Revelation (5:8) portrays some of the prayers
of the saints as being kept in vials. I believe some prayers
don't make it to the attention of God until they can be
answered. They are stored in vials until He can say yes.
Tears can be prayers too.
Psalm 56:8 Thou tellest my wanderings: put thou my tears into
thy bottle: are they not in thy book?
Why in bottles or vials? I think so they can be brought to
God's Throne when the time is right.
#Post#: 2962--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Helen Date: August 21, 2015, 11:15 am
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If anything depends on our righteousness then we are already
defeated. The glory of the New Covenant is that we are righteous
because He says so.. we have imputed righteousness through faith
in Him.
Rom 10 ( Darby) "3 For they, being ignorant of God's
righteousness, and seeking to establish their own
[righteousness], have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is [the] end of law for righteousness to every one
that believes.
5 For Moses lays down in writing the righteousness which is of
the law, The man who has practised those things shall live by
them.
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks thus: Do not say in
thine heart, Who shall ascend to the heavens? that is, to bring
Christ down;
7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? that is, to bring up
Christ from among [the] dead.
8 But what says it? The word is near thee, in thy mouth and in
thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and
shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from among
[the] dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with [the] heart is believed to righteousness; and with
[the] mouth confession made to salvation."
John 6 "28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we
might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
After all these years, 51 this week..I found out that if I have
to "do it" I am lost....I cannot change myself or become "good
enough"...if we could, He would not have had to die for us!!
It took a while for me to get the message...I can't, that is why
I need a Saviour. :)
#Post#: 2963--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Kerry Date: August 21, 2015, 12:02 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=292.msg2962#msg2962
date=1440173714]
If anything depends on our righteousness then we are already
defeated. The glory of the New Covenant is that we are righteous
because He says so.. we have imputed righteousness through faith
in Him. [/quote]
Yes, so the question is who has God imputed righteousness to?
I don't "impute" means "pretend to give" as we may suppose at
first. I think it means it's a gift from God which makes the
person truly righteous. We could also call this being
"justified" -- which means "being made just."
[quote]Rom 10 ( Darby) "3 For they, being ignorant of God's
righteousness, and seeking to establish their own
[righteousness], have not submitted to the righteousness of God.
4 For Christ is [the] end of law for righteousness to every one
that believes.
5 For Moses lays down in writing the righteousness which is of
the law, The man who has practised those things shall live by
them.
6 But the righteousness of faith speaks thus: Do not say in
thine heart, Who shall ascend to the heavens? that is, to bring
Christ down;
7 or, Who shall descend into the abyss? that is, to bring up
Christ from among [the] dead.
8 But what says it? The word is near thee, in thy mouth and in
thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach:
9 that if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and
shalt believe in thine heart that God has raised him from among
[the] dead, thou shalt be saved.
10 For with [the] heart is believed to righteousness; and with
[the] mouth confession made to salvation."[/quote]
The heart which believes is made right or righteous, no?
Wasn't the human's kind of righteousness what Eve practiced when
she doubted the goodness and Love of God -- didn't trust His
Words? On her own, she sought to become like God, not
realizing God's intention was to impute or give more and more to
her and Adam if they did well by having faith in God and doing
as they had heard?
[quote]John 6 "28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do,
that we might work the works of God?
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God,
that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.
After all these years, 51 this week..I found out that if I have
to "do it" I am lost....I cannot change myself or become "good
enough"...if we could, He would not have had to die for us!!
It took a while for me to get the message...I can't, that is why
I need a Saviour. :)[/quote]
The question is if we have found out yet how God can change us
so "we might work the works of God"? Asking if we can do it is
not the question. The question is if we will allow God to work
through us, isn't it?
I was reading more horrible news from Syria last week. A photo
I saw made my heart feel as if it were bleeding. I've been
praying for that country for years; and it seems as if my
prayers are not being answered. All I can hope, Helen, is that
God has already made me righteous enough that my prayers there
are being answered. And perhaps even if I'm not that righteous,
He may still be merciful and answer them.
I think I am "mostly righteous." God has corrected many of my
flaws; and I'm not being vain -- I can see how He has done it in
others too, and made them righteous.
#Post#: 2966--------------------------------------------------
Re: About Prayers
By: Helen Date: August 21, 2015, 2:06 pm
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Good post Kerry. I see the two levelled thing. 1) our position
in Christ..declared righteous...done.
2) Our daily walk in the light which allows God to correct and
lead us in His path. ( And thine ears shall hear a word behind
thee, saying, This is the way, walk ye in it, when ye turn to
the right hand, and when ye turn to the left.)
We can never do 2 without being convinced of 1....and, our
testimony will be as nothing, worthless if 2 isn't working in
our life. When I am falling down on 2, I have to go back to 1,
if not, 2 will stifle the life out of me and depress me. People
who only get hold of 1 and stick there, tend to live loose
unfruitful lives. People who follow after 2 tend to become
selfrighteous. Like everything else..there must be balance.
I think the enemy is always working to knock us off balance in
one camp or the other.
As for the prayer aspect.." The effectual fervent prayer", to
me I see this prayed in and through His Spirit , (1) nothing of
us or flesh, therefore we pray His heart into the situation.
Just my thoughts.....
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