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#Post#: 2385--------------------------------------------------
Re: How much water is there in the whole world?
By: Amadeus Date: June 25, 2015, 10:33 am
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[quote]Gaffer:
I see your point and agree; but I'm not completely sure if the
sentence on Adam and Eve couldn't have been fixed if they had
repented. Yes, they "died" when they ate of the forbidden
fruit; but isn't everything possible with God? [/quote]
[font=courier]Everything is possible in a sense, but God is
unable to change or go against His own Word. But did not God
allow for a way out for Adam and Eve, or for mankind? Wasn’t a
way out, a way of redemption, included in God’s plan for
mankind? [/font]
[quote]Gaffer:
They both tried to shift the blame, not wanting to admit wrong
doing. Can God forgive us if we don't repent but instead try
to blame others?[/quote]
[font=courier]I would say that God cannot forgive us unless we
go through the Door provided within His plan. Jesus, effectively
is that Door. We must choose to walk through it, but an
improperly adorned vessel will not allowed to continue such a
journey to the most favorable ending.[/font]
[quote]Gaffer:
Take the concept of "mortal sin." The concept there is knowing
something is a sin and persisting in it. It can be forgiven, of
course. But that sentence of death is still hovering over the
person unless he repents. [/quote]
[font=courier]What a person loses if he never repents is the
possibility of Life, of an end to the death he is already in…
“from him that hath not shall be taken away that which he hath”
(from Matt 25:29). He possesses the possibility of Life, the
promise of Life as a steward, but that possibility, that
promise, is cast away if he never does what is necessary to
claim it. He must move from steward to join-heir with Christ.
[/font]
[Quote]Amadeus:
Starting with the first men, men have built their houses of
confusion so extensively that understanding the truth from
amongst the clutter has become more difficult. God has cut us
some slack.[/quote]
[quote]Gaffer:
He has also blinded eyes. I believe if God knows men would
reject the truth were it shown to them, He blinds them to it.
Sins of ignorance are more easily forgiven than coming to know
the truth about something and then rejecting it.[/quote]
[font=courier]
Giving a person “eyes to see” when it is known that person will
simply cast away or ignore or reject what he sees would be a
good reason, it seems, to “blind” those eyes or to leave them
blind. [/font]
[Quote]Amadeus:
Yes, God has left more clues and message for men than written
scripture. Even the written scripture can be a problem for a
person who does not recognize what some men may have done with
it, either intentionally or unintentionally.[/quote]
[quote]Gaffer:
The prophet warned about it, saying the Word of God could be a
snare; but to the pure, all things are pure, and to the impure
all things are impure. [/quote]
[font=courier]
There were lots of ‘would be’ or ‘false’ prophets in the OT.
That is true now as well. People do like to have their ears
tickled and there always to be someone willing to do the
tickling.[/font]
[Quote]Amadeus:
What we read in the Bible, if our reading (understanding) is
correct can frequently be confirmed elsewhere in God’s creation
if we are paying attention.[/quote]
[quote]Gaffer:
How symbols are used can also be studied. I am convinced that
the prophets are usually consistent in how they used metaphors.
It took me a long time to study Revelation since I had to stop
so often to look up how other books used words. Among other
things, I remember looking up "grass." [/quote]
[font=courier]I’ve been a Bible student for a long time, but…
early on I wasn’t as serious as I should have been and then I
lost some of what I had. As a result now I study usually better,
but it takes at times very long for things to stick. I have gone
through Revelation both just reading it and carefully studying
it, but still much eludes me and also some things that I thought
I understood have turned out to be wrong. What is it that we
need to know?[/font]
[Quote]Amadeus:
Or… it can be a very final crushing. [/quote]
[quote]Gaffer:
Well, yes, and that goes back to the principle that you can't
make decisions for people -- even God doesn't do that -- but you
can force them to make a decision. If they take a fall as a
result of pride, it's up to them how to respond. Pride, if
carried to its worst extreme, becomes suicidal, I think, where
the person would prefer to die than to admit he was wrong. I
think Pharaoh felt so humiliated he wanted to die; and he was so
evil he didn't care how many Egyptians he took with him.
[/quote]
[font=courier]He apparently really did not care. This is not
unusual in people, especially those in positions of power. The
disturbing evil of a child fed continuously can become the
horrendous evil of an adult. [/font]
[quote]Gaffer:
I would not agree with someone if what he decided was immoral
and affected other people; but when someone makes a decision, I
don't feel guilty agreeing with him and carrying on from there.
Paul said it was even okay for Christians to get over their
spouses in some cases.
1 Corinthians 7:15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him
depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such
cases: but God hath called us to peace.
Similarly Jesus told his disciples if a city did not receive
their message to leave it and shake the dust off their feet.
Sometimes we need a way of settling things. Even when people
don't do what I want, I think the best thing to do may be to
agree with them. Then I can move on. Why fret over people if
they don't care about you? I was fretting over this forum and
about people who don't want to join it. I was wrong. They
don't owe it to me to join here. But I can stop fretting by
agreeing with them. [/quote]
[font=courier]Perhaps not to actually agree with them, but at
least to indicate that the battle is over with a dismissing
statement.[/font]
[quote]Gaffer:
Yet for some, I know my honesty is hard to take. Some people
would prefer to ignore inconvenient facts. They prefer to
present a whitewashed version of things. [/quote]
[font=courier]For some people if you are not completely for them
you are completely rejected. They lump you into the common enemy
basket even though line for line you don’t really fit there.
Some try to do the same thing with God, but in that case they
usually make Him fit into their basket.[/font]
[quote]Gaffer:
I think hope is good if it's reasonable, but there is a false
form of hope too which fantasizes unrealistically and which
leads to continuing disappointment. When people let you know
by word or deed of their intentions, then I think it's
unrealistic to hope they'll change their minds. It may even be
a sin since God gave them the right to make decisions for
themselves -- and I would hoping they didn't have free will
unless it pleased me. [/quote]
[font=courier]This thing of hoping or wishing another person did
not have a free will could really be a stumbling block.[/font]
#Post#: 2397--------------------------------------------------
Re: How much water is there in the whole world?
By: Kerry Date: June 26, 2015, 11:26 pm
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[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=265.msg2385#msg2385
date=1435246387]
Everything is possible in a sense, but God is unable to change
or go against His own Word. But did not God allow for a way out
for Adam and Eve, or for mankind? Wasn’t a way out, a way of
redemption, included in God’s plan for mankind? [/quote]I think
they "died" the moment they ate of the fruit -- on the spot. I
think they had Light bodies, being clothed in the Light of God;
and when they sinned, the Light went out. Their physical
bodies and souls could still be walking around; but they were
effectively dead -- as in "Let the dead bury the dead."
[quote]I would say that God cannot forgive us unless we go
through the Door provided within His plan. Jesus, effectively is
that Door. We must choose to walk through it, but an improperly
adorned vessel will not allowed to continue such a journey to
the most favorable ending.[/quote]
I don't know your views on that subject totally; but it sounds
as if you may hold a view based on New Testament passages alone,
a view which contradicts Old Testament passages. The Old
Testament says animal sacrifice is not required, says the proper
sacrifice is a contrite heart -- says that God forgives anyone
when he repents.
What it doesn't say is that God fixes all the effects of sins
when we repent for them. Yet we are forgiven by God when we
repent.
We are also told the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the
world. That is a Jewish idea too. They say that the ram
Abraham saw in the thicket had existed from before Eden.
[quote]What a person loses if he never repents is the
possibility of Life, of an end to the death he is already in…
“from him that hath not shall be taken away that which he hath”
(from Matt 25:29). He possesses the possibility of Life, the
promise of Life as a steward, but that possibility, that
promise, is cast away if he never does what is necessary to
claim it. He must move from steward to join-heir with Christ.
[/quote]What then is the Tree of Life that Adam and Eve could
have eaten of?
[quote]I’ve been a Bible student for a long time, but… early on
I wasn’t as serious as I should have been and then I lost some
of what I had. As a result now I study usually better, but it
takes at times very long for things to stick. I have gone
through Revelation both just reading it and carefully studying
it, but still much eludes me and also some things that I thought
I understood have turned out to be wrong. What is it that we
need to know?[/quote]
I'd say Revelation is an instruction book about what we need to
do.
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear
the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are
written therein: for the time is at hand.
22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the
sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Surely it connects to other things, but I'd say its primary role
is meant to tell each reader things so he can do certain things.
Those who read it trying to discern the future without looking
for commandments in it that they should keep will not benefit
much.
[quote]He apparently really did not care. This is not unusual in
people, especially those in positions of power. The disturbing
evil of a child fed continuously can become the horrendous evil
of an adult. [/quote]
It also seems his people did not care, following him blindly.
[quote]Perhaps not to actually agree with them, but at least to
indicate that the battle is over with a dismissing
statement.[/quote]
What happened to the people of Israel who said, "Would God that
we had died in the land of Egypt! or would God we had died in
this wilderness!"
God pardoned them at the intercession of Moses; and the sentence
was then that they would get what they asked for. That was the
mercy they received. ". . . as ye have spoken in mine ears, so
will I do to you."
Agreeing with people is one way of ending conflicts. God also
"agreed" with the people when they wanted a king.
"Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto
thee. . . ." Let them have things their way.
Some things can drag on too long and people can waste too much
effort trying to convince others into doing "the right thing."
If people make free will decisions, why argue about it? Why
not agree and move on?
[quote]For some people if you are not completely for them you
are completely rejected. They lump you into the common enemy
basket even though line for line you don’t really fit there.
Some try to do the same thing with God, but in that case they
usually make Him fit into their basket.[/quote]So isn't it
easier for me to accept their judgment of me instead of longing
or pleading with them to change their minds? Don't people have
the right to reject me? I think they do -- and for any reason
or even for no reason. They don't owe me explanations or
justifications.
With some people I may struggle trying to sort out
misunderstandings if I think that's the source of the rejection.
Then there are times I give up and say enough is enough. I
know where I stand in their eyes, and it's a relief sometimes to
discover that someone doesn't really like me. If they say nice
things to me at times trying to get my approval, I may waste
lots of time and energy on them and never get anywhere. Perhaps
people fear revenge if they said, "I don't like you" to me --
but my revenge would be to say, "That's okay" and walk away. If
I annoy them by being around, I'd like to know that. I don't
have to be around them annoying them.
In this world, it would be a very strange thing if everyone
liked me. That's not going to happen, and I don't expect it to
happen. It should not upset me in the least then if I find
that some people don't like me. I can be grateful for the
people who do and forget about the people who don't. I can use
my time and energy better too. After all, Jesus didn't tell
Peter to feed all the animals -- just the sheep. Peter was not
told to feed the wolves. So I think we should put our efforts
where we know realistically they might make a difference.
[quote]This thing of hoping or wishing another person did not
have a free will could really be a stumbling block.[/quote]Yes,
so why not accept their decisions and say, "Okay, if that's the
way you want it."
I believe that all those in Israel who fell in the wilderness
will eventually be saved. Some people need to try things their
way first. If they fail, they can evaluate things again.
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