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#Post#: 604--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Edwin Date: December 27, 2014, 11:18 am
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Thank you Danger Mouse for your many and vaired comments, which
brought to minf the following verses of Scripture.
Eph 1:13 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the
gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with
the promised Holy Spirit,
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I
who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in
the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and
gave himself for me.
Col 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ
in God.
Blesss you.
Edwin.
#Post#: 605--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Edwin Date: December 27, 2014, 11:28 am
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Further to the above.
--------------------------------
Once Saved Always Saved, with questions
Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in
God.
Please tell me how it is possible to loose that which is hidden
with Christ in God.?
2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things;
nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed
and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed
to Him until that Day.
Please explain why these words of Paul cannot possibly apply
also, to all Christians?, are you saying that He is not able to
keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Be very
careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God
a liar.
Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from stumbling, And
to present you faultless Before the presence of His glory with
exceeding joy,
Are you saying that He is not able to keep me from stumbling,
And not able to present me faultless Before the presence of His
glory with exceeding joy, Be very careful how you answer this
question,, you could be calling God a liar.
Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those who
fear Him, And delivers them
I find the above Scripture verse to be both encouraging, and
comforting, I hope you do also
Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has
begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus
Christ;
Tell me is He able to do this, or not, is it dependant on me
giving Him my permission?
What about the following verses.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and
there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient
times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall
stand, And I will do all My pleasure,
Am I, a mere human able to prevent God's will being done?
Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they
follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never
perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
Eternal life is everlasting life, and as Jesus says above, they
who have it "shall never perish". How then can you possibly say
that they will perish, when Jesus says they will not?
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to
those who love God, to those who are the called according to His
purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be
conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified,
these He also glorified.
Note that the word "glorified", is written in the past tense,
because from the Divine view point in eternity, it has already
happened, do not try to understand it, but take God at his word.
A real genuine article born again Christian is eternally secure.
God has said so, I believe Him, and that's good enough for me.
Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the
one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own
will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of
all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it
up at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone
who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;
and I will raise him up at the last day."
Jhn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal
life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Note: Jesus says "I will raise him up at the last day." 4 times
in this chapter, I think He means it don't you?
Please tell me how anyone can read the above six verses, and
still maintain that, "Salvation can be lost"? The Fathers will
is that Jesus should not lose any of those who come to Him. Is
Jesus able to do His Fathers will, yes, or no? This is not a
case of you not losing your salvation, but of Jesus not losing
your salvation. You carn't , and He wont.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the
Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the
name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal
life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the
Son of God.
Note. see my comment on "Eternal life", above, also note Eternal
life is what you have now if you are a real Christian, and not
something you may get later on if you behave yourself properly.
Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that
He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.
Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
See my comment on "Eternal life", above.
1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you
completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be
preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or
on Him?
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall
tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or
nakedness, or peril, or sword
Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day
long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*
Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors
through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor
angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor
things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
Would you agree than the expression "nor any other created
thing," would include myself,? if so then it is impossible for
me to be able to lose my salvation, and thereby "separate myself
from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or
on Him?
Edwin.
#Post#: 607--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 27, 2014, 4:06 pm
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[quote author=Edwin link=topic=26.msg605#msg605 date=1419701290]
Once Saved Always Saved, with questions
Col 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in
God.
Please tell me how it is possible to loose that which is hidden
with Christ in God.?[/quote]
Have we died and been resurrected yet? That is what Paul is
discussing.
[quote]2Ti 1:12 For this reason I also suffer these things;
nevertheless I am not ashamed, for I know whom I have believed
and am persuaded that He is able to keep what I have committed
to Him until that Day.
Please explain why these words of Paul cannot possibly apply
also, to all Christians?, are you saying that He is not able to
keep what I have committed to Him until that Day. Be very
careful how you answer this question,, you could be calling God
a liar. [/quote]I think maybe we should be careful since Paul
writes so tentatively without authority. "I am persuaded. . .
." I am persuaded of the same thing; but just because I trust
God to do His part does not mean I trust even myself to do my
part. I should be on guard at all times against the wiles of
the Devil. God can keep me, yes, if I continue to heed the Voice
of God and not the voices of darkness.
[quote]Jud 1:24 Now to Him who is able to keep you* from
stumbling, And to present you faultless Before the presence of
His glory with exceeding joy,
Are you saying that He is not able to keep me from stumbling,
And not able to present me faultless Before the presence of His
glory with exceeding joy, Be very careful how you answer this
question,, you could be calling God a liar.[/quote]You are
saying that just because God will fulfill His part of the
bargain, that there is no way we can fail ourselves? We should
not ignore other passages which say emphatically that some of
God's servants will be punished severely for disobedience.
[quote]Psa 34:7 The angel* of the LORD encamps all around those
who fear Him, And delivers them
I find the above Scripture verse to be both encouraging, and
comforting, I hope you do also
Phl 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has
begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus
Christ;
Tell me is He able to do this, or not, is it dependant on me
giving Him my permission?[/quote]
It depends on our continuing to permit God to work within us.
If we were robots, what would there be about us for God to love?
The verse from Psalms says God does that for those who fear
Him. That's a condition.
[quote]What about the following verses.
Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old, For I am God, and
there is no other; I am God, and there is none like Me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient
times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall
stand, And I will do all My pleasure,
Am I, a mere human able to prevent God's will being
done?[/quote]
Then perhaps we should believe everyone will be saved since it's
written that God is not willing that any should perish. If God
wants everyone to be saved, why wouldn't they be?
[quote]Jhn 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and
they follow Me.
Jhn 10:28 "And I give them eternal life, and they shall never
perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
Jhn 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than
all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 "I and My Father are one."
Eternal life is everlasting life, and as Jesus says above, they
who have it "shall never perish". How then can you possibly say
that they will perish, when Jesus says they will not?[/quote]
You just provided a Scripture that says salvation does depend on
our obedience. Sheep follow their shepherd. The shepherd isn't
doing everything. The sheep must hear and obey.
[quote]Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for
good to those who love God, to those who are the called
according to His purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be
conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the
firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called;
whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified,
these He also glorified.
Note that the word "glorified", is written in the past tense,
because from the Divine view point in eternity, it has already
happened, do not try to understand it, but take God at his word.
A real genuine article born again Christian is eternally secure.
God has said so, I believe Him, and that's good enough for
me.[/quote]
Have you noticed how your beliefs are based so much on Paul's
writings? Peter warned us about doing this.
This way of thinking says nothing ever was wrong. You are
saying we were never in any danger. We have been "saved" from
all eternity. How could anyone be saved if he's been saved even
before he was born? If that is so, how could all of creation
groaned "until now"?
[quote]Jhn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me,
and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.
Jhn 6:38 "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own
will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
Jhn 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of
all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it
up at the last day.
Jhn 6:40 "And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone
who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life;
and I will raise him up at the last day."
Jhn 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Jhn 6:54 Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal
life, and I will raise him up at the last day.
Note: Jesus says "I will raise him up at the last day." 4 times
in this chapter, I think He means it don't you?[/quote]It is not
yet the "last day" for me. I must say I have not been "saved"
yet.
[quote]Please tell me how anyone can read the above six verses,
and still maintain that, "Salvation can be lost"? The Fathers
will is that Jesus should not lose any of those who come to Him.
Is Jesus able to do His Fathers will, yes, or no? This is not a
case of you not losing your salvation, but of Jesus not losing
your salvation. You carn't , and He wont.[/quote]You are
assuming you are "saved" already. From what? Death? You
will not die? You are already resurrected into eternal life?
[quote]1Jo 5:11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us
eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1Jo 5:12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the
Son of God does not have life.
1Jo 5:13 These things I have written to you who believe in the
name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal
life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the
Son of God.
Note. see my comment on "Eternal life", above, also note Eternal
life is what you have now if you are a real Christian, and not
something you may get later on if you behave yourself
properly.[/quote]Why would it be important for us to "continue
to believe" if we already have been saved?
[quote]Jhn 17:2 "as You have given Him authority over all flesh,
that He should* give eternal life to as many as You have given
Him.
Jhn 17:3 "And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the
only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
See my comment on "Eternal life", above.[/quote]
Should is not past tense.
[quote]1Th 5:23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you
completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be
preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.
Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on me, or
on Him?[/quote]
This tells us it depends on God finishing His work. Above, you
claim it's already been finished.
Paul is also using the word "may" to indicate it is his wish
that these things happen. If they had already happened, and all
the people he was writing to were already saved, why bother
writing to tell them everything? Why give them a list of things
to do which include:
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in
Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
Why did Paul advise them to do those things? Could they really
"quench the Spirit" and frustrate the Will of God? Could they
fail to "hold fast that which is good" if God's Will is that
they hold fast?
[quote]Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?
Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or
nakedness, or peril, or sword
Rom 8:36 As it is written: "For Your sake we are killed all day
long; We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."*
Rom 8:37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors
through Him who loved us.
Rom 8:38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor
angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor
things to come,
Rom 8:39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing,
shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in
Christ Jesus our Lord.
Would you agree than the expression "nor any other created
thing," would include myself,? if so then it is impossible for
me to be able to lose my salvation, and thereby "separate myself
from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
[/quote]
We can separate ourselves. We will be judged according to our
deeds and words. So it is written many times. We will not be
judged by what God has done for us. You seem to want to think
we can avoid taking responsibility for anything; and that
contradicts many Scriptures which say we will be held
accountable. If we were such worthless worms, why would God
love us or even want to love us? We may start off as worthless
worms, but if we allow God to do His work without opposing Him,
we can do good works which show His Power to change us.
There is no external force that acts on us by which we will be
judged. If we want to remain connected to Jesus, Jesus will see
to it we do. He won't fail us; but we can fail if we use our
free will incorrectly.
[quote]Once more, is He able to do it, or not? does it depend on
me, or on Him?[/quote]
Both. A covenant depends on both parties doing what they agreed
to do. God is faithful and will do His part; that is not in
question. The question is if we are faithful; and we ought not
think we can do anything we please and still be saved. We are
not free to break the covenant and then expect God to keep His
end of things. Covenants don't work like that.
Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he
be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God,
and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was
sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the
Spirit of grace?
I honestly do not understand why people want to derive this
"once saved, always saved" doctrine. What good does it do them?
If I sin, I know I need to repent. That is what I need to do.
I shouldn't tell myself what I did doesn't matter because I've
already been "saved" and will be saved no matter what I do or
don't do.
What we do matters. God created man to have dignity. That is
why He created man in His own image and likeness. The more we
learn how to make right decisions, the more we are choosing to
become like God; and if we choose properly, God can reward us by
imparting part of His Glory to us. God is not going to impart
His Glory to people who continue to sin and claim to be saved
already. God wants us to take advantage of what He offers us,
to become truly better people, filled with love for both God and
our fellow man. We can become something worth saving. By the
grace of God, we can be transformed into something worth saving.
Let us not spin our wheels then and ignore the task of being
transformed daily by thinking we have already attained
everything. Even Paul said he had not attained it all.
Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either
were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may
apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Nor had he died completely and been raised into immortality when
he wrote, "I die daily."
1 Corinthians 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour?
31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our
Lord, I die daily.
We ought to build our beliefs around some of the Scriptures
while neglecting others. We stand in jeopardy every hour just
as Paul did. We are not perfect yet; but if our faith does not
fail us and if we continue to follow our shepherd, we can rely
on him to bring us safely home. If we want security in
knowing we are on the right track, we can rely on what John
wrote:
1 John 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love
of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
#Post#: 608--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 28, 2014, 12:59 am
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IMO we're all on partially corrupted 'paper chases' if do not
appreciate that the words which we pluck in order to
substantiate whether or not one can gain and then lose salvation
were all written by mortal men doing their best to 'create God
in their own image' based on their differing perceptions of
God's mind and intent.
I could just a well do the same by saying that my perception of
God's mind and intent is that salvation which cannot be
inadvertently lost, can be deliberately abandoned.
But I am not 'told' such things by God, other than through a
glass darkly, simply because when God 'speaks' to mortal man he
does not do so in ways that are audible or visible to mortal
ears and eyes.
Therefore we cannot be 100% certain in respect of what we each
think ourselves to perceive.
One therefore will pronounce that salvation, once gained, cannot
be lost, whereas another will pronounce that it can, whereas
another will pronounce that we cannot be certain.
And I also guess that another might well recognise the 'babel'
factor of 'confusion', being God's way of nullifying man's
propensity to build 'Towers of Theological dogma reaching
upwards towards God'
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