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#Post#: 338--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 9, 2014, 12:58 pm
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[quote author=Ivor1 link=topic=26.msg331#msg331 date=1418144008]
I have no problem with God doing whatever he does it's just I
find his helpers a little odd at reveling in another's
chastisement. We ease the pain of others and share it if
possible
i never expect homeless or drug addicts to be accountants who
are clever with money or they would not be there, if they buy
drugs or alcohol with money for food then so be it. I make
enough financial mistakes in my own life... how much more can I
expect from others?
Oddly it may seem I expect very little of others simply because
the branch in my eye is so big that I'm just able to observe
life on my own and I'm blessed with insight on the occasions
that God see fit impart some wisdom to me
for the love of the greater number there may be need of a
separation of the unthankful... a chasm too wide to get over
where any refreshment enjoyed by the thankful is out of reach of
the unthankful where they may stew in unthankfulness or become
thankful
[/quote]I helped someone who was both a drunkard and a drug
addict way too much. I was way too gentle with him. He later
murdered a woman; and I reckon I share some of the guilt for
that. I can't write it off as his making "financial mistakes."
I should have known better. I still consider him a friend, and
it is one of my greatest sorrows that he is in prison and will
be the rest of his life. I hope you do not think I am relishing
any of that.
I do not know how things would have turned out if I had been
more severe with him; but I know what I did didn't work.
I would also urge you to reconsider about how much to expect
from others. That can be a form of vanity. I learned that the
hard way. It was part of the reason I kept "helping" him. It
made me feel good about myself since I kept telling myself I was
being loving and forgiving. I was really being selfish and
vain. It was so easy for me to feel superior to him; but I
don't anymore. I think sometimes we may be enjoying feeling
superior if we don't expect much from others. Others are made
in the image and likeness of God -- why should we accept them
being third rate when God gave them the potential to be first
rate? Yes, there was something first rate in my friend even
though he was a drunk and an addict; but I was enjoying feeling
superior too much to demand he live up to his potential.
#Post#: 339--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Poppy Date: December 9, 2014, 1:49 pm
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[quote]Can salvation be lost?[/quote]
I don't believe it can.
We may go away from God just as the prodigal son went away from
his father and just as the prodigal's father was still his
father so God is still our Father even when we go away from him,
for he never leaves us.
In my early days as a Christian, God gave a personal prophesy
in tongues which interpreted says, " I am his till the end of
time." I believe that is also true for anybody who has received
Jesus into their hearts.
#Post#: 358--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Alfie Date: December 10, 2014, 12:37 pm
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[quote author=Edwin link=topic=26.msg219#msg219 date=1417797449]
Can salvation be lost?
These verses are sometimes used to show that salvation can be
lost, but this of course is not so.
Edwin.
[/quote]
rather than coming to an answer "so quick"
thought and pondering may lead us to look at what was said ; as
opposed to what we feel
if salvation is to be lost ....
if salvation is to be lost ; that one must have it first
if you has salvation; then one has the holy spirit
and if ...
and if one loses the holy spirit
then one has lost salvation
if ones loses the holy spirit
one must have had the holy spirit
if one had the holy spirit then one must have had salvation
if one had salvation then one had the holy spirit
if one had the holy spirit then lost it
then one would lose salvation
ok; what we are describing here is the unpardonable sin
parable of the sower
with the attachment below
i ask the following questions
who is a christian?
who has salvation?
who has the holy spirit?
where does a person who thinks he is a christian lose salvation?
where is the holy spirit( blasphemed, not heard, walked away
from) ?
now i haven't offered an answer here
but instead have turn the coin over and look at the other side
if salvation could be lost
then we would say that sin was unpardonable and IMO ; more
pondering is needed
#Post#: 361--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Helen Date: December 10, 2014, 4:10 pm
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Yes...I think we all agree it cannot be lost. It was never
"ours" in the first place...salvation is of The Lord!
#Post#: 362--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 10, 2014, 7:14 pm
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Al wrote: if salvation is to be lost ....
if salvation is to be lost ; that one must have it first
if you has salvation; then one has the holy spirit
and if ...
and if one loses the holy spirit
then one has lost salvation
if ones loses the holy spirit
one must have had the holy spirit
if one had the holy spirit then one must have had salvation
if one had salvation then one had the holy spirit
if one had the holy spirit then lost it
then one would lose salvation
ok; what we are describing here is the unpardonable sin
The obvious [size=14pt]flaw in that reasoning is in the 3rd line
up when the Holy Spirit is referred to as "it". the Holy Spirit
is the third person of God. God who said he would never leave us
and God does not lie.
Is there unpardonable "sin" (past tense) or is the term
"sinning" (in the the act of in the present tense)? Could it be
that all sin is forgivable but the present deliberate"sinning"
where the Holy Spirit cannot become a sharer so he has to
somehow shield himself from our current actions. he does not
leave us but may choose to not gaze upon us
The Holy Spirit will never leave a true believer. This is
revealed in many different passages in the New Testament. For
example, Romans 8:9 tells us, “…if anyone does not have the
Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” This verse very
clearly states that if someone does not have the indwelling
presence of the Holy Spirit, then that person is not saved.
Therefore, if the Holy Spirit were to leave a believer, that
person would have lost the saving relationship with Christ. Yet
this is contrary to what the Bible teaches about the eternal
security of Christians. Another verse that speaks to the
permanence of the Holy Spirit’s indwelling presence in the life
of believers is John 14:16. Here Jesus states that the Father
will give another Helper “to be with you forever.”
The fact that the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer is
also seen in Ephesians 1:13-14 where believers are said to be
“sealed” with the Holy Spirit, “who is a deposit guaranteeing
our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's
possession—to the praise of his glory.” The picture of being
sealed with the Spirit is one of ownership and possession. God
has promised eternal life to all who believe in Christ, and as a
guarantee that He will keep His promise, He has sent the Holy
Spirit to indwell the believer until the day of redemption.
Similar to making a down payment on a car or a house, God has
provided all believers with a down payment on their future
relationship with Him by sending the Holy Spirit to indwell
them. The fact that all believers are sealed with the Spirit is
also seen in 2 Corinthians 1:22 and Ephesians 4:30.
Prior to Christ’s death, resurrection, and ascension into
heaven, the Holy Spirit had a “come and go” relationship with
people. The Holy Spirit indwelt King Saul, but then departed
from him (1 Samuel 16:14). Instead, the Spirit came upon David
(1 Samuel 16:13). After his adultery with Bathsheba, David
feared that the Holy Spirit would be taken from him (Psalm
51:11). The Holy Spirit filled Bezalel to enable him to produce
the items needed for the tabernacle (Exodus 31:2-5), but this is
not described as a permanent relationship. All of this changed
after Jesus’ ascension into heaven. Beginning on the day of
Pentecost, the Holy Spirit began permanently indwelling
believers (Acts 2). The permanent indwelling of the Holy Spirit
is the fulfillment of God’s promise to always be with us and
never forsake us.
While the Holy Spirit will never leave a believer, it is
possible for our sin to “quench the Holy Spirit” (1
Thessalonians 5:19) or “grieve the Holy Spirit” (Ephesians
4:30). Sin always has consequences in our relationship with God.
While our relationship with God is secure in Christ, unconfessed
sin in our lives can hinder our fellowship with God and
effectively quench the Holy Spirit’s working in our lives. That
is why it is so important to confess our sins because God is
“faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us
from all unrighteousness” (1 John 1:9). So, while the Holy
Spirit will never leave us, the benefits and joy of His presence
can in fact depart from us
[/size]
#Post#: 388--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 12, 2014, 2:48 pm
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[quote author=Edwin link=topic=26.msg219#msg219 date=1417797449]
Can salvation be lost?
These verses are sometimes used to show that salvation can be
lost, but this of course is not so.
Subject: Heb Ch 6 vs 4-6,
As the title of this letter indicates, this group of believers
were all Jews who had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, and
were as a result being so severely persecuted by the majority of
Jews who did not accept Jesus, that they were giving serious
consideration to returning back to established Judaism, until
such times as opposition had died down, and then return back
again to believing in Jesus as before.
This they are told is an impossibility, however, verse 9 is
intended to give them encouragement,
First read verse 9 before you read vs 4-6, and you will see that
the writer is quite sure that what is referred to in vs 4-6 has
not happened, but there is a fear that it might happen.
Verse 9 of course is the verse that is always omitted when
critics quote vs 4-6.
Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become
partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of
the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 if they fall away,[fn2] to renew them again to
repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of
God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things
concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we
speak in this manner. [/quote]
I would not assume that "being enlightened" means "being saved."
To whom much is given, much is required. We are held
accountable for what we have received. If we receive Light and
understanding from God and fail to act on it, God cannot excuse
us for sinning in ignorance. At that point, we are sinning
willfully and knowing what we're doing. That is dangerous
business.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth
it not, to him it is sin.
Something may be a sin for you that is not a sin for me, and
vice versa depending on what Light we have received.
[quote]Yes but what about "he who endures to the end shall be
saved".
Please allow me to add something that often comes up whenever,
"O S A S", is under discussion, and there is a reference to Heb
6:4-6, which some interpret as indicating that salvation can be
lost.
This of course is not so, because if it were so it would make
all the verses that support, "O S A S", untrue, and this cannot
be the case, as the Word of God does not disagree with itself,
and what's more cannot be made to do so.
The writer is stating at vs 4-6, that this course of action is
an impossibility,,, and that is all that is being said here.
I hope that this is of help to you.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
[/quote]We should count our chickens before they're hatched.
We are "being saved" now as God works through us. We will be
saved if we continue and endure. We should not talk about
"being saved" as if we are already safe and secure in Heaven.
The true safety and security we can have now is by seeing the
Word of God being made manifest in us as we walk in the Light of
God. If we do not feel that security, we need to check
ourselves and get back on track not trying to talk ourselves
into believing all is well when the Spirit informs us it is not.
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep
his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments,
is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God
perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk,
even as he walked.
What does "enlightened" mean? It means receiving the Divine
Light. Then it is up to us to obey by walking the Light shed
on our path.
Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto
my path.
#Post#: 389--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 12, 2014, 3:40 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=26.msg388#msg388
date=1418417308]
What does "enlightened" mean? It means receiving the Divine
Light. Then it is up to us to obey by walking the Light shed
on our path.
Psalm 119:105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto
my path.
[/quote]
That is one scripture that I often couple with three others such
as :-
Psalm 119:9 Wherewithal shall a young man cleanse his way? by
taking heed thereto according to thy word.
2 Timothy 3:15 From a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith
which is in Christ Jesus.
Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean
not unto thine own understanding.
To the last of which I add "nor unto that of any other man"
#Post#: 390--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 12, 2014, 5:01 pm
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I agree.
Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of
man, in whom there is no help.
That does not mean, of course, that other people can't be used
by God to steer us in the right direction. Especially when we
are young, having godly parents who encourage us to seek God
can nudge us closer to finding that Light. This is true of
adults too of course. Otherwise why would have the adult
Apostles preached the Gospel and told men to seek God?
One of my favorite passages in the Bible is what Paul wrote to
Timothy:
2 Timothy 1:5 When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith
that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and
thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded that in thee also.
We may all need help from others; and holy books and holy men
serve a purpose; but the goal should be that perfect heart that
hears and obeys. I am convinced that Eunice and Lois were
people who nudged Timothy in that direction just as Paul was
nudging him.
#Post#: 391--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 12, 2014, 8:31 pm
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I agree, and their reward is huge that they are named in
scripture as an example to us
#Post#: 392--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 12, 2014, 9:26 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=26.msg390#msg390
date=1418425302]
The goal should be that perfect heart that hears and obeys. I
am convinced that Eunice and Lois were people who nudged Timothy
in that direction just as Paul was nudging him.
[/quote]
I guess you are right.
Maybe ensuring that one's heart "hears and obeys" is 'active'
and being "nudged by others" is 'passive'.
Yesterday, for instance, I was nudged by a hymn writer.
Often other such inspired words speak to me more powerfully than
do words from the Bible.
I had just walked back home from the centre of our town and had
taken a shortcut through our churchyard and said a prayer for
all those (including me) who might be mourning the loss of a
loved one.
And the inspired words of the following hymn spoke volumes to my
heart:-
[center]O Love that wilt not let me go,
I rest my weary soul in thee;
I give thee back the life I owe,
That in thine ocean depths its flow
May richer, fuller be.
O light that foll’west all my way,
I yield my flick’ring torch to thee;
My heart restores its borrowed ray,
That in thy sunshine’s blaze its day
May brighter, fairer be.
O Joy that seekest me through pain,
I cannot close my heart to thee;
I trace the rainbow through the rain,
And feel the promise is not vain,
That morn shall tearless be.
O Cross that liftest up my head,
I dare not ask to fly from thee;
I lay in dust life’s glory dead,
And from the ground there blossoms red
Life that shall endless be.[/center]
[center]
HTML http://i784.photobucket.com/albums/yy123/artisational/Steven_zpsf9255b88.jpg[/center]
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