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#Post#: 219--------------------------------------------------
Can salvation be lost?
By: Edwin Date: December 5, 2014, 10:37 am
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Can salvation be lost?
These verses are sometimes used to show that salvation can be
lost, but this of course is not so.
Subject: Heb Ch 6 vs 4-6,
As the title of this letter indicates, this group of believers
were all Jews who had accepted that Jesus was the Messiah, and
were as a result being so severely persecuted by the majority of
Jews who did not accept Jesus, that they were giving serious
consideration to returning back to established Judaism, until
such times as opposition had died down, and then return back
again to believing in Jesus as before.
This they are told is an impossibility, however, verse 9 is
intended to give them encouragement,
First read verse 9 before you read vs 4-6, and you will see that
the writer is quite sure that what is referred to in vs 4-6 has
not happened, but there is a fear that it might happen.
Verse 9 of course is the verse that is always omitted when
critics quote vs 4-6.
Hbr 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become
partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Hbr 6:5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of
the age to come,
Hbr 6:6 if they fall away,[fn2] to renew them again to
repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of
God, and put Him to an open shame.
Hbr 6:9 But, beloved, we are confident of better things
concerning you, yes, things that accompany salvation, though we
speak in this manner.
Yes but what about "he who endures to the end shall be saved".
Please allow me to add something that often comes up whenever,
"O S A S", is under discussion, and there is a reference to Heb
6:4-6, which some interpret as indicating that salvation can be
lost.
This of course is not so, because if it were so it would make
all the verses that support, "O S A S", untrue, and this cannot
be the case, as the Word of God does not disagree with itself,
and what's more cannot be made to do so.
The writer is stating at vs 4-6, that this course of action is
an impossibility,,, and that is all that is being said here.
I hope that this is of help to you.
Every blessing.
Edwin.
#Post#: 241--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Ezra Date: December 6, 2014, 1:55 pm
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Salvation is the GIFT of eternal life. It is also the GIFT of
Christ within the believer. It is also the GIFT of the Holy
Spirit within the believer. It is also the GIFT of God within
the believer. It is also the GIFT on the New Birth.
Since these are all gifts of God grace, it is impossible for
salvation to be "lost". What is possible is for sinners to be
self-deceived and believe they are saved because of something
they have done. It is "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE
HAVE DONE" but "according to God's mercy" that we are saved (Tit
3:5).
#Post#: 245--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Poppy Date: December 6, 2014, 3:20 pm
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=26.msg241#msg241 date=1417895742]
Salvation is the GIFT of eternal life. It is also the GIFT of
Christ within the believer. It is also the GIFT of the Holy
Spirit within the believer. It is also the GIFT of God within
the believer. It is also the GIFT on the New Birth.
Since these are all gifts of God grace, it is impossible for
salvation to be "lost". What is possible is for sinners to be
self-deceived and believe they are saved because of something
they have done. It is "NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE
HAVE DONE" but "according to God's mercy" that we are saved (Tit
3:5).
[/quote]
Well said Ezra.
#Post#: 249--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Helen Date: December 6, 2014, 6:44 pm
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Amen...good post Ezra.
#Post#: 305--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 7, 2014, 4:56 pm
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What do we do with Matthew 18:23-35?
Matthew 18:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a
certain king, which would take account of his servants.
24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him,
which owed him ten thousand talents.
25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to
be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and
payment to be made.
26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying,
Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and
loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his
fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid
hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that
thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought
him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he
should pay the debt.
31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very
sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O
thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou
desiredst me:
33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy
fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors,
till he should pay all that was due unto him.
35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye
from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their
trespasses.
#Post#: 309--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Helen Date: December 7, 2014, 11:08 pm
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[quote]quote D.M. And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to
the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto
him.[/quote]
To me...what was due was THANKFULLNESS...he had been forgiven,
but did not forgive others in return. His Master cast him out
of his sight until he finally saw how good he had had it...and
he "got the message." It was only until. I believe there will be
an "until" for any of us that fall short and are slow learners.
More reson to tend the garden of our hearts, and be sure they
are soft and remain thankful.
" In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in
Christ Jesus concerning you."
#Post#: 318--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 8, 2014, 6:33 pm
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=26.msg309#msg309 date=1418015327]
To me...what was due was THANKFULLNESS...he had been forgiven,
but did not forgive others in return. His Master cast him out
of his sight until he finally saw how good he had had it...and
he "got the message." It was only until. I believe there will be
an "until" for any of us that fall short and are slow learners.
More reson to tend the garden of our hearts, and be sure they
are soft and remain thankful.
" In everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in
Christ Jesus concerning you."[/quote]The ungrateful will burn in
the lowest hell. What else can be done for them to correct
them? If God tries Love and Mercy and they do not see that
God's purpose was one of Love, what can be done? I'm sure we
all remember that Jesus said those who are forgiven much also
love much -- at least, they should love much. If someone is
told he's forgiven and fails to understand love, he hasn't
forgiven himself. Others can forgive him, but he still doesn't
understand love and is still an unloving wretch inside who can't
forgive himself.
My belief is that such a person craves punishment and God will
"deliver" him to the tormentors since that is what he wants,
having judged himself.
I believe if we really understand Divine Forgiveness, Mercy and
Love, we want everyone to have it. It can't be something I
want only for myself.
You're quite right about the "until" too. Sometimes
prepositions can mean a lot. We learn here that punishment is
not eternal; and we learn too that if we reject the easy way of
correcting sin, there is a harsher way.
#Post#: 327--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 9, 2014, 8:47 am
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Irony in the scriptures is seldom lost... because they are as
alive today as when first written so we too can fall over them
and flat onto our faces. A scripture on forgiveness leads us to
where?
Danger Mouse wrote: The ungrateful will burn in the lowest hell.
What else can be done for them to correct them?
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his
fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid
hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that
thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought
him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he
should pay the debt.
Maybe we should forgive them ...again...7 times??? Love brings
people to thankfulness, punishing them does not.
#Post#: 329--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Kerry Date: December 9, 2014, 10:07 am
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[quote author=Ivor1 link=topic=26.msg327#msg327 date=1418136443]
Irony in the scriptures is seldom lost... because they are as
alive today as when first written so we too can fall over them
and flat onto our faces. A scripture on forgiveness leads us to
where?
Danger Mouse wrote: The ungrateful will burn in the lowest hell.
What else can be done for them to correct them?
28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his
fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid
hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that
thou owest.
29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought
him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he
should pay the debt.
Maybe we should forgive them ...again...7 times??? Love brings
people to thankfulness, punishing them does not. [/quote]Did it
work with that servant whom the king forgave?
I think you missed my point: God will punish us if we fail to
be forgiving after receiving forgiveness from Him. I was not
saying I wanted such people punished. I was saying sometimes
God decides Love and Mercy aren't working. He then resorts to
harsher methods to bring people around.
Deuteronomy 32:13 He made him ride on the high places of the
earth, that he might eat the increase of the fields; and he made
him to suck honey out of the rock, and oil out of the flinty
rock;
14 Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and
rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys
of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape.
15 But Jeshurun waxed fat, and kicked: thou art waxen fat, thou
art grown thick, thou art covered with fatness; then he forsook
God which made him, and lightly esteemed the Rock of his
salvation.
16 They provoked him to jealousy with strange gods, with
abominations provoked they him to anger.
17 They sacrificed unto devils, not to God; to gods whom they
knew not, to new gods that came newly up, whom your fathers
feared not.
18 Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast
forgotten God that formed thee.
19 And when the Lord saw it, he abhorred them, because of the
provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what
their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation,
children in whom is no faith.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God;
they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will
move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will
provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the
lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and
set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
We are also admonished not to give pearls to pigs. There are
people who interpret kindness and mildness as weakness; and if
you give them something valuable, they see it as weakness and
will turn to attack you. If we know someone is like that, we
ought not tempt to sin. It's like giving money to a drug
addict. You may want them to buy food and pay their rent when
you give them money, but they go spend it on drugs. We can be
helping make some people worse by naive "acts of kindness." I
know -- I've done it -- and I regret it. And I also know I
can't blame the drug addicts and drunkards for all their
misdeeds, not when I helped them do them. I can't point the
finger at them accusingly not when I too am guilty.
#Post#: 331--------------------------------------------------
Re: Can salvation be lost?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 9, 2014, 10:53 am
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I have no problem with God doing whatever he does it's just I
find his helpers a little odd at reveling in another's
chastisement. We ease the pain of others and share it if
possible
i never expect homeless or drug addicts to be accountants who
are clever with money or they would not be there, if they buy
drugs or alcohol with money for food then so be it. I make
enough financial mistakes in my own life... how much more can I
expect from others?
Oddly it may seem I expect very little of others simply because
the branch in my eye is so big that I'm just able to observe
life on my own and I'm blessed with insight on the occasions
that God see fit impart some wisdom to me
for the love of the greater number there may be need of a
separation of the unthankful... a chasm too wide to get over
where any refreshment enjoyed by the thankful is out of reach of
the unthankful where they may stew in unthankfulness or become
thankful
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