DIR Return Create A Forum - Home
---------------------------------------------------------
Religious Convictions
HTML https://religiousconvictions.createaforum.com
---------------------------------------------------------
*****************************************************
DIR Return to: Kerry's
*****************************************************
#Post#: 2254--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Piper Date: June 5, 2015, 3:11 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]My ash tray runneth over . . . ;) :)[/font]
#Post#: 2263--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Kerry Date: June 6, 2015, 12:26 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=258.msg2254#msg2254
date=1433535067]
[font=trebuchet ms]My ash tray runneth over . . . ;) :)[/font]
[/quote]I was looking for a serious conversation here; but it
seems as if that is not going to happen.
#Post#: 2268--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Piper Date: June 6, 2015, 5:54 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=258.msg2263#msg2263
date=1433568403]
I was looking for a serious conversation here; but it seems as
if that is not going to happen.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]No, I MEANT my mind is rather busy and my
thoughts perhaps are too many for one ash tray. (And maybe I'm
confused and being a bit facetious, as a result. Sorry.)
Anyway, I'm not sure I understand; if nothing happens when we
"place a thought in a jar (ashtray)" then why are we attempting
to do it? I honestly don't see how it can be done.
You began with "I believe ideas can take up space" which is the
opposite of what F. J. Sheed teaches in his book. He states:
[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]Our ideas are not material. They
have no resemblance to our body. Their resemblance is to our
spirit. They have no shape, no size, no color, no weight, no
space. Neither has spirit whose offspring they are. But no one
can call it nothing; for it produces thought, and thought is the
most powerful thing in the world— unless love is, which spirit
also produces.[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]You also stated: "Do ideas have mass? Not
physical mass, but they have mental mass."
I don't understand the concept of mental mass. "Mass" is a
grouping of individual parts or elements that compose a unified
body of unspecified size or quantity. This is speaking of
physical matter. What is mental does not have shape, size,
color, weight; how could it take up space?
I guess I'm not following how "placing" thoughts in an ashtray
proves that ideas have mass.
To my understanding, space is simply a place for matter to
spread itself. Ideas are not matter; they exist in a spiritual
realm--until there is energy produced to convert them to
physical reality. THEN they might have mass and take up space
and have shape, size, color, weight, etc.
[/font]
[quote] we can make what is true in the mental space true also
in the physical.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Sometimes. Not always. I might have an idea
for a house made of stone. But if I have no stone available--no
house. The idea remains only an idea.
Am I completely lost? :-[
[/font]
[quote]Should I go on? What direction should I take? Practical
or theoretical? I think I prefer the practical. People can
try things and see what results they get. Then they can judge
the theory for themselves. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]First, clearly state the theory. I assume
the theory is that ideas take up space and have mass?
Yes, we visualize things before doing them. Sorry, I'm not
following how all these things relate.
Anyway, what things do you want us to try? Perhaps if I know
that, I'll pick up on what point you're trying to make. [/font]
#Post#: 2272--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: bradley Date: June 6, 2015, 7:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
I dont know if this is an example of you are talking about
Kerry, but will state it to see if you agree.
What people perceive to be ghosts cannot interact with humans
much, for being spirit, they have no physical bodies, and yet
there are many examples of ghosts who can turn lights on and off
and move objects some, so despite having no physical bodies,
they can interact to some degree with the physical, if they are
trained or self taught to do so.
#Post#: 2274--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Kerry Date: June 6, 2015, 7:34 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=258.msg2268#msg2268
date=1433588052]
No, I MEANT my mind is rather busy and my thoughts perhaps are
too many for one ash tray. (And maybe I'm confused and being a
bit facetious, as a result. Sorry.) Anyway, I'm not sure I
understand; if nothing happens when we "place a thought in a jar
(ashtray)" then why are we attempting to do it? I honestly
don't see how it can be done. [/quote]
So did you try it? No. At this point, there may be no point
to trying it if you're that convinced you couldn't do it.
[quote]You began with "I believe ideas can take up space" which
is the opposite of what F. J. Sheed teaches in his book. He
states: [/quote]And his evidence for his statement is what?
[quote]You also stated: "Do ideas have mass? Not physical
mass, but they have mental mass."
I don't understand the concept of mental mass. "Mass" is a
grouping of individual parts or elements that compose a unified
body of unspecified size or quantity. This is speaking of
physical matter.[/quote]
I was using the scientific definition. Wikipedia
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass:
In physics, mass is a property of a physical body which
determines the strength of its mutual gravitational attraction
to other bodies, its resistance to being accelerated by a force,
and in the theory of relativity gives the mass–energy content of
a system.
[quote]What is mental does not have shape, size, color, weight;
how could it take up space? [/quote]
I frankly consider that quote from Sheed pure nonsense. My
thoughts contain all those things.
[quote]I guess I'm not following how "placing" thoughts in an
ashtray proves that ideas have mass.[/quote]
I did not say placing a thought by itself would prove ideas have
mass.
[quote]To my understanding, space is simply a place for matter
to spread itself. Ideas are not matter; they exist in a
spiritual realm--until there is energy produced to convert them
to physical reality. [/quote]
Of course, they're not matter.
[quote]THEN they might have mass and take up space and have
shape, size, color, weight, etc.[/quote]
By this type of logic, things in visions could not have shape,
size, color, etc. The people who measured things in visions as
John and Ezekiel would have been hallucinating since things in
the spiritual realm have none of the properties of matter.
[quote]Sometimes. Not always. I might have an idea for a house
made of stone. But if I have no stone available--no house. The
idea remains only an idea. [/quote]I told you there were
limits. We don't live a world where each person gets to make
things the way they want. In our own mental universes, we
could design a stone house out of stones we don't have; but in
the physical world, we still need to find the stones. That is
because in this world, making stones appear out of thin air is
not the way things are generally done.
[quote]First, clearly state the theory. I assume the theory is
that ideas take up space and have mass? [/quote]
Yes, and I also told people headaches are frequently caused by a
collision of conflicting ideas. That is something people could
research for themselves the next time they start to get a
headache.
I'm beginning to feel a slight headache myself right now. I
want to be polite to you on one hand but on the other hand I
feel you're being dogmatic and dismissive and may deserve some
rudeness back.
[quote]Yes, we visualize things before doing them. Sorry, I'm
not following how all these things relate.[/quote]
You are not visualizing things in space when you visualize
things?
When God created things, don't you think He had the exact spots
in space where they would appear? He imagined all the
qualities they were -- and all those attributes including
spatial coordinates existed in His Mind first. Then they
became true also in the world.
Things which come from Heaven are true first in Heaven. Then
they become true on earth.
[quote]Anyway, what things do you want us to try? Perhaps if I
know that, I'll pick up on what point you're trying to make.
[/quote]One thing is easy enough to try. On a mostly clear sky
where there are cumulus clouds of different sizes, pick one of
them and stare at it and tell it to go away. Clouds are always
changing anyway, so don't jump to conclusions too fast. If
the other clouds are still there but the one you picked goes
away, you succeeded. I used to do that as a teen.
There is a way that matter itself follows the mental patterns of
people. If other people are busy imagining the opposite,
chances are you'll fail. But if you're alone with the
clouds, no one will notice if you make one go away. No one is
exerting any faith in that cloud staying there.
Too bad the other Nancy isn't around. At Faith Forum, we
tracked weather off the coast of Africa. If it looked like the
beginning of a hurricane, we would pray about it and imagine it
gone and will it to be gone. I can tell you it's possible --
but once the idea that a storm is out there and coming, it's
much, much harder -- maybe impossible. Too many have faith in
the idea that a hurricane is coming. They are putting their
mental energies into creating it by fear and that only adds to
the force of the hurricane. Humans may not be able to
"create" something out of nothing, but our thoughts do influence
things. The thoughts of man exist on a mental field that
overlays the physical; and the two need to be reconciled.
Matter itself will tend to "obey" thought patterns whenever
possible.
What are the limits of positive thinking? As a rule, I'd say
positive thinking is based on a naive principle of magic. The
idea there is if you can visualize something, it will come true
eventually. Positive thinking has a slightly different on it
-- that if you believe firmly something will happen, it will.
Now many people who start with positive thinking have success
with it for a time. Then they crash. People who practice
magic using that principle may also have success for a while and
then crash dreadfully.
Why? Well, not everything is possible. If I see a mansion and
say, "I want to live there" and then visualize it or start
trying to use positive thinking, I am effectively putting
myself into opposition with other people -- notably the people
who already live there. I'm asking the universe to obey me and
do something to get those people out of their house so I can
have it. That's black magic. It may sound like "positive
thinking" to me when I'm doing it; but I'm effectively cursing
the other people by saying their free will doesn't matter.
Ever notice how things look different in dreams? Say you're in
a town that you know in a dream. You know what town it is, but
you also know it doesn't look like in the physical world. The
reason is simple: How things look in dreams is easier to
change than in the physical world, and how people feel and think
about a place will show up in dreams. Those "things" do exist
in time and space but non-physically. They also exert
influences on the physical world -- just as people's visualizing
a hurricane is going to add force to the hurricane. Matter
itself tries to come into agree with things on the astral plane.
If you can "create" something first on the astral plane and have
it "come true" in the physical world, you could say that "thing"
came out of the sea. The Bible mentions creatures coming up
out of the sea; and that means what was first imagined on the
astral plane is finally "taking shape" and "becoming true" in
the physical world. Most of the time, it's bad stuff.
Another exercise people can do is to call for all the bad ideas
and feelings they ever sent out into the world to return to
them. People may doubt they have bits and pieces of their
minds scattered about -- but I think they do. And it weakens
them mentally and spiritually.
I wouldn't advise calling for the bad ideas that are in the
abyss. Those should be left alone. God knows when the time
to let them out. God has set things up to protect us from some
of the things we invented so they will not come to us if they
would tempt us beyond what we can bear. We can't blame God or
the Devil. But when we are ready to repair the damage we
created, down comes the hedge.
#Post#: 2275--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Kerry Date: June 6, 2015, 8:25 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bradley link=topic=258.msg2272#msg2272
date=1433592319]
I dont know if this is an example of you are talking about
Kerry, but will state it to see if you agree.
What people perceive to be ghosts cannot interact with humans
much, for being spirit, they have no physical bodies, and yet
there are many examples of ghosts who can turn lights on and off
and move objects some, so despite having no physical bodies,
they can interact to some degree with the physical, if they are
trained or self taught to do so.
[/quote]I don't know enough to answer your question with
certainty; but my impression is that ghosts cannot do such
things on their own. They have to have a human around -- a
human with telekinetic abilities. A human that gives off
energy that the ghost can use.
A human in a living body has the "working equipment" that acts
as an interface between the spiritual and the physical. A
ghost is missing that.
Indeed I rather doubt if ghosts would "appear" without a human
around. Much of the time, it seems as if first they create a
"presence" that creeps the humans out. If anyone wants to try
it -- and I don't advise it -- but holding a seance or just
talking about ghosts or using an Ouija board or doing some of
the other things people do is enough to get a ghost's attention.
People may say, "Le'ts stop talking about these things, I'm
getting creeped out." Yes, sometimes the "presence" is so
strong, it makes the hairs stand up. That's a pretty good
indication the ghost is interacting with the electrical field
the human.
Some mediums talk about ectoplasm. Yes, I think that's right.
The "astral substance" comes out of the medium and then a spirit
can enter it. Ghosts probably use the same method but
without the humans being aware they're letting anything (call it
ectoplasm or whatever) out of their bodies.
I don't think what I call a ghost would move anything by
itself. A spirit could. To me, a ghost is the soul of someone
that wandered away from the spirit. So to me, it's doubtful
if the spirit moving things is the "owner" of the soul that is
the ghost. Odds would be some other spirit came along, saw the
ghost and started playing tricks with it.
Spirits by themselves can affect electricity easily since they
run human bodies by creating minute electrical flows in
neurons. You can often guess a woman is pregnant before she
knows herself by increased electrical disturbances around her.
It's a complex subject. We know, for example, that most
poltergeists are connected with adolescents. And the objects
they send flying are almost never going towards the person --
no, they fly not directly out but still sideways and out.
I've also run into two women with the same thyroid problem --
and both had telekinetic abilities that were out of their
conscious control. When I met the first one, it had stopped;
but the second one -- she was visiting one day and outside on
the front porch talking to her boyfriend. I had a bag of
onions on a nail in the kitchen; and all of a sudden the bag of
onions came flying off the wall. It didn't fall -- it came out
into the room. And there's no way all the plastic straps
holding it in place snapped.
There was third woman I knew -- and strange things happened
around her too -- but she didn't have that thyroid problem. We
both saw a loaf of bread tilt on a shelf and fall off -- and the
loaf had only a tiny bit of it hanging over the edge of the
shelf. At least three-quarters of it was on the shelf. It
tilted up at about a 30 degree angle and slid off. I thought
she did it, and she thought I did it. Or was it a spirit?
It could have been a spirit. She told me an odd story one day.
She was driving home when her car just shut off on its own.
Then something started shaking the car up and down. Then that
stopped, and her car worked then. I said, "Are you pregnant"
thinking maybe that explained it. She said, no but she thought
perhaps she was -- and didn't know if she was or not when that
happened. She found out she wasn't when she went to the
doctor's the next day. The only explanation I had was that a
spirit read her mind wondering if she was pregnant, stopped the
car to see -- a rude thing to do -- shook the car angry that
she wasn't and then left.
People may believe every pregnancy is planned by God; but I
don't. If someone is under the protection of Heaven, yes, I
believe that. I'd say well over 99% are planned by Heaven; but
there are exceptions.
Sorry I can't give you a more definite answer. I do feel
confident though that ghosts are trying to interact with the
physical world -- and have problems. On their own though --
without a spirit -- I doubt they can -- and I doubt too they
hang around that long. Have you ever noticed most hauntings
are less than 500 years old. Souls seem to expire if separated
from spirit -- and my guess is that ghosts can stay alive longer
by feeding on the human energy they can get by creating fear.
There may be another kind of "ghost" that isn't really a soul or
spirit. It seems to be like a "recording" of some event that
gets absorbed by a place or object -- and if a human comes along
and activates it, it gets projected out and looks real like a
holograph. The sequence of events is always the same, over and
over. Is that the soul reliving events over and over -- or it
just a holographic memory being replayed? I'd have to rely on
intuition when I was experiencing it.
#Post#: 2276--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Piper Date: June 6, 2015, 1:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote]I'm beginning to feel a slight headache myself right now.
I want to be polite to you on one hand but on the other hand I
feel you're being dogmatic and dismissive and may deserve some
rudeness back.
[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Well, ouch.
Kerry. Yes. I tried to put a thought in a jar, but if, as you
said, nothing happens-- which it didn't-- how am I to know if I
accomplished anything? What evidence do I have?
There is a difference between being 'dogmatic and dismissive'
and not understanding concepts.
This is all new to me, AND conflicting with the book I was
studying. So, there's an example of your conflicting ideas
spinning around in my head.
I will read over things again. Meanwhile, all I will say is
there is a definite difference between what I can do in 'dreams'
and what I can do 'here'. One example: In a dream, I once found
myself in a garage, on the floor, playing with toy cars, of all
things. I found I was able to move them with my mind. It was
great fun. Had them racing all over. Never accomplished
anything similar 'here'. The rules seem very different here.
But, I'll try the cloud thing. Only after asking God if it is
permissable.
The record tornado a few years back? I prayed to God very
fervently for protection (as with the horses and the hail) and
the tornado turned an obvious, sharp angle north when it reached
the small town close to me. I wondered if that resulted from my
prayer, but if so, just like the hail thing, I would credit God,
not my own power. (I'm not being rude, just stating my way of
thinking. Any of these 'things' in this realm have occured
following prayer. Definite pattern.)[/font]
#Post#: 2277--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Piper Date: June 6, 2015, 1:37 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Well . . . I did imagine it would be great to
have a border collie, and two showed up on my property within
the same week. One male, one female, and they didn't know each
other. Strange.
I imagined it would be fun to have a baby squirrel, and later
that same day I heard a noise outside, and there was a baby
squirrel, frozen between my dog and . . . a cat! Nobody moved,
and I simply walked over and picked the little one up. Why
neither dog nor cat attacked I have never understood.
Attributed these things to God, as well.[/font]
#Post#: 2283--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Piper Date: June 7, 2015, 12:26 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
Ideas can cast auras that are false; you seem to have the idea
there is an argumentative tone to my posts, when in reality, the
questions I ask and the comments I make are me trying to sort
things out. Patience?
Thinking on it, I would agree the things we imagine have shape,
size, and color--not the thought itself, but what exists within
the thought. Dreams have all number of things within them that
have shape, size, and color. I'm not sure about weight. One of
the joys in dreams is the weightlessness; nothing holds you
down, it seems. There is an ethereal quality to dreams that is
hard to define. Although there is a distinct difference that
resembles 'weight' or 'heaviness' in a vision of evil compared
to the ethereal weightlessness of 'good' or 'godly' dreams and
visions. The aura is absolutely different. The oppresive aura
of the presence of true evil is like a tangible weight,
assaulting every sense. There is a lightness of being
surrounding that which is good. Polar opposites.
Was thinking on senses: Vision is infinitely sharper in dreams.
Hearing is . . . yes, there are varying volumes; loud noises in
dreams have awakened me. Taste is possible; I've had food in
dreams and then awakened amazed at the memory of taste. Touch,
yes; I've felt things in dreams I've never felt physically, such
as the sensation of going through walls and windows. Smell is
the one sense I don't recall in dreams, but then my sense of
smell is rather dull physically, as well.
If ideas take up space, can I hold one in my hand? No, I can
not. My ideas, my thoughts are my own; I hold them in my mind,
in my spirit; they are part of me. They are mine and no one
else's, save God, unless I am willing to share by communicating.
We can guess what someone's thoughts or ideas might be by the
manifestations a person might present as a result of their
thoughts or ideas; for example it's often easy to discern
prejudice.
Yet, there is the problem that I have experienced, on rare
occasion, hearing a 'voice' speak to me, but not hearing it with
my ears. This, in what I've come to believe is an altered state
between sleep and awakening-- someone planting a message
directly in my mind, very clearly. And, I've shared dream
states and thought parallels with my husband, as though there
were a link between our minds, but again sleep somehow enhances
these abilites, and they fade in the waking world. It's my
guess that love opens doorways in our subconscious, and when we
sleep we can access things that get blocked in waking life.
If ideas take up space, then where do they exist? If the answer
is the 'astral plane', then perhaps I don't understand the
astral plane. And the astral plane is separate from the
physical world, to my understanding, although perhaps it
overshadows the physical world, exerting influence on it.
No, I don't understand the astral plane, or know for certain it
exists. What evidence is there? Is it a name for where I go in
my dreams?
I'm thinking there are 'layers' of reality, but it's not
something I can explain. [/font]
#Post#: 2285--------------------------------------------------
Re: Ideas
By: Kerry Date: June 7, 2015, 4:20 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=258.msg2283#msg2283
date=1433697990]
Ideas can cast auras that are false; you seem to have the idea
there is an argumentative tone to my posts, when in reality, the
questions I ask and the comments I make are me trying to sort
things out. Patience?
Thinking on it, I would agree the things we imagine have shape,
size, and color--not the thought itself, but what exists within
the thought.[/quote]
Within the thought? Where is the thought that shapes, sizes and
colors can be put "inside" them?
[quote]Dreams have all number of things within them that have
shape, size, and color. I'm not sure about weight. One of the
joys in dreams is the weightlessness; nothing holds you down, it
seems. There is an ethereal quality to dreams that is hard to
define. Although there is a distinct difference that resembles
'weight' or 'heaviness' in a vision of evil compared to the
ethereal weightlessness of 'good' or 'godly' dreams and visions.
The aura is absolutely different. The oppresive aura of the
presence of true evil is like a tangible weight, assaulting
every sense. There is a lightness of being surrounding that
which is good. Polar opposites.[/quote]
I'd say it is accumulated negative "thoughts" injected into
matter that make it "heavy."
[quote]If ideas take up space, can I hold one in my hand? No, I
can not. [/quote]
I can, and I've done it. But if you are sure you cannot, then
you cannot. Some things are true because that's the way we want
them to be.
[quote]My ideas, my thoughts are my own; I hold them in my mind,
in my spirit; they are part of me. They are mine and no one
else's, save God, unless I am willing to share by communicating.
We can guess what someone's thoughts or ideas might be by the
manifestations a person might present as a result of their
thoughts or ideas; for example it's often easy to discern
prejudice.[/quote]And where is your mind? You use spatial
terms there, so I ask where is your mind?
You also have a narrow definition of "self." If you are
willing to be "the other," then you can understand "the other."
Many of my thoughts are not my own. I make a claim some may
think audacious -- that I have the mind of Christ. That mind is
aware of many things I couldn't be on my own. When thoughts
come to me from that mind, I know they aren't mine although they
become part of mine when I understand them and incorporate them.
The Spirit of Christ hovers over things and sees things. If
action from me is wanted, then I may be told something so I can
act appropriately.
John 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he
will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of
himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and
he will shew you things to come.
And what is communication? Communication involves space and
two beings with minds. If you want someone to know what one of
your ideas is, you send him a copy. If he receives it and
duplicates it in his mind accurately, then he knows what you
wanted him to know. That's "understanding." It's also a
shared reality.
But communication is so degraded, people now believe words are
necessary. People abused telepathy and lost it for the most
part.
[quote]Yet, there is the problem that I have experienced, on
rare occasion, hearing a 'voice' speak to me, but not hearing it
with my ears. This, in what I've come to believe is an altered
state between sleep and awakening-- someone planting a message
directly in my mind, very clearly. And, I've shared dream
states and thought parallels with my husband, as though there
were a link between our minds, but again sleep somehow enhances
these abilites, and they fade in the waking world. It's my
guess that love opens doorways in our subconscious, and when we
sleep we can access things that get blocked in waking
life.[/quote]
Yes, basically that is what I experienced at the Church of
Scientology when the man "planted" an idea in my "head." Most
people cannot tell the difference between their own ideas and
ideas that others send them -- many people also imagine their
own ideas are being put into their minds by God. That sort of
thing would be acceptable if everyone knew what was going on;
but often there is an intention to deceive or manipulate.
As for the shared dreams, that's an example of what I called a
"shared reality."
Those psychic abilities are usually turned off in waking life
because of how men have abused them.
[quote]If ideas take up space, then where do they exist? If the
answer is the 'astral plane', then perhaps I don't understand
the astral plane. And the astral plane is separate from the
physical world, to my understanding, although perhaps it
overshadows the physical world, exerting influence on it.
[/quote]
Yes, it overshadows it -- as do all the planes. Heaven being
up and hell down are ways of experiencing the shifts in
awareness -- and ways of navigating them too -- but they all
occupy the same space.
[quote]No, I don't understand the astral plane, or know for
certain it exists. What evidence is there? Is it a name for
where I go in my dreams?[/quote]Yes. It is non-physical but
you can observe it exists in space.
What evidence is there that the physical world exists? The
only evidence you can give is that you experience it and believe
it's real. You can't prove that logically either way.
What evidence is there that space exists? Now if you really
want to get baffled, space lacks everything we think of as being
real. You can't see it, hear it, taste it, feel it, or smell
it.
Space is imaginary. It exists in our minds. Is it real? I
say yes. I say God imagined it into existence and then gave us
minds so we could "understand" it.
I believe the whole universe continues to exist only because God
is still "imagining" it to -- and being tiny bits of God
ourselves, we too are helping to keep it existing by believing
in it and projecting it. There is no reason that the universe
should continue to exist except that God continues to will it
so. If He ceased to imagine it, it would vanish.
Acts 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as
certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his
offspring.
*****************************************************
DIR Previous Page
DIR Next Page