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#Post#: 2147--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: Piper
Date: May 31, 2015, 3:34 pm
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Isn't our whole life a prayer, in a sense? Is there ever a
moment we are not conscious of God, or at least running back to
Him when we've made our mistakes? Are we not all seeking God's
favor, regardless of our methods? I think we are not so
unalike. If only we could focus on the heart.
When I pray the Rosary, I believe my voice joins the voices of
countless others, all over the world, at any given time, all
praying in unity for intercession on behalf of God's children.
It seems a powerful thing.
Of course, I'm not saying there is no place for individual
prayer and petition to God. I speak casually to God,
intimately, as well, in bits and pieces throughout the day.
There is, as I see it, a time for both.
Guided prayer should not be seen as mindless reciting. It can
be just as spirit-filled as all prayer to God. It is, as
always, a matter of heart and soul.
I don't mean to push, only to seek understanding. There is too
much misunderstanding between Christians, and it builds walls.
It chases people from the faith. This should not be so.
#Post#: 2148--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: Piper
Date: May 31, 2015, 3:51 pm
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--- Quote from: Twinc link ---
>
>
>
> it always surprises me how pagans/heathens can and do get
their prayers, wishes etc fulfilled/answered just as quick and
sometimes quicker - is it true the devil answers just as quick -
twinc
>
>
--- End Quote ---
I know a man from Iraq. We women of my bible study at the time,
of course, spoke with him about Jesus. He was skeptical, young,
and a bit foolish. He once told me, "Ahh, God! I pray to
Jesus, and get no job. I pray to Satan and get job right away."
"Oh, Kherallah," I said, "No, no, no, you don't want to do that!
Better to wait on God, then to be handed your wishes and lose
your soul, don't you think?"
I've wondered if Kevin might not be instantly healed if I prayed
to Satan. Yes, such unsavory things enter my mind. I've been
fairly desperate. I dare not test such things. Better to wait
on God if it takes a lifetime.
#Post#: 2149--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: Piper
Date: May 31, 2015, 4:17 pm
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Kerry, isn't your OP basically saying that without repentance,
any prayer, all words, and all the promises of Scripture are
powerless?
If we do not repent of sin, we do not love God or neighbor. If
we can not learn to love, to accept the will of God, we have no
place in the Kingdom. Without love, we would only defile
perfection. We'd be back where we started.
Yet, perhaps, those who are perfected, who've gone before us,
and who understand far greater things than do we-- Jesus, Mary,
the saints alive in heaven-- can pray for us, even when we are
yet sinners, and in this way they intercede on our behalf. I am
still a sinner. I will not lie, even to myself. I would
imagine most of us still sin on occasion. We need prayer. We
need repentance. We need all the power available to us.
That is what I believe.
#Post#: 2152--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: bradley
Date: May 31, 2015, 6:20 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> I never pray without sincerity. Quite honestly, one should
not speak without sincerity, nor write. Can a man lie to God,
deceive God, or can a man only deceive other men?
>
> I believe Jesus taught us a prayer to recite that is commonly
known as 'The Lord's Prayer'. I wonder how often it is
'recited'. I wonder if it is recited in sincerity of heart.
>
> What is 'word wrangling' with a religious affiliation?
Example, please?
>
--- End Quote ---
Religious affiliations all have there own special ways of doing
things, and having the "right" things to say to be considered
righteous. Those things can all be learned and and used even
by those very very far from God. Word wrangling is basically
knowing how to form your words and sentences to come to a
specific desired outcome in your listeners. It can be used for
good and evil, like good for a writer or story teller, it is not
true honest communication, its truly just deceptions as an art
form. Politicians are quite good at it. Its becoming more
common amoung many in this world, and people learn that being
good at it tends to bring power and influence to those good at
it, of course it usually corrupts the mind and soul, if they use
it for ill. There are many wolves amoung the true sheep of the
Lord, the wolves must be good at pretending to be sheep for the
sheep not to scatter.
#Post#: 2154--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: Piper
Date: May 31, 2015, 7:17 pm
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Thanks for your clarification, Brad.
I have not been "out there" much, but I imagine you are right.
There will always be tares among the wheat, wolves among the
sheep.
I think the point of this thread is that words, regardless of
affiliation, will not save us. Words have power and influence.
There is no denying it. Words can build up, words can tear
down; words can start war or bring peace; words can bring hope
or devastation. Ultimately, words, however, can never make us
truly righteous. Even Scripture is meaningless without Spirit.
The devil can quote Scripture.
Righteousness must go much deeper, and that grasped, I believe,
is when we begin to work out our faith, our salvation, with
"fear and trembling."
Our battle is not with flesh and blood. So says Scripture. Our
battle is not among ourselves, although much of it may be within
'self'. We are meant to be each other's strength.
"Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace;
and the God of love and peace shall be with you."
#Post#: 2155--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 31, 2015, 7:36 pm
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--- Quote from: Piper link ---
>
> Kerry, isn't your OP basically saying that without repentance,
any prayer, all words, and all the promises of Scripture are
powerless?
--- End Quote ---
I think so.
--- Quote ---
> If we do not repent of sin, we do not love God or neighbor.
If we can not learn to love, to accept the will of God, we have
no place in the Kingdom. Without love, we would only defile
perfection. We'd be back where we started.
>
> Yet, perhaps, those who are perfected, who've gone before us,
and who understand far greater things than do we-- Jesus, Mary,
the saints alive in heaven-- can pray for us, even when we are
yet sinners, and in this way they intercede on our behalf. I am
still a sinner. I will not lie, even to myself. I would
imagine most of us still sin on occasion. We need prayer. We
need repentance. We need all the power available to us.
>
> That is what I believe.
--- End Quote ---
I think of repentance as being both a major event when we first
resolve to do better and to stop doing the things we already
know are wrong -- and as an ongoing process too as we are
educated by the Spirit about things we didn't used to know were
wrong but we come to see are.
A problem exists in some quarters, and some people are misled by
ministers. There are versions of the "Sinner's Prayer" that do
not even mention repentance and changing for the better.
Consider the following quote from gotquestions.com
HTML http://www.gotquestions.org/sinners-prayer.html:
Question: "What is the sinner's prayer?"
Answer: The sinner's prayer is a prayer a person prays to God
when they understand that they are a sinner and in need of a
Savior. Saying a sinner's prayer will not accomplish anything on
its own. A true sinner's prayer only represents what a person
knows, understands, and believes about their sinfulness and need
for salvation.
The first aspect of a sinner's prayer is understanding that we
are all sinners. Romans 3:10 proclaims, "As it is written, There
is none righteous, no, not one." The Bible makes it clear that
we have all sinned. We are all sinners in need of mercy and
forgiveness from God (Titus 3:5-7). Because of our sin, we
deserve eternal punishment (Matthew 25:46). The sinner's prayer
is a plea for grace instead of judgment. It is a request for
mercy instead of wrath.
The second aspect of a sinner's prayer is knowing what God has
done to remedy our lost and sinful condition. God took on flesh
and became a human being in the Person of Jesus Christ (John
1:1,14). Jesus taught us the truth about God and lived a
perfectly righteous and sinless life (John 8:46; 2 Corinthians
5:21). Jesus then died on the cross in our place, taking the
punishment that we deserve (Romans 5:8). Jesus rose from the
dead to prove His victory over sin, death, and hell (Colossians
2:15; 1 Corinthians chapter 15). Because of all of this, we can
have our sins forgiven and be promised an eternal home in Heaven
- if we will just place our faith in Jesus Christ. All we have
to do is believe that He died in our place and rose from the
dead (Romans 10:9-10). We can be saved by grace alone, through
faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone. Ephesians 2:8 declares, "For
it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not
from yourselves, it is the gift of God."
Saying the sinner's prayer is simply a way of declaring to God
that you are relying on Jesus Christ as your Savior. There are
no "magical" words that result in salvation. It is only faith in
Jesus' death and resurrection that can save us. If you
understand that you are a sinner and in need of salvation
through Jesus Christ, here is a sinner's prayer you can pray to
God: "God, I know that I am a sinner. I know that I deserve the
consequences of my sin. However, I am trusting in Jesus Christ
as my Savior. I believe that His death and resurrection provided
for my forgiveness. I trust in Jesus and Jesus alone as my
personal Lord and Savior. Thank you Lord, for saving me and
forgiving me! Amen!"
Did you pray the sinner's prayer and truly understand and
believe what it teaches? If so, please click on the "I have
accepted Christ today" button below.
They say there are no magic words; and on that I agree with
them, but you can see that that prayer does not mention
repentance. It is trying to use a magical formula. It's trying
to get forgiven without even talking about repenting.
I fully recognize the value of fear at first in leading people
to become better and into choosing to become Christians; but
ultimately, our faith must be in Love, not fear. We should
see the Love in what Jesus did and then love that so much we
want to be like him. Fear of punishment begins to fade.
So is this kind of religion that seems to teach about fear but
not Love effective? Maybe at first, but if we are not willing
to sacrifice and give up our sins as the Spirit shows them to
us, then Jesus is not our Lord. He never was. We were only
seeking to" flee the wrath to come" as John the Baptist put it.
Here is the prayer Campus Crusade used to use:
Lord Jesus, I need You. Thank You for dying on the cross for my
sins. I open the door of my life and receive You as my Savior
and Lord. Thank You for forgiving my sins and giving me eternal
life. Take control of the throne of my life. Make me the kind of
person You want me to be.
I find that prayer strange. It seems to be teaching against
free will -- that Jesus will "take control" of your life and
remove your free will. I find that a mischievous idea. We
need to use our free will to repent. We used it to sin, so we
need to use it to repent.
It seems to me that this kind of introduction to Christianity
could easily confuse people. I don't blame them -- but I do
think the clergy that promotes this kind of thing deserves some
blame by seeming to promise "easy salvation" where you don't
need to do anything yourself. Some people think they'll be
magically fixed after this kind of conversion -- that the urge
to sin will be removed from them so they become instant saints.
When things get rough and they fall into temptation, some
begin to doubt everything. Some abandon Christianity
altogether because the "magic formula" isn't working as they
thought it would.
I have been at meetings when I was young where people were told
that if they merely said they accepted Jesus as their Savior,
that meant they were saved -- guaranteed. I remember one person
saying he didn't "feel saved" -- didn't feel any different --
and people told him he was definitely "saved" if he said those
words -- if he "confessed Jesus" with his mouth. All he needed
to do was have faith in it being true.
Isn't that odd? First they told him he was already "saved"
since he said the words; but then they told him he needed to
have faith that he was already "saved." It was an embarrassing
situation since the man had gone up front to pray at the altar
and everyone was watching. I got the impression he finally
agreed with what they were telling him just to get out of an
awkward situation. I didn't know the man -- he was not from my
church -- so I don't know how that story ended.
The phenomenon of the "Sinner's prayer" in its various forms
still confuses me. It's not in the Bible, to be sure -- so
where did it come from? I think it's older than Pilgrim's
Progress which has this version of it:
God be merciful to me a sinner, and make me to know and believe
in Jesus Christ; for I see, that if his righteousness had not
been, or I have not faith in that righteousness, I am utterly
cast away. Lord, I have heard that thou art a merciful God, and
hast ordained that thy Son Jesus Christ should be the Savior of
the world; and moreover, that thou art willing to bestow him
upon such a poor sinner as I am—and I am a sinner indeed. Lord,
take therefore this opportunity, and magnify thy grace in the
salvation of my soul, through thy Son Jesus Christ. Amen.
No repentance? It's not mentioned. I see groveling before
what is perceived as an angry God. I do not see real
forgiveness that comes when Jesus sees we really want to stop
hurting each other, when we want to stop being selfish and nasty
and feeling guilty and isolated. I don't see faith in the
Power of God to change us for the better if only we are willing
to repent by giving up the very things that injure us and the
people around us.
It looks more like a magical formula to me to "flee the wrath to
come." I can't claim to be perfect; but I do claim to have had
some sins so removed from me, I couldn't be tempted to do them
again. I understand now what pain they caused me and others.
I faced that truth honestly, and I know I wouldn't want to do
the same things again. Why would I? The urge to do those things
are completely gone. They aren't being "covered up." They're
gone, and I say Jesus can remove sin completely from us. It's
more than saying words that pretend he will someday or will save
us from punishment even if we never do repent.
What annoys me is that some ministers seem to be cheating their
congregations of the real peace and relief that follows genuine
repentance. Yes, there can be a struggle to get to the "full"
repentance of a particular thing; but it is possible if we
persist.
#Post#: 2208--------------------------------------------------
Re: Will words save you?
DIR By: Amadeus
Date: June 3, 2015, 8:52 am
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Ah, sincerity! Does not God like us to be sincere and reward us
for it when we are?
People are sometimes very sincere in their errors. For me the
key is to recognize that I have always [probably] had errors in
my way of thinking and acting... even if I have been sincere.
"And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the
Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him." Col
3:17
I remember many years ago the first time I heard those words and
interpretation still often given to them by men I was taken in,
[deceived as I now believe] as many I suppose still are.
Similarly I would guess I am still deceived on other points if
no longer on that one. Thus, growth is still needed! How long?
Until the end of the course which God has given to me.
Doing something in the name, as I believe it, does not mean
simply pronouncing the word, Jesus, with mouth and tongue and
vocal cords. Sincerity is certainly necessary to move toward
God, but cannot a sincere person also move away from God?
Consider a person who is physically dead-mute. Can he ever "do
all in the name of the Lord Jesus"? Does he need to be
physically healed so that he can speak physical words first?
If Jesus is/was the Messiah spoken of in the OT, did anyone
described in the OT ever "do 'anything' in the name" without
knowing the name, Jesus, to be able to speak it with a physical
mouth?
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