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#Post#: 237--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 5, 2014, 10:01 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=25.msg235#msg235
date=1417834183]
Take a look at the passage in context:
1 Thessalonians 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the
Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the
Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
Who is the "we" in that passage? Paul and the Thessalonians?
Or us today?
Again, who is the "we"? If Paul misled them and they were
never caught up, why should we believe this passage might apply
to us or to anyone else?
Small comfort is it never happened as Paul promised them. Let's
also backtrack just a little:
1 Thessalonians 2:19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of
rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus
Christ at his coming?
Can we believe that they were in the presence of the Lord
Jesus Christ at his coming, even as Paul was writing?
[/quote]
I agree there is this obsessive tendency to read the Bible as if
every word is being spoken to 'us today'.
Some will say that's how it should be....take it to the other
extreme and one could need a 'green lettered Bible' for every
passage which was written for future readers.
But then none of the apostolic 'writers' (whoever they were)
knew that what they were writing would eventually get
amalgamated with the 'Old Testament' scriptures to form a new
'Holy Text Book'.
#Post#: 238--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Kerry Date: December 6, 2014, 8:19 am
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=25.msg237#msg237
date=1417838463]
I agree there is this obsessive tendency to read the Bible as if
every word is being spoken to 'us today'.
Some will say that's how it should be....take it to the other
extreme and one could need a 'green lettered Bible' for every
passage which was written for future readers.
But then none of the apostolic 'writers' (whoever they were)
knew that what they were writing would eventually get
amalgamated with the 'Old Testament' scriptures to form a new
'Holy Text Book'.
[/quote]I don't know about this. I think maybe John suspected
his writings would survive. He has an odd phrase in his
Gospel. Most places in the Bible emphasize the oral
transmission of the Gospel -- preaching the Gospel, faith comes
by hearing, etc. John, while not neglecting this oral
transmission, writes:
John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that
Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might
have life through his name.
You've expressed concerns about Revelation; but to me, it's the
most sublime, most inspired book in the New Testament -- other
passages in the New Testament do not come close to the language
and figures of the Hebrew prophets. John says there too:
Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear
the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are
written therein: for the time is at hand.
As for some of the others, especially the books of Paul, I think
perhaps they would have been more cautious in writing if they
had known people would be reading them centuries later and
without the basics that had been taught orally. With Paul, you
can see that he expects his readers to know some things already.
But some things seem geared for everyone:
Matthew 18:19 Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall
agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it
shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name,
there am I in the midst of them.
I put great importance on this verse. In fact, I say the
efficacy of baptism depends on it. I think Jesus "appears the
first time" for someone when he's baptized. While baptism
usually involves physical water, it need not although I approve
of physical baptism a great deal. I do not believe, myself,
that I could have decided on my own to join the Body of Christ.
I think I needed someone who was already in the Body to help.
Perhaps if I lived on a desert island, perhaps, perhaps I could
be joined to the Body of Christ without the help of another
human; but I think submitting myself to another human was a
useful lesson. It's not just me and Jesus. I can't expect
Jesus to show up for me if I despise his other servants. So
for me to join the Body of Christ, I must allow that others are
already in it.
The Real Presence of Christ during Communion also reflects this
principle of there being two or more.
This type of coming, the first coming, is not perceptible to
human eyes or ears of others. Indeed, it is something each
person must seek to perceive for himself -- mostly with the
heart. And we may find it hard to recognize Jesus like the
two on the road to Emmaus; but surely a key is to recognize that
when our hearts burn within us in love, he is in our midst.
Yet that passage is odd also -- and I've misquoted it -- it
really says "our heart" as if they had a heart in common.
What then of the second coming Hebrews speaks of? Again, I
feel safe in interpreting it to mean everyone.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of
many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second
time without sin unto salvation.
Compare that to what John says of those who are born as sons of
God being without sin.
Paul taught this change could occur without people dying; and he
said it had not happened for him.
Philippians 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either
were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may
apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Yes, he was speaking of the resurrection. The spiritual body
can be raised in the resurrection before the death of the
physical body. Indeed I would say resurrection is both a daily
process as well as a dramatic event. If we "die daily" as Paul
wrote about, what died in us is being changed and raised up.
It may not seem like it, but it is. There is also a dramatic
moment too when Jesus "appears the second time" and the process
is finished in the twinkling of an eye.
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