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#Post#: 198--------------------------------------------------
What do these passages from John mean?
By: Kerry Date: December 4, 2014, 2:20 pm
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What do you make of these two passages from the Gospel of John?
I can see that he's talking to different people; but why did he
say to one group that they would seek him later and not find
him?
John 7:32 The Pharisees heard that the people murmured such
things concerning him; and the Pharisees and the chief priests
sent officers to take him.
33 Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you,
and then I go unto him that sent me.
34 Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am,
thither ye cannot come.
35 Then said the Jews among themselves, Whither will he go, that
we shall not find him? will he go unto the dispersed among the
Gentiles, and teach the Gentiles?
36 What manner of saying is this that he said, Ye shall seek me,
and shall not find me: and where I am, thither ye cannot come?
14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe
also in me.
2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I
would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again,
and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be
also.
4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.
#Post#: 203--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Ezra Date: December 4, 2014, 3:10 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=25.msg198#msg198
date=1417724427]
What do you make of these two passages from the Gospel of John?
I can see that he's talking to different people; but why did he
say to one group that they would seek him later and not find
him? [/quote]
Christ said these words to those who did not accept Him as their
Messiah. Thus the Jews would always be seeking for their
Messiah (and today the Orthodox Jews are still waiting for their
Messiah). So instead of Yeshua ha Mashiach, they have been
subjected to a series of false Messiahs ever since His
ascension. See below:
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants#List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants
Of course, since Christ ascended to sit at the right hand of the
Father, only those who believed on Him would go there, therefore
the unbelievers would not see Him.
At the same time, when Christ returns at His Second Coming,
unbelieving Israel will see Him and believe on Him ( Lk 13:35;
Rom 11:26 and many other Scriptures).
#Post#: 208--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Kerry Date: December 4, 2014, 7:36 pm
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=25.msg203#msg203 date=1417727454]
Christ said these words to those who did not accept Him as their
Messiah. Thus the Jews would always be seeking for their
Messiah (and today the Orthodox Jews are still waiting for their
Messiah). So instead of Yeshua ha Mashiach, they have been
subjected to a series of false Messiahs ever since His
ascension. See below:
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Messiah_claimants#List_of_Jewish_messiah_claimants
Of course, since Christ ascended to sit at the right hand of the
Father, only those who believed on Him would go there, therefore
the unbelievers would not see Him. [/quote]When would you say
the people he was talking to would seek him but couldn't find
him?
[quote]At the same time, when Christ returns at His Second
Coming, unbelieving Israel will see Him and believe on Him ( Lk
13:35; Rom 11:26 and many other Scriptures).[/quote]I'm one of
those people who think Jesus already returned.
Luke 13:35 35 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate: and
verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until the time come
when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the
Lord.
I don't see how it fits. This says they will see later and
believe, doesn't it? How does that fit in with seeking Jesus
and being unable to find him? The same would hold true for
Romans 11. When would they seek him but not find him? It is
true, I agree, that they have been seeking King Messiah and have
not found him; but have they been seeking Jesus?
#Post#: 210--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Ezra Date: December 4, 2014, 8:02 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=25.msg208#msg208
date=1417743382]
When would you say the people he was talking to would seek him
but couldn't find him? [/quote]
This would probably be after 70 AD. Up to that point the
apostles offered Christ to the Jews, but they, and He, were
generally despised and rejected. After that point God dispersed
the Jews throughout the world. If we keep in mind that Christ
Jesus came as the King-Messiah of the Jews, then what He was
saying is "You unbelieving Jews will seek King-Messiah after I
am gone, but you will not find me" (not that they would be
seeking for Him personally but for a Messiah). This ties in
with Mt 24:24-26 and His comment on false Messiahs. Thus the
Jews have had a series of false Messiahs come to them.
[QUOTE] I'm one of those people who think Jesus already
returned. [/QUOTE]
Since the Second Coming of Christ is (a) in power and great
glory, (b) with His saints from Heaven, and (c) with His holy
angels after the Great Tribulation, we cannot possibly conclude
that Christ has already come. Satan is firmly in control of
"the world" and all its kingdoms, and sin in abounding more and
more. When Christ returns, He will eradicate sin and evil, and
establish righteousness throughout the world.
[QUOTE] Luke 13:35 35 Behold, your house is left unto you
desolate: and verily I say unto you, Ye shall not see me, until
the time come when ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in
the name of the Lord.
I don't see how it fits. This says they will see later and
believe, doesn't it? How does that fit in with seeking Jesus
and being unable to find him? The same would hold true for
Romans 11.... It is true, I agree, that they have been seeking
King Messiah and have not found him; but have they been seeking
Jesus? [/quote]
No the Jews have not been seeking Yeshua (Jesus) per se
(although there are more and more Messianic Jews who have
believed on Yeshua), but the Orthodox Jews are longing for
Messiah even now. These prophecies will fit in when the Jews
experience "the Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jer 30:7) and long for
Messiah to deliver them. That is when He will come to deliver
them (also at His Second Coming) and redeem and restore Israel.
There are numerous prophecies (OT and NT) which reveal this
truth.
#Post#: 214--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 5, 2014, 2:05 am
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=25.msg210#msg210 date=1417744948]
Since the Second Coming of Christ is (a) in power and great
glory, (b) with His saints from Heaven, and (c) with His holy
angels after the Great Tribulation, we cannot possibly conclude
that Christ has already come.
[/quote]
What about scriptures that appear to point towards a pre
tribulation coming in order to select those account worthy to
live and reign with Christ for 1000 years?
Should we then believe in both a second and a third 'coming'?
Or even a second, third, and a fourth, to accommodate those who
believe the second has already occurred.
Or even an infinite number of 'comings' for those (Deborah for
instance) who believe that Christ 'comes again' with every
'conversion of faith'.
HTML http://i780.photobucket.com/albums/yy90/BigWheelHawaii/thinking-idea-animated-animation-smiley-emoticon-000339-large1_zps45848723.gif
#Post#: 216--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Kerry Date: December 5, 2014, 6:35 am
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=25.msg210#msg210 date=1417744948]
This would probably be after 70 AD. Up to that point the
apostles offered Christ to the Jews, but they, and He, were
generally despised and rejected. After that point God dispersed
the Jews throughout the world. .[/quote]I was not asking about
the many generations of Jews that came after Jesus' day. I was
asking about the people he was talking to specifically. Who is
the "ye" in this sentence?
Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, thither
ye cannot come.
I'd say it's the people he was talking to. What happened to
them? Did they later look for a Messiah? If you answer yes to
that, I'd think that would move the date up to Simon bar
Hokhbar's time around 135 AD; and the people Jesus was talking
to would have been dead. The real dispersal of the Jews also
came after the Bar Hokhbar revolt.
I also ask what happened to Caiaphas in your opinion?
Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless
I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on
the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
In your opinion, has Caiaphas seen this yet? If not, where is
he now? Is he looking for Jesus now and can't find him? And
when will this be fulfilled? I'm trying to sort your concepts
out. Will Caiaphas be resurrected later and be saved?
[quote]If we keep in mind that Christ Jesus came as the
King-Messiah of the Jews, then what He was saying is "You
unbelieving Jews will seek King-Messiah after I am gone, but you
will not find me" (not that they would be seeking for Him
personally but for a Messiah). This ties in with Mt 24:24-26
and His comment on false Messiahs. Thus the Jews have had a
series of false Messiahs come to them [/quote]Again, your
chronology confuses me. The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is
about events that would happen before the destruction of the
Temple.
Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these
things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one
stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came
unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the
world?
The rest of the chapter is about the things that would precede
the destruction of the Temple. This leaves me wondering how you
fit this into the overall picture.
I read the pronouns simply. "Me" means Jesus and "ye" means the
people he was talking to. Your interpretation seems to be
vastly different. The "me" means people other than Jesus and
not him when he used the word "me." And you also may be
applying the "ye" to future generations and not to the people
Jesus was talking to.
[quote]Since the Second Coming of Christ is (a) in power and
great glory, (b) with His saints from Heaven, and (c) with His
holy angels after the Great Tribulation, we cannot possibly
conclude that Christ has already come. Satan is firmly in
control of "the world" and all its kingdoms, and sin in
abounding more and more. When Christ returns, He will eradicate
sin and evil, and establish righteousness throughout the world.
[/quote]
You seem to have ideas about what "coming in power" and "coming
in glory" mean. Has it occurred to you that many Christians
could be looking for the wrong thing just the way many Jews were
and still are? Most Christians are as firm in their views as
the mistaken Jews were and say, "No, surely not!"
There are many Scriptures that promise he would return soon.
How many passages would you like me to quote? I think I could
muster up about twenty. I'd have to think they were all wrong
in order to believe Jesus did not return at the end of that age
or world-age. Let me take just one passage:
Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not
all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised
incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
He was writing to them not to us. If it is a true statement, it
should be true for them; and if it was true for them, perhaps it
could be true also for us; but if it was not true for them, why
bother with it? Yet people will say they all died -- they all
slept -- and none of them heard the last trump, no one was
raised, and no one was changed.
I also stoutly deny that Satan is "firmly in control of the
world." Dominion of the earth was given to man; and it's always
been man's. Satan's influence has always been established by
fraud and deceit, and by inspiring violence to make people
believe he has real power. He has no power at all except that
which people give him.
[quote]No the Jews have not been seeking Yeshua (Jesus) per se
(although there are more and more Messianic Jews who have
believed on Yeshua), but the Orthodox Jews are longing for
Messiah even now. These prophecies will fit in when the Jews
experience "the Time of Jacob's Trouble" (Jer 30:7) and long for
Messiah to deliver them. That is when He will come to deliver
them (also at His Second Coming) and redeem and restore Israel.
There are numerous prophecies (OT and NT) which reveal this
truth.
[/quote]I still read "me" to mean simply "Jesus" since he was
the person talking.
#Post#: 217--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Kerry Date: December 5, 2014, 6:43 am
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=25.msg214#msg214
date=1417766728]
What about scriptures that appear to point towards a pre
tribulation coming in order to select those account worthy to
live and reign with Christ for 1000 years?
Should we then believe in both a second and a third 'coming'?
Or even a second, third, and a fourth, to accommodate those who
believe the second has already occurred.
Or even an infinite number of 'comings' for those (Deborah for
instance) who believe that Christ 'comes again' with every
'conversion of faith'.[/quote]
I'd say he is the coming one. He is always coming. And he
comes "the second time" for those who wait. With most people,
I'd say this is when their physical body dies; but he can come
before then too if the soul is ready to die and be judged and
made immortal. There are saints for who this was so. St.
Francis of Assisi and Padre Pio come to mind.
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of
many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second
time without sin unto salvation.
That statement was true for the people reading it then, and
it's still true today. But alas, most people do not "die
before they die". They do not do as St. Francis and Padre Pio
did -- take up their crosses to follow Jesus and to die.
Indeed the gate is strait and the way narrow. Few find it.
So said Jesus . . . who also said many will sit down with
Abraham.
#Post#: 218--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Helen Date: December 5, 2014, 9:45 am
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[quote]Quote D.M. I also stoutly deny that Satan is "firmly in
control of the world." Dominion of the earth was given to man;
and it's always been man's. Satan's influence has always been
established by fraud and deceit, and by inspiring violence to
make people believe he has real power. He has no power at all
except that which people give him. [/quote]
Agree he is not firmly in control. Yet I do believe that Adam
did not follow though with the intent of God..( by dropping the
ball in the Garden via sin.) Adam came under the serpent by
taking of the fruit. The Last Adam rectified the situation by
standing firm in the temptation in the wilderness against the
serpent, and taking back for man what God had given. When he
said "Worship me and I will give you the world." Jesus didn't
say .." It's not yours to give." Jesus knew by overcoming and
standing IN God all dominion would be returned to man.
That's how I have always see it ?
#Post#: 224--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: Deborah Date: December 5, 2014, 12:43 pm
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=25.msg214#msg214
date=1417766728]
What about scriptures that appear to point towards a pre
tribulation coming in order to select those account worthy to
live and reign with Christ for 1000 years?
Should we then believe in both a second and a third 'coming'?
Or even a second, third, and a fourth, to accommodate those who
believe the second has already occurred.
Or even an infinite number of 'comings' for those (Deborah for
instance) who believe that Christ 'comes again' with every
'conversion of faith'.
[/quote]
You are mis-representing me!
I don't believe that Christ 'returns' with each conversion!
Whatever gave you that idea?
I'm expecting Him to return once, to bring the final judgement
and the end of the age.
#Post#: 225--------------------------------------------------
Re: What do these passages from John mean?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 5, 2014, 12:47 pm
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[quote author=Deborah link=topic=25.msg224#msg224
date=1417805026]
You are mis-representing me!
I don't believe that Christ 'returns' with each conversion!
Whatever gave you that idea?
I'm expecting Him to return once, to bring the final judgement
and the end of the age.
[/quote]
I thought that's what I could remember you saying.
If not you then it must have been someone else.
Apologies for getting it wrong.
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