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#Post#: 2056--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 26, 2015, 12:39 am
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1) Every aspect of mortal 'reason' that mankind can summon up
regarding the mind and intent of God falls if the foundation
upon which it is based ('Christian scripture') was itself
written by mortal mankind.
2) If however 'scripture' was written by God then one must
assume, from that the undeniable fact that its meanings cannot
be agreed upon by mankind, that God intended that such
understanding should result in nothing better than confusion and
misunderstand across the range of mankind (as evidenced by the
thread to date).
3) I suppose a compromise between '1 and 2' could be to believe
that scripture was written by mortal man inspired by God, but
not inspired to the degree of the writer becoming a 'robotic
pen', writing things way beyond the limits of his academic and
cosmic knowledge, and contrary to his cultural upbringing (that
indeed would be a 'miracle').
IMO '3' is the only plausible conclusion consistent with the
'Christian Faith'.
However 'Christianity' is but one of many universal 'Faiths' and
the 'Christian' believes that his is the only God.
In which case 'Christian scripture' (as per either '1 or 2') has
to be believed as being intended only for such of mankind as get
to see it in a form readable to themselves.
But what then of and those who do get to read it but reject it
in favour of other 'Faiths'?
4) If God intended us to 'know' the answers (either by recourse
to a 'complete and final, inerrant text book' or by recourse to
the inspired, but nevertheless fallible, writings of mortal man)
would he not have managed to convey them in an immediate
universal and more concise format, using far less that 8000
conflicting and ambiguous words?
The thread to date, using 'scripture' as the basis for
continuing centuries of unresolvable reasoning, fills me with
despair.
Beam me up out of the thread, Scottie.
#Post#: 2057--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 26, 2015, 4:05 am
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[quote]Mike:
The thread to date, using 'scripture' as the basis for
continuing centuries of unresolvable reasoning, fills me with
despair.[/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Mike, narrow it down to love God, love your
neighbor, God's law written on your heart, and Jesus as the
promised Messiah and Savior. The rest is all ideas and details.
No despair allowed. Remember: 'Jesus Loves Me', then stand
before the cross and know you love Him, too.
On Christ the solid rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand . . .
If sorting myself out causes anyone despair, I best go quiet.
Have read and considered all posts carefully, though. Thank you,
Kerry. Some things appealed to me and seemed right, and some
were a bit foreign to me. Your last post had me trying to walk
through a door, like in my dreams (strange, but pleasant
sensation), however my repeated attempts failed. Did get a
laugh out of Kevin, though, so was worth the bruises. ;D
I think I got "Kerry-ed" away. (Said with true affection.)
My love to you both. xxoo[/font]
#Post#: 2058--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 26, 2015, 6:11 am
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=242.msg2056#msg2056
date=1432618773]
1) Every aspect of mortal 'reason' that mankind can summon up
regarding the mind and intent of God falls if the foundation
upon which it is based ('Christian scripture') was itself
written by mortal mankind.[/quote]What sort of nonsense is this?
Your assumption seems to be that if you haven't ever observed
phenomena, then no one else ever did. I also don't base my
ideas solely on the Bible. Remember now, I have studied magic
and even practiced it. I've had unusual friends too who were
involved in all sorts of things; and I've observed things
directly you would call miracles. Yet I would not call most of
them miracles at all. What I say here is not based solely on
my belief that the prophets were likely right.
Remember me? I was the kid who heard in Sunday school about
Jesus cursing the tree and wondered if I could do the same
thing. Surely I told you that story. My Father had two little
trees he had dug up and brought home. I cursed one and not the
other -- even as a child I was scientific. Yes, the tree I
cursed died. Then my Father was sad and I was sad too. I
shouldn't have done that. Ah, but it was just a little sin.
It was something I kept to myself though. I resolved never to
experiment like that again with things that didn't belong to me.
I have talked to the wind too and had it answer me. These are
not matters I accept on mere belief that the authors of the
Bible were probably right. I tried them for myself.
I tell you what Caiaphas told his fellow priests, "You know
nothing at all." I can speak about some of these things; and
I have also observed some of the same things the prophets claim
to have seen. Don't try to say it was suggestive thinking
because it couldn't have been. I had some of those visions
before even reading the Bible all the way through. In some
cases, what I saw was something of a mystery to me. When I
read about them in the Bible, then I understood far better what
I had seen.
It may sound mad to you when a prophet writes about stones of
fire; but it makes sense to me since I've seen them.
[quote]2) If however 'scripture' was written by God then one
must assume, from that the undeniable fact that its meanings
cannot be agreed upon by mankind, that God intended that such
understanding should result in nothing better than confusion and
misunderstand across the range of mankind (as evidenced by the
thread to date).[/quote]
Ha, confusion springs up when the blind start leading the blind
-- or when the blind choose blind men to lead them. The
Scriptures can be reduced to meaningless drivel by such
traditions.
This thread may not make much sense to you; but I feel confident
that some things in it resonate with Piper. For example, some
of the events that we could call miraculous in her life occurred
when she was not around other people. That is fine, I think.
If people don't want to believe what she has said about these
things, they can reject these things as impossible by thinking
she's off her rocker.
Many things fall into place if given the right perspective.
God does not reveal Himself to lunatics, to people of unsound
mind. They have enough confusion as it is. God reveals Himself
to people who are well grounded in reality. In the Bible, it's
frequently shepherds. Thus Moses was out alone with the sheep
when he got his revelation. He was not holed up trying to
discern the Mind of God using either holy books or divination.
Moses was a practical man; and what he did know, he used for the
good -- namely the sheep in his care. Were they even his sheep?
I think not. Yet he cared for them. Moses was unassuming --
didn't have a "know-it-all" attitude. Didn't have his mind
filled with theological theories spun out of the fevered
imagination of spiritually blind men. And so it goes. But we
see Moses being faithful in tending his father-in-law's sheep;
and for this goodness, he was given the job of overseeing God's
flock of sheep. Use what we are given, and we'll be given more.
I ask you a direct question now since I believe God spoke to you
about this, telling you to do something good for others. Yes, I
believe that idea in your mind when you woke up came from God.
Have you obeyed it yet? People have all kinds of revelations
from God that they don't always recognize as being from God.
Why, if they disobey these things, should God reveal more to
them?
[quote]3) I suppose a compromise between '1 and 2' could be to
believe that scripture was written by mortal man inspired by
God, but not inspired to the degree of the writer becoming a
'robotic pen', writing things way beyond the limits of his
academic and cosmic knowledge, and contrary to his cultural
upbringing (that indeed would be a 'miracle').
IMO '3' is the only plausible conclusion consistent with the
'Christian Faith'.[/quote]
I don't know what you're talking about here.
For some reason, you seem to be discussing the idea that the
written Scriptures should be called the "Word of God." That is
absurd to me. It makes me laugh. I know there are people who
believe this; and I ask them if their Bible is sharper than a
two-edged sword? Has it divided their soul and spirit yet? Has
it discerned the thoughts of their heart?
Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and
sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing
asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is
a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Please don't hold me accountable for what others may believe.
Language is notoriously inept at describing reality, notoriously
unable to reflect reality. The saying goes, a picture is worth
a thousand words -- and that's true too. I could say to you,
"Sit in that chair if you want," but if you can't see a chair,
you'll have no idea what I'm talking about except in the vaguest
way. What color is it? How big is it? Where is it? What's
it made of? The word "chair" in the human language doesn't
describe the reality at all. Pile on as many additional words
as you please, and it's still a collection of words -- symbols.
A collection of symbols about a chair is not the same thing as
the chair. Thus any human description using language falls
short. To some extent, it can foster misunderstanding or even
mislead people. Words, no matter how accurate, are still going
to be inaccurate to some extent. It is pure folly then to
think we can find "truth" in human words.
Nevertheless a prophet must use human words to try to convey
whatever truth he has seen; and he may see things not completely
accurately; but even if he did see things accurately, his
written words will fall short.
I compare the Scriptures to someone saying, "Look at the moon"
while pointing up. If you are stupid enough to look at my
finger and think my finger is the moon, oh well. You may never
see the moon.
[quote]However 'Christianity' is but one of many universal
'Faiths' and the 'Christian' believes that his is the only God.
In which case 'Christian scripture' (as per either '1 or 2') has
to be believed as being intended only for such of mankind as get
to see it in a form readable to themselves.
But what then of and those who do get to read it but reject it
in favour of other 'Faiths'?[/quote]
Ha, ha, Christians often like to see themselves as Jews or as
replacing the Jews as God's chosen people. Perhaps they did at
that! They seem struck with spiritual blindness and arrogance
at times; and they are often rebellious too. The way of the
Christian may be a hard one since they need harshness.
Remember how Jesus told the inner group that few would find the
strait gate and the narrow way? He was telling that to his
fellow Jews. Yet coming down from the mountain, he said about
the Roman that many would sit down with Abraham.
Yes, perhaps Christians have replaced the Jews at that. Perhaps
others will find it easier to enter the kingdom with gentler
religions or by no religion at all.
[quote]4) If God intended us to 'know' the answers (either by
recourse to a 'complete and final, inerrant text book' or by
recourse to the inspired, but nevertheless fallible, writings of
mortal man) would he not have managed to convey them in an
immediate universal and more concise format, using far less that
8000 conflicting and ambiguous words?
The thread to date, using 'scripture' as the basis for
continuing centuries of unresolvable reasoning, fills me with
despair.[/quote]I think it appropriate that you should be filled
with despair. You chose wisely when you saw through the vain
traditions of men that others taught you in the past; but it
seems you are not looking at how and why you could have been
deceived in the first place. Why did you fall into such
things?
I tell you that falling into error often is part of God's plan
for us. If we wish to be deceived, God permits it. When we
tire of it, we can exit it. Just as darkness precedes light,
so too does the antichrist come before Christ. It does not
startle me or even annoy me when I say I think many Christians
are presently under the spirit of antichrist. So it will be
until reject it -- see it for what it is and reject it.
I cannot delve into your mind to know what got you following
vain traditions; but my guess is you wanted to believe you were
okay with God, just in case there was a God -- and just in case
He might be angry with you over something -- and just in case,
you needed to believe this or that in order to "live forever."
Most people's motives in picking religion are not the best.
With many Christians, the motive seems to be saving their own
hides. Some scoundrel minster can tell people they'll go to
hell if they visit a doctor -- and those people can sit around
and let their children die in front of their eyes without
getting medical aid because they're afraid of going to hell.
Where's the love in that? Such people are living in a fantasy
world based loosely on a few passages from the Bible while
ignoring other passages merrily and while ignoring also the
Golden Rule -- and absolutely rejecting what Jesus said, that
the person who seeks to lose his life will find it. There's
so much talk about gaining eternal life in some circles, I
wonder what's going on; and if I am to tell the truth, I don't
think people who are bent on saving their hides should be made
immortal, not in their current state.
[quote]Beam me up out of the thread, Scottie. [/quote]Sad to say
it; but you seemed entrenched in your view of things and seem to
lack the curiosity of a child. I repeat what Jesus said. We
must become like children. Not only are they inclined more
naturally to love, they also don't think they have all the
answers. As Lao Tzu said, thinking we know when we don't is a
dire disease. It is the bane of religion.
If you but knew it, every breath you take is a miracle.
Everything you see is a miracle.
#Post#: 2059--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 26, 2015, 7:29 am
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=242.msg2057#msg2057
date=1432631106]
If sorting myself out causes anyone despair, I best go
quiet.[/quote]
Mike is just being dramatic and using this thread to repeat some
of his pet ideas.
[quote]Have read and considered all posts carefully, though.
Thank you, Kerry. Some things appealed to me and seemed right,
and some were a bit foreign to me. Your last post had me trying
to walk through a door, like in my dreams (strange, but pleasant
sensation), however my repeated attempts failed. Did get a
laugh out of Kevin, though, so was worth the bruises.
;D[/quote]Ever wonder why you can walk through a wall or door
without opening it in a dream but can't in "real" life? There
are "problems" with the physical body -- problems we didn't
invent ourselves but which we sometimes add to.
You may have noticed that before the Crucifixion and
Resurrection, Jesus did not appear and disappear the way he did
later. He did not "materialize" inside locked rooms before but
could and did after. Now before the Crucifixion, he could
conceal who he was if he wanted -- most probably by projecting a
different image of himself so people didn't recognize him. He
was able to walk right through a group of people without them
recognizing him -- but at that point, he was still moving his
body around by using his legs. After, many more things were
possible. I can't say he moved "through" a wall. I rather
think he did not "move" from one point to another in a line the
way we do; but rather I think he can disappear at one point and
appear at another. He can vanish entirely too. I don't think
he needs a body if he doesn't feel like having it; and I also
think he can have multiple bodies.
Are those things miracles? I think that's the way things are
supposed to be. Sin has created traps so objects are dense and
solid and disobedient.
In the non-physical worlds, more things are possible. The
material world -- hang onto your hat now -- is a projection into
time and space of the other levels. When I speak of earth,
water, air and fire, I am talking of the physical plane and the
three spiritual planes; but the truth is the physical plane
doesn't really exist on its own. It is a confused mess of
conflicting projections from the other three -- the volitional,
the mental and the emotional. All three of those are
expression by man of God-given gifts -- and they 're powerful.
The question is sometimes asked what happens when an
irresistible force meets an unmovable object -- but I ask what
happens if people use the power God gave them to oppose each
other. Suppose you and I had the power to materialize objects
and you tried to materialize one thing in a space while I tried
to materialize something else. Who would win? Answer:
Neither of us. We'd wind up with a mess which we could call
"matter" -- matter is "confused" spiritual energy.
One problem humans have is resenting what others do; and this
can be seen more easily in boys than girls. Even at a young
age, boys are tempted to smash things someone else does if they
feel outdone. One boy builds a nice tower out of blocks, and
another boy's urge is to knock it over. That is completely
irrational. It also shows how easily people fall into wanting
to interfere with the free will of others. But it's a common
failing -- if you make someone feel inferior and convince him
he's unable to do much, his urge will be to wreck what others
can do.
The "True Will" of man is what he truly wants to do -- not based
on what others do or don't do. The "false will" is a
substitute, not what that person really wants to do. When you
observe a conflict, you can be sure -- 100% sure -- that at
least one person and maybe everyone involved is expressing the
false will. It is impossible -- completely impossible -- for
two people who are expressing their True Will to conflict.
Angels do not all think the same way; and people in Heaven can
disagree -- but it never leads to conflict. The truth is that
the universe would be tediously dull if everyone thought
alike and if everyone was the same. In some ways, it is true
that whatever we want to be true is true. Eventually if you
want to walk a body through a wall, that's what you will do.
The problems start when we try to make what is "true for me"
true for everyone else; the world is full of people who are
trying to impose their will on others. What it leads to is the
loss of God-given abilities. If I "decide" that I want to
live in a universe where it's possible for me to impose my
wishes on others against their will, that's what I may get.
I've just wished myself into a universe where others can impose
their wishes on me against my will.
Gifts can be lost or turned off by we decide we want to be true.
Human language is a hard method of communicating of course;
but most people in this world have lost their telepathic
abilities. One, they want to live in a world where others
can't read their minds -- they like the idea of deceiving others
-- and two, they've abused the gift when they had it and thought
it better to deprive themselves of using it. But really,
everyone still has that ability. It's just hidden away. Jesus
could discern the thoughts of others because he had nothing to
hide himself -- oh, he did hide some things but had good
motives. He wasn't hiding things out of shame or the wish to
take advantage of others. I've told more than one person this
about why people aren't telepathic, and no one believed me.
But then again, none of them had telepathic gifts either. Ha,
ha! What can I say? They knew I sometimes could read minds and
that's why they asked me why some people could and others
couldn't. I told them, but they didn't like the answer. So
then what is that to me? They can believe what they want.
It's their right.
#Post#: 2060--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 26, 2015, 1:30 pm
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HTML http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-churchs-teaching-on-miracles.html
HTML http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-churchs-teaching-on-miracles.html
#Post#: 2061--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 26, 2015, 1:31 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=242.msg2059#msg2059
date=1432643382]
Mike is just being dramatic and using this thread to repeat some
of his pet ideas.
[/quote]
That's about the top and bottom of things.....remember 'Mirage'
from faithforum.org., (who I considered rather obnoxious)?
He used to slam me for being what he called a 'drama queen'.
And yes I do indeed remember about you putting a curse on your
father's trees (or something like that).
In those days 'WellWisher' and I feared that you had put curses
on us. ::)
But then we also reckoned you to be a High Priest from TOS.
No wonder we're all bonkers.
#Post#: 2062--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 26, 2015, 5:03 pm
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=242.msg2061#msg2061
date=1432665099]
That's about the top and bottom of things.....remember 'Mirage'
from faithforum.org., (who I considered rather obnoxious)?
He used to slam me for being what he called a 'drama
queen'.[/quote]
Yes, I remember him. I haven't heard from him in ages. Maybe
I'll try to call or email him, but changes numbers and addresses
a lot. Did you know he had an experience that convinced him God
was real? He found my advice not to rush into some religion
sound. Many people when they experience the "supernatural"
think the thing to do is rush out and find an "authority" --
someone who "knows more" than they do. The odds are stacked
against them; and they usually wind up like wrecked ships. In
most cases, the person who has a clear sign that God is real
does not need a human authority, he should trust God and not
men. Moses, for example, would have been showing disrespect to
God and contempt for his own vision had he gone back to Egypt
trying to learn more about God from the masters of false
religion there.
Mirage/Patrick agreed with me on that and admitted he was
curious about things but wouldn't fall into a "system" of
thought created by men -- but rather wait to see if God had
anything else to reveal. My advice to him was not to take
anyone seriously not even me. He shouldn't believe what I say
just because I say it. Nor did I urge him to be a Christian.
If Jesus wants him, Jesus will go get him. I'll leave that up
to Jesus. If Jesus can get Paul when he wanted him, why should
I worry?
When men and women have not had any such experiences, maybe
what I say can be useful; but once they've been reached by
Heaven itself, I'm not needed that much, am I?
#Post#: 2063--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 26, 2015, 5:24 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=242.msg2060#msg2060
date=1432665012]
HTML http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-churchs-teaching-on-miracles.html
HTML http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/controversy/common-misconceptions/the-churchs-teaching-on-miracles.html
[/quote]I agree with much of that, but the author erred somewhat
here, perhaps because he didn't know about the people who saw
nothing:
Sometimes miracles counter nature. At Fatima, following the
miracle of the sun, the crowd and ground that were soaked by the
rain were dried instantaneously. In Babylon, Shadrach, Meshach,
and Abednego survived the fiery furnace (Dan. 3:15-23). In both
cases God countered the effects of nature much like a protective
shelter might protect its inhabitants.
His conclusion is based on the assumption that it had rained.
He then must conclude that the rain was dried instantly. There
were people there who didn't see it raining.
Check out the footnotes. While those are good sources, they
are not official positions. Even the talk by Pope John Paul II
should not be considered infallible truth.
The author also ducks the issue of miracles coming from the
Dark Side. That is serious too.
Miracles will always have as their primary purpose the
glorification of God and the calling of people to salvation. The
signs worked by Jesus attest to His divine authority and invite
belief in Him (cf. Catechism, no. 548). After His Ascension and
Pentecost, Christ's disciples worked miracles in the name of
Christ, thus giving the people signs of His divinity and proofs
that He is who they said He is. In the same way later saints
worked miracles to testify to a higher authority and that people
are called to His kingdom.
Miracles can also have secondary purposes. They can attest to
the divine authority of a mission. The miracles Moses performed
not only showed that God wanted Pharaoh to release His people;
they also showed that Moses was from God. Further, these
miracles, indelibly inscribed in the memory of the Jews,
prepared them to understand the signs given to show them that
Jesus was sent by the Father. The miracle of the sun at Fatima
was a sign to the people that the messages given through the
children were of divine origin.
The author seems not to discuss how miracles can be used for
evil. I can't be sure; but he seems to have a type of mind
that thinks anything miraculous must be from God. Some
Catholics can be easily misled by such things.
This site has a long list of things Bishops condemned.
HTML http://www.cafarus.ch/falseapparitions.html
#Post#: 2065--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 26, 2015, 8:00 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
Was your message to Mike for Mike or for me? ;)
I seek the viewpoint of the Catholic Church on most subjects
that come up nowadays. I wouldn't accept their "authority"
except that I asked God for a specific sign (for guidance) if
He, in fact, wished me to pursue/learn about the Catholic faith.
As you recall, the sign was given in what I considered a
spectacular way, assuring me that God has given me a green
light. I must assume He desires I trust the Catholic Church.
My prayer was not to find a Church that agrees with my beliefs,
but to affirm the Catholic Church has belief system I may trust.
I chose the article because there was little in the Catechism
concerning miracles. "Miracle" wasn't even listed in the Index.
Fatima was used as an example of a miracle that countered
nature. To the people who did have the experience, it was as he
stated--they and the ground were rain-soaked, then they were
instantly dry. He left out a detail, but that detail is that
some were left out of the experience; the experience was
withheld from them for some reason. I dare not judge why.
I agree, the discussion omitted "dark-side" miracles, but any
"good" Catholic, knowledgeable of Scripture, would be aware that
such potential exists.
On a POSITIVE note, the following words helped bring light to my
own experiences, by prompting me to ask the right
questions:[/font]
[quote][font=times new roman]"Miracles are learning experiences
for us. They point to something that God wants us to know or
believe about Himself and His loving plan of
salvation."[/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I found the Catechism, btw, does speak of
"moral law".
And, as for Jesus, He and I have a bond based on the word
"Always", written by His own hand as a promise to me in a dream.
The storms cast their darkness, but my ship sails on (no
"wrecked ship" here).[/font]
#Post#: 2067--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 26, 2015, 8:54 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
It was meant mostly for you, Piper.
I say if there had been cameras at Fatima, they wouldn't have
caught anything unusual.
Some less-than-holy presences also seem able to override
ordinary senses to make people perceive things. Experiments
have been done. You get a room that's haunted and get someone
to sleep in it. You seal the door with wax and sprinkle talcum
powder on the floor. If the ghost shows up, the person may say
he sees the door opening and the phantom entering the room. He
may even say it left footprints on the floor. In the morning
though, the wax seal is still there showing the door wasn't
opened, and the talcum powder is undisturbed.
Ghosts seem to show up after they can get humans to feel
creeped out. They seem to be using the emotional energy of the
humans in order to take on visible form.
So the question is was the ghost really there? I'd say yes.
The person saw it -- but he made a mistake by thinking he was
seeing it with his physical eyes.
I know a woman who said she saw a demon once when she was
walking with another woman. I can believe that. The part I
didn't understand was when she said she asked the other woman if
she saw it too. I think -- I hope -- I would have known I
could see it but other people couldn't. I probably wouldn't
have mentioned it. The woman who saw it probably needs to
fine-tune her senses so she knows what's physical and what's
not.
Yes, I've seen things I didn't expect other humans to see -- but
I found out that Milhaus could see them. I told you about the
black ball that came out of the wall towards me. Milhaus
definitely saw it since he turned his head to watch it as it
came across the room.
Was the angel that Balaam's donkey saw physical? Balaam
couldn't see it at first. I don't think the people with him saw
it.
Did Fatima happen? I'd say yes but it was a spiritual
manifestation that humans were confused about by thinking it was
raining physically and so on. Someone with developed
spiritual sight would have seen everything but realized what he
was seeing was spiritual.
[quote]He left out a detail, but that detail is that some were
left out of the experience; the experience was withheld from
them for some reason. I dare not judge why.[/quote]It seems
obvious to me. They were seeing things with their physical eyes
and nothing happened physically. Other people with more open
minds were enabled to see things that were happening
spiritually.
What amazes me is the belief it had to be raining physically.
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