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#Post#: 2043--------------------------------------------------
Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 24, 2015, 6:15 pm
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I hope the reader eventually concludes that there are no such
things as miracles, that what we call miracles are only those
things we do not understand yet. I believe that God's laws are
completely perfect so there would never be a need for Him to
break them. What appears to men as the breaking of a law might
be someone walking on water; but I tell you that some men also
believed airplanes were supernatural when they first saw them.
I further believe that we humans could understand God's laws
better and stop thinking of "miracles" as the breaking of laws
and see them as God acting rationally and lovingly when it is
possible for Him to do so.
The reader may be astonished and ask, "What do you mean by 'when
it is possible" -- can't God do anything? Aren't all things
possible?" The answer is God has the Power to do anything if
He wished; but He is restrained by His Love and Wisdom from
doing certain things. Thus we read that God cannot lie.
I believe miracles are misunderstood for several reasons. One
is man's resistance to how God does things. Men may say they
want to understand God; but is that true if they rebel against
His laws? Another reason is man's belief that God is like men,
making laws for others to keep but feeling free to break them
Himself.
A third is the belief that God made a serious mistake by giving
man free will and dominion over the earth. This idea is an
idea contrived by Satan, of course, who defames both God and man
by it. God did not err in how He made man or by giving him free
will and dominion over the earth. Let us reject the idea of
God getting angry when men don't do as He wants that He decides
to smash things and vent anger on a disobedient race of men.
This kind of thinking is behind various beliefs. One belief
based on this is the idea of the rapture. That when mankind
gets too desperately wicked, God will rapture the good people
away and then wreak wrath on everyone remaining. This paints
God as a vindictive sore loser.
It would also mean there were no righteous men on the earth to
exercise lawful dominion over it on God's behalf, and you will
find if you study it that God has always had at least one
righteous man on the earth. If you do the math, you find that
Shem was still alive when Abraham made his connection with
Heaven; and so it goes.
This kind of thinking also obscures the reason Jesus set aside
all Heavenly glory and became "lower than the angels." This
was a necessity. A man had to do it since dominion over the
earth was man's. For God in Heaven to do it on His own by
intervening would have been to admit failure on His part in how
He had made man in the first place. Jesus did what he did by
exercising lawful dominion over the earth -- and doing it the
way God wants all men to do.
So we must set aside the idea that God is going to interfere
with man in a way that violates man's free will. It's not going
to happen. The gifts of free will and dominion over the earth
were made, and the gifts of God are without repentance. To
believe otherwise, I say, is to believe God is like men who
give gifts hoping to get something in return and then demanding
them back if they don't get what they want.
If we see that God does not intervene in the affairs of men in a
way that violates their free will or their right to exercise
dominion over the earth, we can then see that some miracles
could not and will not occur.
Suppose you wanted to move a mountain. I mean literally. I
doubt God would answer such a prayer if you prayed for it, at
least not right away; and if you went out and ordered it to
move, I doubt you'd see it move. Why? The answer is simple:
Too many other people want that mountain there. There are more
of them than you; and furthermore, many of them could be killed
if the mountain moved. God's plan may be for some of them to
come to repentance. Even if they were all wicked, perhaps
God's plan involves them learning from their mistakes.
All that being said, there is a certain area in the world that
I pray falls into the ocean. I was shown in a vision that it
would someday and I was told to pray for it to happen. Yet I do
not expect to see it happen in this lifetime. I expect it to
happen in the future after I'm long gone; but I believe my
prayers now are doing something. I believe firmly that more
than one mountain will go into the sea. But it can't be now.
There are other people involved, and they matter -- in
particular the innocent ones and the ones who can learn from
their mistakes and change for the better. I know I cannot sit
in my bedroom and pray for this to happen and then read about it
in the news. I cannot believe I have the right to determine the
fate of so many other people on my own. I firmly believe I'm
right; but I also know it will take time for Heaven to sort
things out; and when all the good has been pulled out of the
area, leaving only the wicked, then and only then will that area
crash into the sea. Still when I read about earthquakes in
that area, I feel some progress is being made.
Other things may be derived from understanding where and when
God will and will not act based on His honoring the gifts of
free will and dominion over the earth to man. People can pray
amiss at times, asking God to do things for them in a way that
would cause suffering or inconvenience for others. Suppose you
were planning a family picnic and would like good weather that
day. Should you pray it doesn't rain? If farmers needed
rain, you'd be essentially be asking God to let their crops
suffer so you could enjoy your picnic. If you really want a
sunny day for your picnic, I'd advise to start praying maybe a
month before. Pray for all the farmers and their crops. Pray
that they get all the rain they need before the day of your
picnic. Ask God to look at the situation and everyone involved
and then ask if it's possible for you to have a rain-free day
for your picnic.
To pray for sunny weather a few days before the event could be
asking for more of a curse than a blessing. I promise you that
God would not answer that prayer. It would not even make it to
the Throne of God for consideration since it was an impure
thought. And woe to you if the Dark Side was listening to you
praying your selfish prayer and then contrived to bring about
the curse. You might even think God answered you.
Should I discuss why it was possible for God to intervene in the
cases of Sodom and i of Egypt with Israel?
#Post#: 2046--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 25, 2015, 1:21 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Question: Isn't there a vast difference
between natural laws (God's rules which govern the workings of
nature and natural elements in the world) and moral laws (God's
laws which are given and made known to man for man's own good
and protection-- those laws which govern man's behavior toward
both God and man)?
I agree God would not break His own moral code nor ask that we
do so. However . . .
If God is Sovereign Creator of all, is above all things, and
holds all things of the earth together by divine power and
energy, and if man is to accept God as Righteous Judge over all
the earth, then would not God, by right of His Supremacy over
His own creation and by way of His omniscient knowing the hearts
of all men, have the divine option, at His holy discretion, to
exercise His power to intervene and disrupt His own natural
law/laws in order to advance the moral and/or spiritual growth
of His own creatures and/or to present a divine display of His
almighty power to protect or provide for His own or to
smite/annihilate/punish the unrepentant unrighteous? Would He
not also have the supreme right at a given point in time to
judge that all men, save a certain number, a handful, or save
only one, have become thoroughly corrupt, knowing the thoughts
and actions of the vast majority of mankind have become
consistently evil? And would not such a supreme, omniscient,
righteous, and Divine Judge have the right to therefore execute
judgement in whatever way He sees fit (to aid/reward/protect His
faithful and to warn/punish/terminate the unrepentant
unrighteous), including the breaking of His own natural laws in
order to achieve His good and perfect will? Would such divine
action based on righteous judgment make God a "vindictive sore
loser", or would it only make Him . . . God?
Does God have the right at any point in time to intervene in the
face of evil and say, "Enough is enough"?
In short, I don't see that God would break His own moral laws by
breaking His own natural laws set forth upon the earth. It
seems to me His right to do so, to intervene in the world at His
discretion.
Concerning dominion, we are, to my understanding, stewards of
the earth, not rulers. Only God is Sovereign and Supreme Ruler.
Jesus said that we would do far greater things than He, Himself.
But is not anything we might do done by the power of God within
us, and never by any power of our own; was this not exemplified
by Jesus when He walked as a man, humbled, amidst humanity,
calling upon the power of His Father? If, for example, we
instantaneously heal the sick, if we raise the dead, if we
produce a multitude of loaves where there was only one, call the
fish of the sea to gather into our nets, if we walk on water or
fly through the heavens-- is this not the breaking of ordinary
natural laws governing the earth, only by the power of God in
us/given to us? By natural law, men can not, of their own
volition or power, instantaneously heal the ravages of disease,
raise or call the spirits of the dead to return to their bodies,
multiply provisions in time of dire need, call the fish of the
sea or the birds of the air to gather, nor can natural man under
God's natural laws of nature walk upon the surface of a lake or
fly through the heavens or, for that matter, speak in languages
unknown, see the future before it occurs, hear the voice of a
loved one in one's own mind when that loved one is miles and
miles away, experience shared dream states, nor can a man stop
the hail from falling on a specific plot of land, call down rain
from heaven, walk through fire without being burned, call forth
water from dry wood, or cause an angelic army to suddenly be
visible to encourage the faithful or to terrify the enemy. All
these things occur only by the power of God, not by the power of
our own hand, although such things might occur corruptly in
diminished form, and in twisted counterfeit by power of
darkness, which can only lack eternal light and consequence.
As I see things, to my understanding, on this earth, we
(mankind) have very limited power, governed by God's natural
laws set forth over the earth. God's moral law, as well as
God's natural law, which limits our power, is for our
protection, given by divine love. There is, I believe,
"supernatural" power to be grasped from the powers that be,
based upon our decision of on whom do we call? Whom do we
serve? Are we, in the eyes of God, ready and able to handle the
awesome gift of such divine power flowing from God through our
being, as Jesus, in His humanity, was ready? Will any man who
walks this earth ever be as 'ready' or as worthy as was Christ
to deliver such manifold displays of power to mankind, in the
awesome quantity of display that was borne of Jesus, here on
earth?
We must ask ourselves: Why and to what purpose did the Father
allow such bold display of intervention of "natural law" through
Jesus, in the form of a mere man, to be exibited?! What
conclusions do we come to concerning who Jesus is, who we are,
how we differ, and what is our will upon this earth as compared
to the will of Jesus while on this earth, as a man? Why did God
invest such supreme trust in Jesus? Why was Jesus sent, in such
a way that even His birth defied "natural law"? What mere man,
instead of an earthly father, has God as His Father; what mere
man is borne of a Virgin?!
Light will always shine in the darkness, and though some men
choose the darkness, we know that the greater power, any power
of eternal significance, is of God: our Father, and His Son,
and the Holy Spirit. The glory belongs to these three, as One,
and to man only by the power given through Christ to become the
Children of God, if we embrace in love, honor with reverent
fear, repent of sin, and obey this revealed entity of God. The
cross, to my understanding, is God's ultimate display of love
and mercy toward His fallen creation-- the pinnacle of the war
between good and evil, the Victory of God, masked as defeat.
Sacrificial love spawns redemption; agape love is our salvation.
Agape love, ultimately, is the only lasting, eternal Law.
[/font]
#Post#: 2047--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 25, 2015, 2:00 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
Do allow me to chew on your opening post awhile longer; the
above is more a sorting of my own thoughts, than a
thought-for-thought reply to your post, and I might have gone
off topic, although all seemed relevant as I wrote it. (Took me
a lifetime . . . ;) ) Will consider your OP more thoroughly, in
time. The concept of miracles is fascinating, and I definitely
believe they occur to this very day. What we believe concerning
them is important. All the power of God available to us stems
on our belief; we must believe that He exists, and that He can
do all He has done, is doing, and will do. Since we are His
hands and feet, much is, or could be done through us, I believe
within, or less often, outside of the given laws of nature.
Have statues of Our Lady truly wept, and did she truly appear to
help guide us to her Son, and intercede on our behalf? What
are the recorded miracles of various saints? What criteria,
according to the Church, constitute a miracle, and why? How
many, shall we say 'personal' miracles, occur that go
unrecorded? My guess is many.
Not sure you want to go into all these things, here. Please
advise if you want to remain within a certain scope.
Thanks![/font]
#Post#: 2048--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 25, 2015, 4:14 pm
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[quote]Quote Kerry:
This kind of thinking (the idea of God getting angry when men
don't do as He wants that He decides to smash things and vent
anger on a disobedient race of men) also obscures the reason
Jesus set aside all Heavenly glory and became "lower than the
angels." This was a necessity. A man had to do it since
dominion over the earth was man's. For God in Heaven to do it
on His own by intervening would have been to admit failure on
His part in how He had made man in the first place. Jesus did
what he did by exercising lawful dominion over the earth -- and
doing it the way God wants all men to do. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]What, specifically, is the "it" (highlighted
red) that you refer to?
What, specifically, did Jesus do (highlighted blue)?
Does it and what Jesus did refer to defeating sin/overcoming?
If man, by free will, brought sin into the world, does it not
stand to reason that God, by taking on flesh in Christ (by
fathering Him in His incarnation and providing a virgin birth
through a 'favored', prepared, and chosen human woman for the
holy man/god child that was to be like no other), could, in love
for mankind whom He created, exercise lawful dominion as
(fully)man/(fully) God to not only overcome sin, but provide the
proof (the miracles) that He (Jesus) was of God; thus the grace
of God corrects the problem of sin thru sacrificial love,
providing the needed perfect representation (example) for man to
follow (Jesus) in order that man might walk the same path of
earthly life lived seeking the Father and perservering
suffering/unquestioning adherence to the will of the Father
toward greater good? Jesus brought to earth what man alone
could not and can not achieve--the perfect sacrifice for sin,
one based fully on agape love borne of both man and God?
Scripture says salvation belongs to our God, and He freely chose
to provide a way to heal (repentant) man of His sin through
Jesus Christ.
Man could never atone for sin alone, for no man has lived that
has never sinned, save the God-man, Jesus. God and man thus
defeat the enemy of man, bound together-- as always; we do
nothing apart from God.[/font]
#Post#: 2049--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 25, 2015, 4:28 pm
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[quote][font=trebuchet ms] Quote Piper: What mere man, instead
of an earthly father, has God as His Father; what mere man is
borne of a Virgin?![/font][/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]Ahh, but as the new creation we are given the
right to become the adopted children of the same. Jesus was the
firstborn. We follow.
God is my Father and Mary is my Mother. Wonderful! I can be
like Jesus.
Sorry, back to miracles . . . but it is miraculous, isn't it,
that we might be so transformed and given family?[/font]
#Post#: 2050--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Piper Date: May 25, 2015, 4:59 pm
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[quote]Quote Kerry: Let us reject the idea of God getting
angry when men don't do as He wants that He decides to smash
things and vent anger on a disobedient race of men. [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]But then, what of:
John 3:36 (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he
that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of
God abideth on him.
Certainly the wrath of God is factual, according to the verse,
and manifests in various ways. ?
Don't we see the wrath of God on sinners throughout Scripture?
(I'd best stop and allow you to catch up, Kerry. You do make me
think. :) )[/font]
#Post#: 2051--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 25, 2015, 8:40 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=242.msg2046#msg2046
date=1432578117]
Question: Isn't there a vast difference between natural laws
(God's rules which govern the workings of nature and natural
elements in the world) and moral laws (God's laws which are
given and made known to man for man's own good and protection--
those laws which govern man's behavior toward both God and
man)?[/quote]No such moral laws exist that I know of. The 613
laws given through Moses were an attempt to steer man in the
right direction when he rejected the Law of Light, the Torah Or.
Those rules are an attempt to explain in stumbling human
language the only rule or law we need to know -- the Golden
Rule. God obeys the Golden Rule perfectly. He would cease to
be God if He didn't.
Indeed the angels which fell used to be part of God. In one
way, they can still be considered to be parts of God -- like
burning embers taken from a central fire. They cease to be
godlike however in their state of rebellion and the isolation
they've chosen. The price for choosing selfishness over
accepting and giving Divine Love is you get what you asked for.
The same principle holds for man who are also fallen
spiritually.
The Bible says "the wrath of the LORD" prompted David to count
the people in one place, and in another it's "Satan" who did it.
The Divine Nature, if fractured off from the Unity, ceased to
be divine. Yet the Bible still may call such fallen beings
"gods" and Jesus even told some not-so-nice people that the
Bible called them "gods."
[quote]I agree God would not break His own moral code nor ask
that we do so. However . . .
If God is Sovereign Creator of all, is above all things, and
holds all things of the earth together by divine power and
energy, and if man is to accept God as Righteous Judge over all
the earth, then would not God, by right of His Supremacy over
His own creation and by way of His omniscient knowing the hearts
of all men, have the divine option, at His holy discretion, to
exercise His power to intervene and disrupt His own natural
law/laws in order to advance the moral and/or spiritual growth
of His own creatures and/or to present a divine display of His
almighty power to protect or provide for His own or to
smite/annihilate/punish the unrepentant unrighteous?[/quote]
What we call an intervention or disruption of natural laws is
obedience to the Law of Love.
What we call punishing the unrepentant or unrighteous is
another necessity under the Law of Love. The timing of such
events is not random or dependent on God's emotions as some
imagine. God doesn't get impatient and finally explode with
wrath the way men do. One does not need to be a prophet to
see some things Jesus said is true. We often vainly imagine
Jesus knew things by Divine Revelation when in fact they can be
known by any man whose man is ready to receive the truth. They
are meant to instruct us in God's standards.
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the
coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were
eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the
day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so
shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This is just the way God does things. When evil becomes so
prevalent in a culture that it is impossible for children to be
born in it and grow up so they could choose good, someone has
defied God. God gave us all free will. If men create a
culture where children can't exercise free will, those men are
in violation of the Law of Free Will. They can be punished if
only one person complains about it; but if no one complains,
they go unscathed. Anytime we violate the free will of others,
we are disobeying the Golden Rule.
If everyone is violating the free will of their neighbors, again
God won't intervene. Both are guilty. There is no innocent
victim that God will protect. But if one party is guilty and
the other innocent, the violator of free will can be removed if
just one person asks for judgment.
Let me take up how events started in Egypt. It started over
religious freedom. Moreover it was God's wish that Israel
intercede for Egypt; and Pharaoh refused. This was going
beyond his lawful limits. No secular ruler has the right to
refuse his people religious freedom.
When we talk about how God holds things together, we can see
this too is done by laws. The law of gravity, for example, is
useful. It is not thinkable to me that Jesus disobeyed the law
of gravity when he walked on water. No, I think he did
something else. There was no need to say, "This law of gravity
is usually good but let me do away with it for a moment."
[quote]Would He not also have the supreme right at a given
point in time to judge that all men, save a certain number, a
handful, or save only one, have become thoroughly corrupt,
knowing the thoughts and actions of the vast majority of mankind
have become consistently evil? And would not such a supreme,
omniscient, righteous, and Divine Judge have the right to
therefore execute judgement in whatever way He sees fit (to
aid/reward/protect His faithful and to warn/punish/terminate the
unrepentant unrighteous), including the breaking of His own
natural laws in order to achieve His good and perfect will?
Would such divine action based on righteous judgment make God a
"vindictive sore loser", or would it only make Him . . . God?
Does God have the right at any point in time to intervene in the
face of evil and say, "Enough is enough"? [/quote]
There must be an innocent party and the guilty parties can have
no excuse for their actions. If there is even one mitigating
circumstance that implies they could repent if things were
different, they can be excused and judgment deferred.
If God wishes to influence events, He will send someone. Such
servants are unusual in that they suffer unjustly; but they are
willing to do it so God can get things on the earth, things
which benefit others. The Jews say Esther was appointed to her
job even before she was born. That could be examined at length
too; but one unusual thing is how she could read and write.
Another is how Mordecai could understand the language of the
Persians. These servants resemble Jesus in being willing to
suffer to get things done.
In fact, their suffering makes it possible for Heaven to act.
If everyone is guilty in a situation, Heaven would not act. Thus
the saying, "Blessed are you when men persecute you." If the
wicked wish to fight with each other, that is their affair.
They have the right to do it; and it is a violation of the Law
of Free Will to intervene. Thus this verse:
Deuteronomy 25:11 When men strive together one with another, and
the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out
of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand,
and taketh him by the secrets:
12 Then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity
her.
It is better for a peaceful person to allow two people who enjoy
fighting to keep on fighting than to get into the fray too and
become as guilty as they are -- perhaps guiltier. But if one
of those men attacked the other who didn't want to fight, the
situation would be different. Two men fighting can be said to
be under a delusion of sorts. They may fight, but they may get
it worked out of their systems. It is also far better if they
fight each other than if they were beating their wives and
children.
Still when God sees evil men fighting evil men, it is desirable
that something be done. Enter the proverbial (or literal)
"sacrificial lamb."
[quote]In short, I don't see that God would break His own moral
laws by breaking His own natural laws set forth upon the earth.
It seems to me His right to do so, to intervene in the world at
His discretion. [/quote]
Your view has God as being something of a poor planner. There
may also be factors that escape you at the moment.
Would you say Jesus "broke" any natural laws when he multiplied
the bread and fishes? I would not. This seems to go back to
our previous conversation about time -- which I forgot about
somewhat.
Our idea of what laws apply to what are tied in with our
concepts of time. You see a loaf a bread. You believe it's
there. You believe it will be there two minutes from now and
five minutes and so on until someone does something. Someone
could eat it, someone could burn it, someone could change it --
but your belief is still that the atoms of that bread will
"persist" in time. We humans as a rule don't think things can
disappear or appear. They change, but they will still be there
in an altered form.
This is not the way things really are. This is the way things
seem to us as the result of our belief, "Matter is God!"
Concerning dominion, we are, to my understanding, stewards of
the earth, not rulers. Only God is Sovereign and Supreme Ruler.
Jesus respected the authority of both Pilate and the High
Priest. The idea that we are stewards and without any real
authority could be inferred from some passages of the Bible; but
I don't think it's feasible in the end.
What I believe is that God created man knowing he would make
mistakes and knowing too that eventually he would succeed.
How to handle the mistakes was taken care of before man made
any mistakes. God's intention was to have man choose correctly
so He could crown him with glory. I believe this will come to
pass.
Psalm 8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,
and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands;
thou hast put all things under his feet:
Man's success at this depends on inviting God into the world.
Man is the bridge or connection between Heaven and earth.
[quote]Jesus said that we would do far greater things than He,
Himself. [/quote]
I'd say the Apostles did greater things than Jesus on the first
Pentecost. How many followers did Jesus have? Faithful ones?
There were but 120 in the Upper Room. There were 3000 added
that day.
We are tempted to think of greater things as things which
astound us by their miraculous nature, but which is truly
greater -- a lost sheep that is found or something we see as a
miracle?
[quote]But is not anything we might do done by the power of God
within us, and never by any power of our own; was this not
exemplified by Jesus when He walked as a man, humbled, amidst
humanity, calling upon the power of His Father? [/quote]In the
final analysis, all power is derived from God. Even the powers
of black magicians and the like can be traced back to God
somehow.
The question is how we use the power given to us; and there is a
rule there too. Use what we are given wisely and in the
interest of Love, and we will be given more. Use it to profit
ourselves and to oppress others, and we will lose it. There is
no way to escape the Golden Rule. The black magicians at
Pharaoh's court found out their serpent power was not as
powerful as what Moses could summon. It's the way the universe
operates. Two heads are better than one and two sticks bound
together are stronger than one. The Power of God is always
going to win because it's unified and not broken up into
competing factions.
[quote]If, for example, we instantaneously heal the sick, if
we raise the dead, if we produce a multitude of loaves where
there was only one, call the fish of the sea to gather into our
nets, if we walk on water or fly through the heavens-- is this
not the breaking of ordinary natural laws governing the earth,
only by the power of God in us/given to us? [/quote]I would say
no. I would say it is violating what most men want to be true
on the earth. Man has dominion over the earth. Most people want
"reality" the way it is. From that observation springs a
surprising conclusion: Performing miracles in general is in
opposition to the free will of man. Miracles, being by their
"nature" opposed to the "natural order" men want the world to
have can be dubious things. There is almost always a negative
side to them as a result. I could even say miracles are
slightly sinful in a way since they go against what most people
want "reality" to be.
Whether a miracle is allowed then depends on how much good it
will do. It can depend too on who's around. Jesus did some of
his miracles in secret to avoid certain repercussions. He
avoided performing miracles (or at least many) too at times.
Certainly this does not mean God was unable to act. Rather it
means more harm than good could have been done by performing
some things in public. I'd say more harm than good can come
from some miracles even if performed in secret.
It is permissible to allow evil men who are about to be brought
to justice to view the miraculous. Pharaoh learned that the
hard way. People who are guilty irrevocably don't count
anymore in the equation. They are guilty themselves of
violating the free will of others -- so their free will ceases
to matter. They are judged as they have judged others. What
they want stops mattering. So what if the people of Sodom
didn't want it to rain fire and brimstone? What rights could
they claim in the courts of Heaven? The right to live? The
right to own property? The right to free will? They had
deprived others of all those rights.
I think we can say Israel was ready to accept them in a way most
other people wouldn't be. I'd say they expected too much of
the miraculous. When things got a little hard, they wanted to
return to the ordinary things of Egypt, the leeks and cucumbers
-- if God didn't provide everything they wanted by miracles.
Here is a hard question few dare to think about: Why do we see
Jesus doing fewer and smaller miracles than Moses? Me? I
congratulate Jesus on that account. So far as I can see, Jesus
did enough miracles to show that he had some sort of connection
-- and then left it to others to judge whether his connection
was with God or with the powers of darkness.
When someone performs miracles by healing others, it's not
always because they deserve it or to benefit them personally.
Sometimes it can be to benefit the observers. If a prophet
needs to be believed and a few miracles will help people
believe, those miracles can occur to steer people in the right
direction. I'd say Moses did a lot of miracles to make sure
Judaism got off to a good start and not necessarily because the
people deserved them. God was thinking about future generations
too.
I don't think Jesus had to do as miracles to get Christianity
off to a start so he didn't.
Miracles also are kept track of -- in more than one way. The
most obvious way is the "virtue" in the person. Thus the woman
got healed by touching Jesus even when he didn't intend it --
but we learn he knew "virtue" had left him.
That "virtue" is not what many think it is. It too follows
rules. The saint, if properly tuned, can call forth energy and
power from the earth itself. This ability shows a "man" has
mastered a principle generally reckoned as "feminine." The
earth "helped" the woman in Revelation 12:6.
"How blessed are the feet. . . . " People are missing
something if they think the earth was completely holy before the
feet of Moses helped make it holy. It was God being able to
work through Moses that helped purify it. Yes, I think it was
already sacred to an extent; but it was also connected with
Moses' feet. Jesus washing the feet of the disciples did
something to their feet, I think. Abraham walking about also
did something -- consecrating the land.
I believe angels can see the footprints of the saints. They
leave fiery footprints in the earth.
[quote]By natural law, men can not, of their own volition or
power, instantaneously heal the ravages of disease, raise or
call the spirits of the dead to return to their bodies, multiply
provisions in time of dire need, call the fish of the sea or the
birds of the air to gather, nor can natural man under God's
natural laws of nature walk upon the surface of a lake or fly
through the heavens or, for that matter, speak in languages
unknown, see the future before it occurs, hear the voice of a
loved one in one's own mind when that loved one is miles and
miles away, experience shared dream states, nor can a man stop
the hail from falling on a specific plot of land, call down rain
from heaven, walk through fire without being burned, call forth
water from dry wood, or cause an angelic army to suddenly be
visible to encourage the faithful or to terrify the enemy. All
these things occur only by the power of God, not by the power of
our own hand, although such things might occur corruptly in
diminished form, and in twisted counterfeit by power of
darkness, which can only lack eternal light and
consequence.[/quote]
There is a difficulty in this idea. Why doesn't God do anything
about evil then?
It is tempting to say He could but doesn't for reasons unknown
to us; but is that true? Or is it a dodge? Perhaps the human
race needs to do something. Perhaps God's given us everything
we need, including the power to change things, but we don't want
things changed? If we don't have something we need, it's
because we didn't want it enough to ask for it?
I recently saw a video where a man was claiming God would take
pounds off people by prayer. He said he saw one man lose 100
pounds. I doubt this. The man was stout himself; and he
also said people needed to resolve to eat better in the future.
But I doubt it all. God doesn't force anyone to overeat.
People might complain about their weight; but why should God
solve it for them?
It's harder to track down the spiritual causes of other
diseases. Take flu. Why do new strains usually start in Asia?
How does that relate to people in America? Does it relate?
The world is intricately put together. What people are doing
now in Nigeria and other African countries could affect our
weather later. It wouldn't surprise me if we have a bad
hurricane season this year. One is not predicted; but when I
look at Africa, I rather think one is possible. We will
continue to experience events that look random until mankind as
a whole obeys the Golden Rule. I think that includes some
diseases and plagues.
Do we care about the suffering of others in other countries?
Not enough, I'd say, so should we too surprised if disasters can
hit us in ways that seem inexplicable to us?
[quote]As I see things, to my understanding, on this earth, we
(mankind) have very limited power, governed by God's natural
laws set forth over the earth. God's moral law, as well as
God's natural law, which limits our power, is for our
protection, given by divine love. There is, I believe,
"supernatural" power to be grasped from the powers that be,
based upon our decision of on whom do we call? Whom do we
serve? Are we, in the eyes of God, ready and able to handle the
awesome gift of such divine power flowing from God through our
being, as Jesus, in His humanity, was ready? Will any man who
walks this earth ever be as 'ready' or as worthy as was Christ
to deliver such manifold displays of power to mankind, in the
awesome quantity of display that was borne of Jesus, here on
earth? [/quote]I'd say men already have that power in some part
and use it wrong, bringing chaos and confusion into the world.
We observe things like wars and crimes and readily accept them
as consequences of hate since we can see the connections; but we
don't see other things as consequences too.
Matthew 13:7 And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars,
be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end
shall not be yet.
8 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against
kingdom: and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and
there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of
sorrows.
I believe things like famines and earthquakes are also the
result of the same sins. These things will continue to plague
mankind until he wakes up and sees the disasters he's created in
this world -- including earthquakes, bird flu and all the rest.
Such disasters can affect the innocent as well as the guilty.
[quote]We must ask ourselves: Why and to what purpose did the
Father allow such bold display of intervention of "natural law"
through Jesus, in the form of a mere man, to be
exibited?![/quote]
Careful lest you want to become a Jew being impressed by the
miracles of Moses.
[quote] What conclusions do we come to concerning who Jesus is,
who we are, how we differ, and what is our will upon this earth
as compared to the will of Jesus while on this earth, as a man?
Why did God invest such supreme trust in Jesus? Why was Jesus
sent, in such a way that even His birth defied "natural law"?
What mere man, instead of an earthly father, has God as His
Father; what mere man is borne of a Virgin?![/quote]
What man can claim he did not have God as His Father at one
time?
#Post#: 2052--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 25, 2015, 9:17 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=242.msg2050#msg2050
date=1432591194]
[font=trebuchet ms]But then, what of:
John 3:36 (KJV)
36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he
that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of
God abideth on him.
Certainly the wrath of God is factual, according to the verse,
and manifests in various ways. ?
Don't we see the wrath of God on sinners throughout Scripture?
(I'd best stop and allow you to catch up, Kerry. You do make me
think. :) )[/font]
[/quote]In my way of thinking, the wrath of God is not meant to
punish people. God takes no delight in punishing people or
seeing them suffer.
It is meant to get them on the right track. You can think of
it as being like pain. Pain is very useful. If you had your
hand in a fire and couldn't feel pain, you might not notice
anything was wrong. Pain may feel like a punishment to us, but
its real purpose is to alert us to dangers.
Notice that John has it in the present tense, that the wrath of
God is abiding on these people here and now. If they never
believe, they will not see life in the future -- so the wrath
of God is on them now to try to steer them right. That's how I
read it.
Demons and even Satan can perform useful functions at times.
The idea that God is powerless to stop them is foolish, yet it
seems some believe God had a rebellion on His hands that He
couldn't handle. They can and do serve a purpose; and it is
far more important for us to find "the satan within" than to
imagine we are engaging in spiritual warfare with "the Satan out
there." There are times when I wonder if they're the same
thing -- with "the "Satan out there" being a part of ourselves
we refuse to own up to.
Very few demons would dare disobey the Law of Free Will. They
know what could happen to them if they did. They certainly
don't go around possessing people against their free will. I
think a demon or two bothering someone when his conscience is
also bothering him may be a good thing! People can invite such
things by refusing to acknowledge the good when they see it. A
little "wrath of God" may be good for them then, just as burning
your hand in a fire can teach you something if you don't learn
by being told by your parents.
Jude 1:22 And of some have compassion, making a difference:
23 And others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire;
hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.
#Post#: 2053--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 25, 2015, 9:53 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=242.msg2047#msg2047
date=1432580407]
[font=trebuchet ms]Kerry,
Do allow me to chew on your opening post awhile longer; the
above is more a sorting of my own thoughts, than a
thought-for-thought reply to your post, and I might have gone
off topic, although all seemed relevant as I wrote it. (Took me
a lifetime . . . ;) ) Will consider your OP more thoroughly, in
time. The concept of miracles is fascinating, and I definitely
believe they occur to this very day. What we believe concerning
them is important. All the power of God available to us stems
on our belief; we must believe that He exists, and that He can
do all He has done, is doing, and will do. Since we are His
hands and feet, much is, or could be done through us, I believe
within, or less often, outside of the given laws of nature.
Have statues of Our Lady truly wept, and did she truly appear to
help guide us to her Son, and intercede on our behalf? What
are the recorded miracles of various saints? What criteria,
according to the Church, constitute a miracle, and why? How
many, shall we say 'personal' miracles, occur that go
unrecorded? My guess is many.
Not sure you want to go into all these things, here. Please
advise if you want to remain within a certain scope.
Thanks![/font]
[/quote]What happened at Fatima is fascinating. But yes, at
times statues can weep and so on. However if exposed to the
idle gaze of too many people, such phenomena may cease over
time. The Orthodox Church has an icon, I believe of Mary, that
gives off myrrh; and it's been doing that for some time now, but
it's carefully guarded so few people see it. I am a little
concerned myself that the bones of Peter are on display now. If
they really are his bones, I would have advised keeping them
concealed; but Pope Francis is the Pope, not me. This could be
connected somehow with the prophecy of St. Malachy for all I
know -- perhaps it is right they be brought out now.
What happened at Fatima was completely non-physical. That is
easily seen by looking at the reports. Some people didn't see
anything. They didn't see it raining for example. Other
people saw it raining and saw mud, even getting their clothes
soiled. However when the manifestation was over and they
returned to "ordinary senses," there was no water, no mud, no
soil on their clothes. In physical terms then, nothing
happened.
What appears to have happened is that Our Lady opened the
spiritual eyes of some people for a while just as Elisha prayed
and had one person's eyes opened.
2 Kings 6:17 And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee,
open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of
the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of
horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
Elisha also played a trick on people:
18 And when they came down to him, Elisha prayed unto the Lord,
and said, Smite this people, I pray thee, with blindness. And he
smote them with blindness according to the word of Elisha.
19 And Elisha said unto them, This is not the way, neither is
this the city: follow me, and I will bring you to the man whom
ye seek. But he led them to Samaria.
20 And it came to pass, when they were come into Samaria, that
Elisha said, Lord, open the eyes of these men, that they may
see. And the Lord opened their eyes, and they saw; and, behold,
they were in the midst of Samaria.
Our Lady wasn't playing tricks on anyone at Fatima; but it seems
clear to me she chose not to override the physical senses of
everyone when she probably could have. Some people appear to
have been ready and willing to see while others were not.
But then too there are false manifestations that plague the
Catholic Church. Some person with an air of being pious says
there's been a miracle and sometimes there has been too; and the
more people believe in it, the more likely other things can be
manifest. They reveal themselves by preaching rebellion
against their Bishops; but the Bishops often have a hard time
figuring things out quickly and then stopping them. I can't
recall the girl's name; but she said she had a vision of Pope
John-Paul II burning in hell. Sad to say, she has her
followers. I don't know if there are any "miracles" associated
with her.
It's an area I find full of pitfalls. Some signs and wonders
seem to work for the good -- I see those as being from God.
Others seem to sow division -- and I see those as being from the
Dark Side. Then too there is the question of fraud in some
cases.
What do people make of Our Lady weeping? This may be meant for
judgment as well as to encourage us to pray for the things she
weeps over. Those who gawk and stare and say, "How wonderful,"
before going on to the next entertainment may be judged for
their callousness.
#Post#: 2054--------------------------------------------------
Re: Concerning Miracles
By: Kerry Date: May 25, 2015, 10:47 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
I forgot to finish the thought about the bread and fishes. If
we do not believe that things persist the way they seem to in
our concept of things, perhaps we could see that things can
appear and disappear at will. This is not a violation of
natural laws. Indeed what we as solid objects persisting in
time are constantly being projected into time and space by our
belief in them.
Give me a person under the age of 30 or so, and I think I could
have him seeing through things in a few hours. I've done this
in fact with an atheist. Things are not as solid as we
suppose. Maybe I could get an older person to do it too, but I
don't know. What I couldn't get him to do in most cases is to
make objects go away for other people. If they want things
there, odds are they'll be there for them even if someone else
can see through them as if they're not there for him.
Projecting an object and making it appear solidly and for others
is also possible but more difficult. The major reason we can't
do this is our double-mindedness. One part of us may want to do
it, but another part doesn't.
This has consequences; and I can't think of Jesus appearing to
anyone after his resurrection except to believers. He could
have, I think, but chose not to. He was disappointed how people
behaved over the bread and fishes; and I think he would have
been more disappointed had he appeared to sinners after the
Resurrection.
We may think of the Resurrection as being a great sign, and
perhaps it was; but it clearly was not meant as a sign to
everyone. If people don't want to believe in it, they can
wiggle their way out of believing. People have free will; and
if they don't want to believe in it, God isn't necessarily
going to force them to see evidence to the contrary -- if they
saw and still rejected it, they would be guilty of a sin they
aren't now. They do not know the truth so can't be judged for
rejecting it.
Sometimes too miracles look completely ordinary. God can do
things at times without rousing much attention from unbelievers.
I think this is the best kind of miracle.
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