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#Post#: 2020--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 23, 2015, 5:40 am
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--- Quote from: Twinc link ---
>
>
> Jesus Christ,the son and word of God spoke to Moses face to
face and mouth to mouth - twinc
>
--- End Quote ---
I don't think most traditional sources would agree with you.
There was some Orthodox Bishop who thought this; and he based
his idea largely on what Philo of Alexander had written. Philo
was unorthodox Jew, trying to reconcile Judaism with Greek
philosophy. He came up with the idea that "the angel of the
LORD" was the pre-incarnate Logos. This idea got adopted by
at least one prominent Orthodox Bishop (I forget his name) and
taken up also by Tertullian. Most Catholics did not take this
position.
The idea, of course, also was adopted by Jehovah's Witnesses.
I would never, never, never base any of my ideas on something
Philo of Alexandria wrote.
There is a troubling problem with this theory since there are
several passages which have it in the plural, "words of the
LORD." Can we believe that there were several Jesuses?
And how should we read this in the New Testament when Jesus
quotes the Old Testament:
Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man
shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Can we substitute "Jesus" there for "word of God" so it reads:
And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall
not live by bread alone, but by every Jesus.
#Post#: 2023--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: Twinc
Date: May 23, 2015, 8:24 am
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> I don't think most traditional sources would agree with you.
There was some Orthodox Bishop who thought this; and he based
his idea largely on what Philo of Alexander had written. Philo
was unorthodox Jew, trying to reconcile Judaism with Greek
philosophy. He came up with the idea that "the angel of the
LORD" was the pre-incarnate Logos. This idea got adopted by
at least one prominent Orthodox Bishop (I forget his name) and
taken up also by Tertullian. Most Catholics did not take this
position.
>
> The idea, of course, also was adopted by Jehovah's Witnesses.
I would never, never, never base any of my ideas on something
Philo of Alexandria wrote.
>
> There is a troubling problem with this theory since there are
several passages which have it in the plural, "words of the
LORD." Can we believe that there were several Jesuses?
>
> And how should we read this in the New Testament when Jesus
quotes the Old Testament:
>
> Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That
man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
>
> Can we substitute "Jesus" there for "word of God" so it reads:
>
> And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall
not live by bread alone, but by every Jesus.
>
--- End Quote ---
The I AM that was before Abraham imho was the I AM of the
burning bush of Moses or was the son with His feet up watching
whilst the ancient of days with the long white beard in the heat
and dust of the day making His way up Sinai to meet Moses - just
a thought why it must have been Christ - twinc
#Post#: 2028--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 23, 2015, 10:05 am
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Twinc link ---
>
> The I AM that was before Abraham imho was the I AM of the
burning bush of Moses or was the son with His feet up watching
whilst the ancient of days with the long white beard in the heat
and dust of the day making His way up Sinai to meet Moses - just
a thought why it must have been Christ - twinc
>
--- End Quote ---
Please don't be irreverent when speaking about God. It was the
angel of the LORD, not the LORD Himself.
Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a
flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and,
behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not
consumed.
Even when the Scriptures say "LORD" by itself, it often means
one of His angels -- or as in the case of Abraham, it was three
angels.
Do you think Jesus tried to kill Moses?
Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the
Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
#Post#: 2032--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: Twinc
Date: May 23, 2015, 11:04 am
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> Please don't be irreverent when speaking about God. It was
the angel of the LORD, not the LORD Himself.
>
> Exodus 3:2 And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a
flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and,
behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not
consumed.
>
> Even when the Scriptures say "LORD" by itself, it often means
one of His angels -- or as in the case of Abraham, it was three
angels.
>
> Do you think Jesus tried to kill Moses?
>
>
> why three angels for Abraham and only one for Moses and
Abraham bowed down to and adored angels - come now Abraham
rejoiced to see the son of God incarnate - if not is the angel
the I AM who was before Abraham was
>
>
> Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that
the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
>
--- End Quote ---
- who knows what the Lord seeks to do or not do - twinc
#Post#: 2036--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 23, 2015, 8:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
--- Quote from: Twinc link ---
>
> - who knows what the Lord seeks to do or not do - twinc
>
--- End Quote ---
I would think if God sought to kill someone, He couldn't be
stopped. That was not God Himself. Nor was it Jesus. It was
an angel, a fallen angel -- so say the Jews and I think so too.
When the Bible says "the LORD," it can mean almost anything.
Here we read that "wrath of the LORD" was kindled and "he" moved
David to count the people.
2 Samuel 24:1 And again the anger of the LORD was kindled
against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go,
number Israel and Judah.
Reading that, one might jump to conclusions and think God
tempted David. But not so. Elsewhere, it reads differently:
1 Chronicles 21:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and
provoked David to number Israel.
Both are correct. It is also right to say God tempts no one.
I don't see the value in trying to figure out if it was Jesus
talking with Moses. If you're right, how does that improve our
lives? Moses wrote what he did to show people how to live
better lives, not to instruct them or us on the "inner workings"
of God.
Deuteronomy 29:29 The secret things belong unto the LORD our
God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to
our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.
We can fall into harm by wanting to know the secret things.
Remember Eve? We may even forget to love God and our neighbor.
Eve forgot about her future progeny when she plucked the fruit.
#Post#: 2037--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: A nonny mouse
Date: May 24, 2015, 1:36 am
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--- Quote from: Kerry link ---
>
> When the Bible says "the LORD," it can mean almost anything.
>
--- End Quote ---
That is because those who took what has now been gathered
together and presented as a 'Bible', took their imaginings of
God having 'spoken to them' as being for universal dictate
(just like many continue so to do).
I think it generally to be presumptuous folly when anybody
presents their convictions of what 'God has said to them' as
being anything more than a 'personal' matter.
#Post#: 2040--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
DIR By: Kerry
Date: May 24, 2015, 5:56 am
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--- Quote from: A Trusting Deist link ---
>
> That is because those who took what has now been gathered
together and presented as a 'Bible', took their imaginings of
God having 'spoken to them' as being for universal dictate
(just like many continue so to do).
> I think it generally to be presumptuous folly when anybody
presents their convictions of what 'God has said to them' as
being anything more than a 'personal' matter.
>
--- End Quote ---
I wouldn't say that is always the case. I would say the Jews
did not like to use the names of angels or demons even when they
knew them. An inner circle maintained a tradition that had
names in some cases; but in order to prevent people invoking
these beings, their names were concealed. I'm still a little
astonished that the book of Daniel uses the name Michael. When
it comes to demons and the like, are we ever really told the
name of the chief demon? "Satan" is not a name, it's a title
that means the "accuser" -- and in Jewish courts, the prosecutor
attorney was called the satan.
When Jacob was wrestling the angel, we aren't told the name.
Indeed the angel refused to tell Jacob!
Tradition is also a key in interpreting some passages. Thus
Jewish tradition says Hagar did have a vision of an angel of the
LORD, but it was defective. We should not think she had
prophetic ability.
Nor should we even entertain the idea that the seventy
irreverent men who sat eating and drinking at Sinai, and
peering at their vision really had an accurate vision. Anyone
who thinks their vision was right should read:
Deuteronomy 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves;
for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord
spake unto you in Horeb out of the midst of the fire:
There is a certain rabbinical opinion too that says Jonah heard
the Voice of God but heard it wrong. God said Nineveh would be
overturned -- and it was, too, but not the way Jonah expected.
And too, the Jews do not say all their books are inerrant. In
fact, they'll point out places where they think they're wrong;
but they aren't going to "correct" the writings -- something it
seems later hands did to early Christian books.
The question is not if a prophet can hear totally accurately and
then write things down also totally accurately. The question is
if he can do the job well enough to succeed?
Saying everything is personal? Why would you say that?
Looking at Jonah again, we find he had earned a reputation of
being a proper prophet during the reign of Jeroboam II (2 Kings
14). The story goes however that he spoiled that reputation by
preaching to the people in Jerusalem that if they didn't repent,
they would be struck by disaster -- and he was then known as a
false prophet. Does that explain his reluctance to go to
Nineveh?
I believe too that Ezekiel wasn't embraced at once as a prophet
until one of his prophecies came true. I think he described
something in Jerusalem -- and news came later verifying it.
Israel was told to be skeptical about people who popped up
claiming to be prophets.
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