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#Post#: 1931--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Twinc Date: May 17, 2015, 8:37 am
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=215.msg1926#msg1926
date=1431825556]
My guess is it would be Joshua who followed Moses just as Jesus
followed the John the Baptist. The name is even the same. Who
is qualified to say this? In school, sometimes teachers would
grade tests 100%, as completely right. I understand that. The
teacher knew all the answers and could grade our tests; but what
human knows all the answers so he can grade the Bible and give
it a 100% grade?
[/quote]
it behoves all Christians to accept that as the word of God all
Scripture is totally inerrant - btw Jesus did not follow John
the Baptist - twinc
#Post#: 1933--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Kerry Date: May 17, 2015, 10:10 am
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[quote author=Twinc link=topic=215.msg1931#msg1931
date=1431869827]
it behoves all Christians to accept that as the word of God all
Scripture is totally inerrant
[/quote]The idea of the Bible as inerrant was a Protestant
invention to justify breaking with Rome, saying they did not
need Tradition but could determine truth solely from the Bible.
The official traditional position of the Catholic Church before
that was that the Bible was infallible, not inerrant. Some
famous theologians had asserted it was infallible; but that was
not part of Church dogma. When the Protestants began saying
this, the Catholics found it awkward to say, "Wait, there are
errors in it." It was still be debated at Vatican II.
[quote]- btw Jesus did not follow John the Baptist -
twinc[/quote]
According to the Bible, he came after John. Certainly he
followed John.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before
the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but
there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose
shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
John played a critical role. It was necessary for him to come
first.
If people say the Bible is inerrant, I suspect they either
haven't read it or can't recall what they read. Which is it
here? Do you think the Bible teaches that Jesus came before
John?
#Post#: 1935--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Twinc Date: May 17, 2015, 3:16 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=215.msg1933#msg1933
date=1431875444]
The idea of the Bible as inerrant was a Protestant invention to
justify breaking with Rome, saying they did not need Tradition
but could determine truth solely from the Bible. The official
traditional position of the Catholic Church before that was that
the Bible was infallible, not inerrant. Some famous
theologians had asserted it was infallible; but that was not
part of Church dogma. When the Protestants began saying this,
the Catholics found it awkward to say, "Wait, there are errors
in it." It was still be debated at Vatican II.
According to the Bible, he came after John. Certainly he
followed John.
Malachi 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before
the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord:
John 1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but
there standeth one among you, whom ye know not;
27 He it is, who coming after me is preferred before me, whose
shoe's latchet I am not worthy to unloose.
John played a critical role. It was necessary for him to come
first.
If people say the Bible is inerrant, I suspect they either
haven't read it or can't recall what they read. Which is it
here? Do you think the Bible teaches that Jesus came before
John?
[/quote]
John it seems did his own thing and did not follow Jesus in fact
he even told his own followers to follow Jesus who said the
least real Christian is greater than John - twinc
btw the Catholic Church states the Bible is totally inerrant in
all its parts but it is only our English Catholic Bishops in
their recent 'The Gift of Scripture' in conflict with Church
teaching that say it is only partially inerrant - twinc
#Post#: 1936--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Kerry Date: May 17, 2015, 4:02 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Twinc link=topic=215.msg1935#msg1935
date=1431893763]
John it seems did his own thing and did not follow Jesus in fact
he even told his own followers to follow Jesus who said the
least real Christian is greater than John - twinc[/quote]
The definition I found of "follow" is: " to come or go after; or
proceed behind."
HTML http://www.thefreedictionary.com/follow
Can we drop this please? John came first, and Jesus came after
-- so what is this squabble about?
[quote]btw the Catholic Church states the Bible is totally
inerrant in all its parts but it is only our English Catholic
Bishops in their recent 'The Gift of Scripture' in conflict with
Church teaching that say it is only partially inerrant -
twinc[/quote]I tell you it was still being debated at Vatican
II.
HTML https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8441
On October 2, 1964, Cardinal Franz König of Vienna spoke before
the Council Fathers on behalf of all the German-speaking
bishops' conferences, stating that the Bible does, in fact,
contain errors of science, history and incorrectly-attributed
quotations. He then proceeded to provide several examples of
apparent contradictions and misinformation.12 Of König's
intervention, Cardinal Alois Grillmeier writes,
His speech mentioned a few examples [of errors]: according to Mk
2:26 David had entered the house of God under the high priest
Abiathar and eaten the bread of the Presence. In fact, however,
according to 1 Sam 21:1 ff., it was not under Abiathar, but
under his father Abimelech. In Matthew 27:9 we read that in the
fate of Judas a prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled. In fact it
is Zech 11:12 f. that is quoted. In Dan 1:1 we read that King
Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of King
Jehoiakim, i.e. 607 B.C., but from the authentic chronicle of
King Nebuchadnessar that has been discovered we know that the
siege can only have taken place three years later."13
One can go on and on with the errors in the Bible. The Jews
will frankly tell you the Old Testament contains some errors.
How peculiar then when the Protestants jumped up and said all
the books they had gotten from the Jews were inerrant; and then
the Catholics followed suit a few hundred years later.
Honestly now, if you believe the Bible is without errors, then
either you haven't read it or you didn't remember what you read.
Why not start with Acts 7 where the speech of Stephen is
clearly a later addition by someone who didn't know the land of
Israel or the Old Testament.
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of
glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in
Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
This contradicts Genesis.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in
Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed
him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Terah was still alive when Abraham left him behind in Haran.
14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all
his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
This also contradicts Genesis which says 70.
16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre
that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the
father of Sychem.
Wrong again, and anyone living in Israel then would have known
where Abraham's tomb was in Hebron -- it was and remains a
landmark. Jacob bought the field from Hamor, the father of
Shechem.
The whole speech is a later addition by some unknown Gentile
hand.
#Post#: 1938--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Twinc Date: May 18, 2015, 1:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=215.msg1936#msg1936
date=1431896556]
The definition I found of "follow" is: " to come or go after; or
proceed behind."
HTML http://www.thefreedictionary.com/follow
Can we drop this please? John came first, and Jesus came after
-- so what is this squabble about?
I tell you it was still being debated at Vatican II.
HTML https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=8441
On October 2, 1964, Cardinal Franz König of Vienna spoke before
the Council Fathers on behalf of all the German-speaking
bishops' conferences, stating that the Bible does, in fact,
contain errors of science, history and incorrectly-attributed
quotations. He then proceeded to provide several examples of
apparent contradictions and misinformation.12 Of König's
intervention, Cardinal Alois Grillmeier writes,
His speech mentioned a few examples [of errors]: according to Mk
2:26 David had entered the house of God under the high priest
Abiathar and eaten the bread of the Presence. In fact, however,
according to 1 Sam 21:1 ff., it was not under Abiathar, but
under his father Abimelech. In Matthew 27:9 we read that in the
fate of Judas a prophecy of Jeremiah was fulfilled. In fact it
is Zech 11:12 f. that is quoted. In Dan 1:1 we read that King
Nebuchadnezzar besieged Jerusalem in the third year of King
Jehoiakim, i.e. 607 B.C., but from the authentic chronicle of
King Nebuchadnessar that has been discovered we know that the
siege can only have taken place three years later."13
One can go on and on with the errors in the Bible. The Jews
will frankly tell you the Old Testament contains some errors.
How peculiar then when the Protestants jumped up and said all
the books they had gotten from the Jews were inerrant; and then
the Catholics followed suit a few hundred years later.
Honestly now, if you believe the Bible is without errors, then
either you haven't read it or you didn't remember what you read.
Why not start with Acts 7 where the speech of Stephen is
clearly a later addition by someone who didn't know the land of
Israel or the Old Testament.
2 And he said, Men, brethren, and fathers, hearken; The God of
glory appeared unto our father Abraham, when he was in
Mesopotamia, before he dwelt in Charran,
This contradicts Genesis.
4 Then came he out of the land of the Chaldaeans, and dwelt in
Charran: and from thence, when his father was dead, he removed
him into this land, wherein ye now dwell.
Terah was still alive when Abraham left him behind in Haran.
14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all
his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
This also contradicts Genesis which says 70.
16 And were carried over into Sychem, and laid in the sepulchre
that Abraham bought for a sum of money of the sons of Emmor the
father of Sychem.
Wrong again, and anyone living in Israel then would have known
where Abraham's tomb was in Hebron -- it was and remains a
landmark. Jacob bought the field from Hamor, the father of
Shechem.
The whole speech is a later addition by some unknown Gentile
hand.
[/quote]
all scripture is inspired by GOD[2 Tim 3:16 - all supposed
contradictions in the past have been refuted - twinc
#Post#: 1939--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Kerry Date: May 18, 2015, 6:24 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Twinc link=topic=215.msg1938#msg1938
date=1431973346]
all scripture is inspired by GOD[2 Tim 3:16 - all supposed
contradictions in the past have been refuted - twinc
[/quote]You're using circular reasoning. "How do I know the
Bible is true? It says so." You have also refuted nothing
since you explained nothing.
Moreover, Paul was writing about the Old Testament there.
2 Timothy 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy
scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation
through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
I don't think Timothy was reading the New Testament as a child.
Or do you think Timothy had copies of all the books in New
Testament including 1 and 2 Timothy as a child? I can imagine
his surprise getting letters from Paul and saying, "Why is Paul
writing this to me? Doesn't he know I read all this as a
child?"
Yes, all the books in Old Testament (the Protestant version, not
including the Deuterocanonical ones) were considered by Jews to
be inspired. That does not mean they are inerrant. Again your
logic is flawed since "inspired" does not mean "inerrant."
People sometimes can hear things but hear them wrong, thus they
make mistakes in writing down what they heard.
As for the Catholic view on what books belong in the
"Scripture," I am still amazed they believe the book of Judith
is inspired. That book was a historical novel, meant to be read
as fiction. It signals as much in the first line:
RSVCE -- Judith 1:1 In the twelfth year of the reign of
Nebuchadnez′zar, who ruled over the Assyrians in the great
city of Nin′eveh, in the days of Arphax′ad, who
ruled over the Medes in Ecbat′ana—
Was Nebuchadnezzar really the king of the Assyrians ruling from
the city of Nineveh? The Jews say this book is a historical
novel and that the opening line is meant to inform the reader
that it's fiction; but along came Christians and took it as a
serious book that was inspired, even perhaps "inerrant."
#Post#: 1940--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Piper Date: May 18, 2015, 6:33 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]Never mind . . .[/font]
#Post#: 1943--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Kerry Date: May 18, 2015, 8:58 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Piper link=topic=215.msg1940#msg1940
date=1431992007]
[font=trebuchet ms]Never mind . . .[/font]
[/quote]Yes, if Twinc has something to say, I wish he'd tell us
what he wanted to say. These other discussions are
distractions.
#Post#: 1955--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Twinc Date: May 19, 2015, 6:39 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=215.msg1943#msg1943
date=1432000707]
Yes, if Twinc has something to say, I wish he'd tell us what he
wanted to say. These other discussions are distractions.
[/quote]
twinc in the original post asked a simple question hoping for a
simple straightforward answer - btw are we to presume that Paul
like Peter and John and others was not and could not and must
not project into the future - btw the gospel as scripture
reached Roman England within three years of the Resurrection
having been copied in shorthand by Matthew as he went along -
update and read 'The Authenticity of the New Testament' - part 1
'the Gospels by Bill Cooper - bur lets just for now stay with
the original post and simple question - twinc
#Post#: 1956--------------------------------------------------
Re: Moses and Jesus ?
By: Kerry Date: May 19, 2015, 6:59 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Twinc link=topic=215.msg1955#msg1955
date=1432078760]
twinc in the original post asked a simple question hoping for a
simple straightforward answer - btw are we to presume that Paul
like Peter and John and others was not and could not and must
not project into the future -[/quote]
Oh Lord, what did I do to deserve this? [quote]btw the gospel
as scripture reached Roman England within three years of the
Resurrection having been copied in shorthand by Matthew as he
went along - update and read 'The Authenticity of the New
Testament' - part 1 'the Gospels by Bill Cooper [/quote]
Never heard of him.
[quote]- bur lets just for now stay with the original post and
simple question - twinc
[/quote]I already answered it, and you chose to debate the
definition of "follow" instead.
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