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#Post#: 179--------------------------------------------------
A problem with time.
By: Edwin Date: December 3, 2014, 6:27 am
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A problem with time.
I once said,
I believe that Jesus was crucified on Thursday not Friday, for
the reasons given below.
Our Lord Jesus said that he would be in the grave for 3 days & 3
nights i.e. 72 hours, however, the Gospel accounts indicate a
period of only 37 hours at most. Can any one help me resolve
this.
Thank you
Edwin.
I was then asked the following question.
Please give the scripture verse where Jesus said three days and
three nights, and also state how you arrived at 37 hours.
Thank you for your questions. For 3 days and 3 nights, please
read,
Mat 12:40 For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in
the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three
days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
The 37 hours or thereabouts is arrived at as follows.
Read the four Resurrection accounts and you will find that our
Lord rose from the dead at around dawn on the first day of the
week i.e. 12 hours from the end of the Sabbath, then there are
24 hours during the Sabbath, and may be up to an hour on Friday.
In that part of the world, and at that time of the year sunset,
and sunrise were close to 6 pm and 6 am. Jesus was on the cross
from 9 am to 3 pm. Now read John Ch. 19 v 31.
There was about 3 hours to take down his body, prepare it for
burial, transport same to the tomb, replace the stone, and seal
it. I hope this helps you to understand my reasoning.
Allow me to suggest a possible solution. First of all look at
Exodus Ch 12 vs 1-20. And also Leviticus Ch 23 vs 4-8. Now what
are the salient points.
The Lamb is to be selected on the 10 th day, but not killed
until the 14 th day, why 4 days?, answer later on.
The Passover continues on into the Feast of unleavened bread
which is a feast of 7 days duration, with a Sabbath at each end.
Now what does this teach me about the week in which our Lord
allowed himself to be killed.
That there are 2 Sabbaths in this week, the Sabbaths are at the
start, and finish, ie the first, and last, the alpha, and omega.
Speaking of the Lord God himself.
What is leaven but a picture of sin, therefore no leaven
indicates no sin, what is the duration of this feast, 7 days,
what does 7 indicate, Divine perfection ie no sin..
So the lamb points forward to the time when the Lord God
himself, who is sinless will lay down his life during a week
which has 2 Sabbaths in it.
Now let us see if the Gospel accounts indicate a 2nd Sabbath
that week. Look first at John Ch. 19 v 31. "For that Sabbath was
a special Sabbath" why special?, could this suggest an
additional Sabbath that week, well now look at Matt Ch. 28 v 1.
Here is a problem as most English translations read Sabbath, but
have a look at the Greek text, and you will find that it is a
plural noun ie Sabbaths.
Now if we assume that Friday was the other Sabbath, and move the
crucifixion back to Thursday, then we have 3 nights, but only
some 61 hours, and still not 72 hours, however if you use Divine
time measurement, and not human time measurement, ie "There was
evening,and there was morning one day" and I can find 3
evenings, and 3 mornings then I will have 3 days.
There is Thursday evening, Friday evening, and Saturday evening,
Friday morning, Saturday morning, and Sunday morning 3 days.
Now what about that 4 days I mentioned earlier, if our Lord was
killed on Thursday, then what day is 4 days earlier?, Palm
Sunday of course.
The Triumphal Entry and what else was also happening on that
same day, every family in the land was choosing the lamb to be
killed, and now that Jesus had presented himself to the Leaders
of the Nation they had four days in which to examine him to see
if there was any blemish, or spot, and when they could find
none, kill him.
May the Lord bless you all ,and keep you safe.
Edwin.
#Post#: 182--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Kerry Date: December 3, 2014, 7:07 am
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I believe Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday.
John is the one who talks about it being a "high sabbath" that
was arriving. That would have been the Passover itself since
such days were called "high sabbaths."
John also presents Jesus as the Passover lamb which was killed
the day before Passover. From those details so far, it's
impossible to say what day of the week it would have been; but
we have other clues.
Notice that none of the Gospels say Jesus was resurrected in the
early morning. That's a popular idea; but the texts say that
he was already out of the tomb before sunrise on the first day
of the week -- our Sunday.
If he was buried right before sunset and if he was in the tomb
72 hours, then he would have come out also right before sunset.
That places the crucifixion on a Wednesday. Say sunset was
about 6 PM as you suggested. He would have buried sometime
before 6 PM then on Wednesday. Count forward three days and
three nights, and you arrive at his coming out of the tomb
sometime before 6 PM on Saturday. If we that is true, then we
can also say he entered the Eternal Rest on the Sabbath itself;
but then also appeared early on the first day of the week -- a
new type of Light had appeared on Day One.
Why wouldn't Mary Magdalene have gone earlier to the tomb?
Thursday was the day of Passover, a high Sabbath. No work was
to be done. Friday was the day of preparation for the weekly
Sabbath. People had to get things done on Friday to get ready
for the weekly Sabbath.
Saturday was, of course, the weekly Sabbath, and she wouldn't
have gone then. That gives us Sunday morning as her first
opportunity.
Some say it doesn't mean 72 hours. I think it does. I see no
reason to doubt it.
Compare this also to the statement in Revelation where the two
witnesses lie in the streets for three and a half days. Why
that long? Why not the three days and three nights like Jonah
and Jesus? Well, we can see that if the theory above is
right, Jesus was "out of human sight" for 84 hours, but he was
not "dead" that whole time.
#Post#: 183--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 3, 2014, 9:35 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=21.msg182#msg182
date=1417612040]
I believe Jesus was crucified on a Wednesday.
[/quote]
Rightly or wrongly Christ's actual "yielding up of the ghost"
and his resurrection three days later on the 'eighth' day of the
week is one of the deepest foundational doctrines of Catholicism
and of the established Christian Church.
The earliest excavated remnants of a Christian church show it to
have been built on the basis of an octagon, the oldest surviving
baptismal fonts are octagonal, with seven of the sides depicting
each of the Church's sacraments, and the eighth depicting the
resurrection, columns, pulpits, and lecterns are octagonal,
window reveals are at 135 degrees, etc.
Christ's resurrection on a seventh day sabbath is the essence of
the SDA and other sabbatarian denominations. and may be the
essence of Judaism (but I'm guessing on that).
#Post#: 184--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Deborah Date: December 4, 2014, 1:03 am
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[quote]Our Lord Jesus said that he would be in the grave for 3
days & 3 nights i.e. 72 hours,[/quote]
But if "3 days and 3 nights" is an idiomatic expression, it
doesn't necessarily mean 72 hours.
In some languages, 'the other day' means specifically the day
before yesterday; whereas in English it is a much vaguer time
reference.
[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=21.msg183#msg183
date=1417664145]
Christ's resurrection on a seventh day sabbath is the essence of
the SDA and other sabbatarian denominations. and may be the
essence of Judaism (but I'm guessing on that).
[/quote]
Really? I've never heard of the SDAs believing that Christ was
resurrected on the Saturday. And the Jews don't believe that He
was resurrected at all, surely?
#Post#: 186--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Alfie Date: December 4, 2014, 1:39 am
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please pardon my posts if you fell they are off topic ;
as i will say them once;
and just for pondering
the verse says 3 days
and now we have 2 possibilities
1- we can look for proof
2- we can look for the meaning of 3 days
while it may be good to prove the 3 days
if we do this ; we have proof that "they" didn't lie ------- lol
but if ; ( and only if we care to look and ponder)
maybe the lesson behind all of this
isn't if we caught them in a lie ( or not)
but rather what was intended behind the 3 days
remember ; God didn't have to keep Jonah in the whale for 3 days
except he was teaching a lesson here
and i am sure Jesus could have stayed longer in the grave ( or
shorter)
if it where not for the lesson of the 3 days
now as for me ; the lesson of the 3 days is not one i know as of
yet;
but several other lessons of this sort have come to revelation
from what seems to be an issue ; but talking what is said ; and
asking ... and
the answer seems to be different that what "sounds good" at the
beginning
*** lol; i should have put this under Helen's topic " deep
convictions "
#Post#: 188--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Ivor1 Date: December 4, 2014, 1:52 am
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Reading some replies I wonder how long has the Jewish Sabbath
begun on Sunday morning.. it is sundown Friday until sundown
Saturday. God's days start in darkness after which comes the
dawn and the light which lasts until darkness again
#Post#: 194--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Kerry Date: December 4, 2014, 7:04 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=21.msg183#msg183
date=1417664145]
Rightly or wrongly Christ's actual "yielding up of the ghost"
and his resurrection three days later on the 'eighth' day of the
week is one of the deepest foundational doctrines of Catholicism
and of the established Christian Church.[/quote]Who says they're
right? One Easter morning, I was driving by a Methodist church
and they were having a sunrise service. I had to resist the
temptation to get out of my car, dash over and proclaim to the
solemn gathering, "He is not here, for he is risen." The
Scriptures do not say when Jesus came out of the tomb. They say
only that he was not in it before sunrise on Sunday morning.
And don't forget there is no punctuation in the original Greek.
Some English Bibles give the wrong impression by putting a comma
in the wrong place.
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the
week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had
cast seven devils.
Is that really where the comma should go? Or should it read:
Mark 16:9 Now when Jesus was risen, early the first day of the
week he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had
cast seven devils.
The second is definitely right because we were told earlier the
party arrived right at sunrise. Choosing the first option is
pure speculation.
The church got sidetracked early about many things. People even
do not realize the importance of what happened between the time
Jesus talked to Mary Magdalene when he told her not to touch him
and when he talked to Thomas and told him to touch him.
[quote]The earliest excavated remnants of a Christian church
show it to have been built on the basis of an octagon, the
oldest surviving baptismal fonts are octagonal, with seven of
the sides depicting each of the Church's sacraments, and the
eighth depicting the resurrection, columns, pulpits, and
lecterns are octagonal, window reveals are at 135 degrees,
etc.[/quote]I'd like to know where this church is so I could
research it. Being a skeptic, I have to doubt any such church
exists. I doubt it for more than one reason. A major reason is
that matrimony was not considered a sacrament in the early
church. I haven't researched all the others on the current
list of seven sacraments; but that was not part of original
Christianity. Things change, and people just tend to assume
things are today the way they always were. Today many Catholics
and Protestants talk about marriage being a covenant. I
scratch my head. That's a really recent idea, and I forget who
invented it; but the Catholics picked it up and have rolled with
it. They even put it into the Catechism!
So I really doubt some ancient church had seven sides depicting
the seven sacraments with the eighth devoted to the
resurrection. Oh, don't get me wrong. I believe there may
have been octagonal churches. Constantine built one. They may
have associated the number 8 with Sunday too; but I doubt the
bit about the seven sacraments.
I also have to wonder why if this was so significant it was
abandoned in favor of the cross-shaped church ?
[quote]Christ's resurrection on a seventh day sabbath is the
essence of the SDA and other sabbatarian denominations. and may
be the essence of Judaism (but I'm guessing on that).[/quote]
Oh, I may not want to think as I do then! If the SDA believes
something, it has to be wrong! :) I can't say I know what
they believe about it. Nor would I care if people chose to
observe Tuesdays as their day for meeting if that is what is
convenient for them. I don't think we should be too strict
about making rules; but if the SDA honor Jesus that way, it's
fine with me just as it is if most Christians think they honor
him by meeting on Sundays.
I say the Sabbath was made for "Adam" or "Man" and Jesus
observed it as Adam and others should have -- by entering the
perpetual rest. Then another week began. And God said, "Let
there be light." For the evening, there was no new light seen
-- but it appeared in the morning. It is this new Light which
we should honor on Sundays if we want to keep that day.
Backtracking now: On Thursday, the fifth day, Jesus went to
both Paradise (upper waters) where the thief went. Jesus also
went to preach to souls in hell (lower waters). On Friday, the
sixth day, the process of becoming the correct spiritual man
occurred. On Saturday, he rested; and on Sunday, he appeared
as the New Light.
#Post#: 195--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Kerry Date: December 4, 2014, 7:12 am
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Deborah link=topic=21.msg184#msg184
date=1417676594]
But if "3 days and 3 nights" is an idiomatic expression, it
doesn't necessarily mean 72 hours.
In some languages, 'the other day' means specifically the day
before yesterday; whereas in English it is a much vaguer time
reference.[/quote]Yes, this is right. It doesn't have to mean
72 hours. I happen to think it does in this case; but there are
other places in the Bible where the idiomatic expression is used
and "one day and one night" can't mean 24 hours.
#Post#: 197--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 4, 2014, 12:22 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=21.msg194#msg194
date=1417698267]
I'd like to know where this church is so I could research it.
Being a skeptic, I have to doubt any such church exists. I
doubt it for more than one reason. A major reason is that
matrimony was not considered a sacrament in the early church.
[/quote]
I didn't say that the early excavated church had an octagonal
font depicting the seven sacraments of the early church plus the
resurrection on the eighth; only that it was constructed on the
basis of an octagon.
I can't now find the link to the site where I first read about
it with greater description of its octagonal basis but
HTML http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9950210/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/archaeologists-unveil-ancient-church-israel#.VIClOTGsWOk<br
/>is similar, and shows eight depictions around the ancient
Christian symbol of the fish.
#Post#: 199--------------------------------------------------
Re: A problem with time.
By: Kerry Date: December 4, 2014, 2:27 pm
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=21.msg197#msg197
date=1417717360]
I didn't say that the early excavated church had an octagonal
font depicting the seven sacraments of the early church plus the
resurrection on the eighth; only that it was constructed on the
basis of an octagon.[/quote]I misread you, sorry.
[quote]I can't now find the link to the site where I first read
about it with greater description of its octagonal basis but
HTML http://www.nbcnews.com/id/9950210/ns/technology_and_science-science/t/archaeologists-unveil-ancient-church-israel#.VIClOTGsWOk<br
/>is similar, and shows eight depictions around the ancient
Christian symbol of the fish.
[/quote]I 'm not sure what that means. There is a theory that
Taoism was heavily influenced by Nestorian missionaries. It
does share certain ideas with Christianity. That mosaic even
bears a slight resemblance to the bagua symbol of Feng Shui.
HTML http://www.fengshuidesign.ws/media/bagua.gif
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