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#Post#: 373--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 11, 2014, 5:45 am
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=20.msg364#msg364
date=1418263977]
The OP asks:-
a) would every member of your race be tormented in hellfire for
eternity?
b) would some or all end up in God's New Jerusalem?
c) and if the answer is 'some' then what would determine the
distinction?
[/quote]
I don't think any would end up in hell fire for eternity.
Mike HM
#Post#: 376--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Kerry Date: December 11, 2014, 7:44 am
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Thoughts on Cain and Abel.
Eve said she had gotten a man from the LORD. How so? Did God
send her such a wild man? I say yes.
Was Cain blind? I wouldn't say that; but let's say he was or
say he had his problems. Why would God send such a child to
Eve? Why, so he could be healed of his problems, of course.
John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind
from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this
man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents:
but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
If we humans were already perfect, God would be wasting time
sending us here to the earth to learn things. After all, life
here isn't that easy. So what are we to learn? How are we to
be healed?
We see God warning Cain, wanting Cain to avoid sin. We also see
Cain wanting to have God's approval but stumbling at doing what
it would take to get it. Are we ever like that, I ask? And
we see also Cain downcast and God forgiving him and even
protecting him. I see the Love of God in this. God surely
wanted Cain to come to repentance after sinning and was not
willing that any should perish.
What about Abel then? If we see how merciful God was with
Cain, can we believe He would be less merciful with Abel?
If two sinners Tom and Joe get drunk in a bar and Tom kills
Joe, what happens? Some say Joe would go to hell and burn
eternally, and then also say that if Tom "finds Jesus" in
prison, he would be forgiven of the sin of murder and go to
Heaven to eternal bliss. Can that possibly be right? Joe
meanwhile can never be forgiven of any of his sins. He wasn't
a murderer, but he will be punished since Tom murdered him. I
ask if that is conceivable? Could God operate like that? You
know better. It can't be like that.
What happens to babies who are murdered? Do they go to eternal
bliss in Heaven? If so, wouldn't abortion be a good deed?
Wouldn't killing babies be good? Even sacrificing them to
demons? God would take them to eternal bliss. I say killing
babies is a sin. They are intended to be born so they can be
made whole, so that the works of God can be made manifest in
them. By killing them, we are cheating them out of that
opportunity.
And what about "knowing Jesus"? What about if Jesus knows us?
Did Jesus know Abel? Jesus pronounced Abel "righteous" so
that's good enough evidence for me that Jesus would not allow
Abel to be condemned because his brother killed him.
#Post#: 378--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 11, 2014, 8:28 am
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Goodness DM - you're talking like a universalist :D
I like the bar brawl scenario. Another hole in the idea of
eternal punishment.
And there are lessons to be leaned from Cain and Abel, as you
say.
Regards,
Mike HM
#Post#: 379--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Kerry Date: December 11, 2014, 12:22 pm
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=20.msg378#msg378
date=1418308136]
Goodness DM - you're talking like a universalist :D
I like the bar brawl scenario. Another hole in the idea of
eternal punishment.
And there are lessons to be leaned from Cain and Abel, as you
say.
Regards,
Mike HM
[/quote]Yes, I think what Eve said about Cain was very
interesting. How could such a "bad boy" be from God?
Jesus said all the Torah was about love, right? How to
explain this then?
Genesis 4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubalcain, an instructer
of every artificer in brass and iron: and the sister of
Tubalcain was Naamah.
That looks foolish, doesn't it? Why are we told about
someone's sister in such a way? One explanation I found is
that Moses wanted us to know that Naamah was a descendant of
Cain; and that becomes important if we believe that Noah
married her as the Oral Tradition of the Jews says. This would
show how God was anxious to provide salvation for every nation,
tribe, etc. Even the seed of Cain needed to be preserved in the
Flood so mankind would be complete without missing nations,
tribes, etc. I believe Naamah was married to Noah since I
can see the Love of God in the verse if I believe that. While I
know I don't know for sure, nevertheless I am persuaded this is
right since it shows the Love of God for Cain and his
descendants. This also makes me love God more.
#Post#: 380--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Helen Date: December 11, 2014, 12:49 pm
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Amen...good posts and 'food for thought' D.M.
#Post#: 382--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 11, 2014, 6:07 pm
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I like that! ;)
#Post#: 421--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Amadeus Date: December 13, 2014, 9:35 pm
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=20.msg176#msg176
date=1417591129]
If you were in a remote part of our world, racially isolated
from 'civilisation', speaking a language other than English,
without education to inform you about other peoples and their
religions, and consequently died without ever reading a Bible or
hearing about Christ,
a) would every member of your race be tormented in hellfire for
eternity?[/quote]
[font=courier]A verse to consider in this is one I have used
many times on various forums:
"But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes,
shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is
given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have
committed much, of him they will ask the more." Luke 12:48
The ones you speak of who never read a Bible were given less and
less was required of them as would have been the case with some
the apparently better OT believers. The actual rendering of a
fair judgment for such people by you or by me usually wouldn't
be possible, because usually we don't know they what have been
given and we don't know what they have done with what they have
been given.[/font]
[quote]Such a situation in not utterly hypothetical so who is
bold enough to answer those three questions?
And do they draw you towards universalism or towards separatism?
[/quote]
[font=courier]The questions are hypothetical when generalized
for we do not know enough about any real specific people to make
a final binding judgment... or at least I do not. I recall
meeting a man who spoke only Spanish and was illiterate in all
written languages. He had, of course, never read a Bible. In
spite of that he definitely had a better testimony as a
follower of Jesus than many Bible readers I have met. How can we
judge? And if we cannot judge how can we definitely answer?
[/font]
#Post#: 434--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Helen Date: December 14, 2014, 1:27 pm
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[quote]quote John.."But he that knew not, and did commit things
worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto
whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to
whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
Luke 12:48
[/quote]
Amen agree..God is gracious...as I see it punishment for our
choices will be meeted out ( I am pretty sure it isn't stripes,
beatings, and such) ..those who chose against their conscience
will pay some price. There is indeed some "hell" to pay...but
not as it has been taught.
The Refiners Fire will 'touch' every one of us.
PS...love the avatar. :)
#Post#: 439--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 15, 2014, 12:16 am
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[quote author=Helen link=topic=20.msg434#msg434 date=1418585241]
Amen agree..God is gracious...as I see it punishment for our
choices will be meeted out ( I am pretty sure it isn't stripes,
beatings, and such) ..those who chose against their conscience
will pay some price. There is indeed some "hell" to pay...but
not as it has been taught.
The Refiners Fire will 'touch' every one of us.
PS...love the avatar. :)
[/quote]
I have to say that the longer I contemplate 'born againers' who,
apart from attending 'church', reading the bible, and saying
prayers, live lives that are indistinguishable from the lives of
'good living' unbelievers, the more I am drawn toward having to
believe in 'ultimate reconciliation for all'.
I just can't accept that such a basis of being 'born again' can
determine one's ultimate eternal destiny.
It's all very well saying that only a 'few' are chosen, and that
even so they are out of only the many (no all) who are
called.....and it's all very well saying that the road to
eternal life is narrow and 'few' there be that find it......but
who is so bold as to say "I am one of those few'.
Certainly I cannot see sufficient in myself (either by faith or
by works) to mark me out as one of a 'few'......leaving me with
'universal reconciliation for all' as my only 'hope'.
PS We have Danger Mouse to thank for the avatar, and me for
sizing and 'editing' it. (as I have done for yours)
#Post#: 442--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 15, 2014, 8:30 am
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[quote author=Amadeus link=topic=20.msg421#msg421
date=1418528109]
[font=courier]The questions are hypothetical when generalized
for we do not know enough about any real specific people to make
a final binding judgment... or at least I do not. I recall
meeting a man who spoke only Spanish and was illiterate in all
written languages. He had, of course, never read a Bible. In
spite of that he definitely had a better testimony as a
follower of Jesus than many Bible readers I have met. How can we
judge? And if we cannot judge how can we definitely answer?
[/font]
[/quote]
They are hypothetical and generalised. Its true. But still
valuable. How else can you test your theology but to ask
questions of it?
Based on what we know, from our reading of the Bible, quiet
times, teaching and preaching we've heard etc - what is the
answer to the questions?
There are some, like me, who say that death is not the deciding
moment for people and their ultimate destination. I have no
problem answering the hypothetical question as my theology fully
supports the nature and character of God.
I have noticed in conversations with friends and people on the
internet, a resistance to answer hypothetical questions when
their theology doesn't seem to fully support the character of
God. Which to my mind suggests that their theology is suspect.
I do wonder if that's why you resisted answering the questions.
Dr Richard Beck raises questions like these in his little
article on moral luck click here for article
HTML http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.co.uk/2006/10/why-i-am-universalist-part-4-moral.html<br
/>(part 4 in a series of why he is a universalist). He doesn't
seem to find asking and answering questions like these to be
troublesome at all.
Kind regards,
Mike HH
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