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#Post#: 176--------------------------------------------------
Salvation~for some or for all?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 3, 2014, 1:18 am
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If you were in a remote part of our world, racially isolated
from 'civilisation', speaking a language other than English,
without education to inform you about other peoples and their
religions, and consequently died without ever reading a Bible or
hearing about Christ,
a) would every member of your race be tormented in hellfire for
eternity?
b) would some or all end up in God's New Jerusalem?
c) and if the answer is 'some' then what would determine the
distinction?
Such a situation in not utterly hypothetical so who is bold
enough to answer those three questions?
And do they draw you towards universalism or towards separatism?
#Post#: 247--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Ezra Date: December 6, 2014, 6:09 pm
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[quote author=A nonny mouse link=topic=20.msg176#msg176
date=1417591129]
[size=12pt]
If you were in a remote part of our world, racially isolated
from 'civilisation', speaking a language other than English,
without education to inform you about other peoples and their
religions, and consequently died without ever reading a Bible or
hearing about Christ,
a) would every member of your race be tormented in hellfire for
eternity? [/QUOTE]
Not a very likely scenario in this day and age. However,
Scripture is very clear -- "Except a man be born again, he
CANNOT see or enter into the Kingdom of God" (Jn 3:3-5). At the
same time God tells us that His creation points to Him (Rom
1:19-20) so those who would have a genuine desire to know the
Creator and Savior would also be provided with an opportunity to
hear the Gospel (Acts 17:15-34).
[QUOTE] b) would some or all end up in God's New Jerusalem?
[/QUOTE]
Those who obeyed the Gospel would be saved, and those who did
not or would not believe the Gospel would be damned (Mark
16:15,16; Jn 3:36).
[QUOTE] c) and if the answer is 'some' then what would determine
the distinction?[/QUOTE]
See John 1:12,13.
Universalism is a man-made doctrine which ignores the plain
teaching of Scripture. It is God's express will that ALL men
should repent and ALL should be saved, but only those who
believe the Gospel -- who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and
receive Him as Lord and Saviour -- will be saved.
#Post#: 259--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Helen Date: December 6, 2014, 10:58 pm
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Did Jesus Christ die to save sinners or did He die to make
salvation possible...
Most people believe salvation depends on them, on their ability
to believe...if that is the case then salvation depends on man
and not God...so it is "Jesus Plus"...
Salvation is not just a one shot deal..."he that endures unto
the end, the same shall be saved."
Can we do it? I don't think so. EVERYTHING is by the grace of
God..
Grace = God's ability in us, to do what we can't do.
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God ( how?)
by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall
be saved by His life."
#Post#: 273--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Kerry Date: December 7, 2014, 8:23 am
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=20.msg247#msg247 date=1417910953]
Not a very likely scenario in this day and age. However,
Scripture is very clear -- "Except a man be born again, he
CANNOT see or enter into the Kingdom of God" (Jn 3:3-5). At the
same time God tells us that His creation points to Him (Rom
1:19-20) so those who would have a genuine desire to know the
Creator and Savior would also be provided with an opportunity to
hear the Gospel (Acts 17:15-34).[/quote]Can you move like the
wind? If not, then you are not yet born again according to what
Jesus said to Nicodemus. I can move like the wind.
Those who obeyed the Gospel would be saved, and those who did
not or would not believe the Gospel would be damned (Mark
16:15,16; Jn 3:36).
See John 1:12,13.
Let me look those passages up.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and
preach the gospel to every creature.
The Gospel was preached to every creature according to Paul.
Okay.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that
believeth not shall be damned.
What does that word "damned" mean? The KJV usually translates
it as "condemns". It occurs 19 times in the New Testament; and
17 times the KJV translates it as "condemns." For some reason,
they translate it as "damns" twice. Therefore this passage is
not teaching that people who do not believe will be eternally
tortured.
John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:
and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the
wrath of God abideth on him.
This does not mention damnation. I wonder why you thought it
did.
[quote]Universalism is a man-made doctrine which ignores the
plain teaching of Scripture. It is God's express will that ALL
men should repent and ALL should be saved, but only those who
believe the Gospel -- who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and
receive Him as Lord and Saviour -- will be saved.
[/quote]You say "plain teaching" of Scripture; but it seems to
me that your own understanding of the Scriptures is not that
clear. Your ideas seem based more on a tradition of men to me
than on the Scriptures.
If God's Will is that all should repent and be saved, I
wouldn't give up on humanity too fast, imagining that most men
will be damned. After all, a thousand years is as a day to the
LORD.
As for receiving Jesus as Savior? I'd emphasize myself just
receiving him.
Matthew 18:4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this
little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name
receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe
in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about
his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
#Post#: 354--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: HappyHeretic Date: December 10, 2014, 9:32 am
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[quote author=Ezra link=topic=20.msg247#msg247 date=1417910953]
Universalism is a man-made doctrine which ignores the plain
teaching of Scripture. It is God's express will that ALL men
should repent and ALL should be saved, but only those who
believe the Gospel -- who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and
receive Him as Lord and Saviour -- will be saved. [/quote]
Plain teaching of scripture? Lets give it a try ...
"... jsut as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all
people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and
life for all people."
Seems plain enough to me :D
Mike HM
#Post#: 356--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Kerry Date: December 10, 2014, 9:49 am
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[quote author=HereticMouse link=topic=20.msg354#msg354
date=1418225559]
Plain teaching of scripture? Lets give it a try ...
"... jsut as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all
people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and
life for all people."
Seems plain enough to me :D
Mike HM
[/quote]It may also be a question if we believe God's Will will
ever be done on earth as it is Heaven. Ezra wrote:
[quote]It is God's express will that ALL men should repent and
ALL should be saved, but only those who believe the Gospel --
who believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and receive Him as Lord
and Saviour -- will be saved.[/quote]
I am compelled to ask if God then created a world in which it
was impossible that His Will be done?
#Post#: 359--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Alfie Date: December 10, 2014, 1:19 pm
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[quote author=Danger Mouse link=topic=20.msg356#msg356
date=1418226541]
It may also be a question if we believe God's Will will ever be
done on earth as it is Heaven. Ezra wrote:
I am compelled to ask if God then created a world in which it
was impossible that His Will be done?
[/quote]
just talking out loud here;
if God created a world in which .... ETC ...
did he ?
or are the things we are talking about here ....
the fall ( falling away from that first created world ) ?
your father is the devil ....
do you think this was because these people "chose" Satan him as
their father sometime after they where born?
or was it they where born with Satan as their father ?
weren't all mankind born the same way?
IMO;
the actions of Satan caused all of mankind who were born to be
born blind
"out of the family of God"
now comes the question ... how can this person be saved?
the answer for them , the answer for us
is what this story is all about
and that answer is JESUS
SO WHAT DID HE DO? WHY DOES IT MATTER? HOW DOES IT WORK?
this is the gospel story
but the question here is WHAT ABOUT THE GUY WHO HAS NEVER HEARD
THIS
many (NOT ALL) are invited
so if it bothers you ( anyone) go tell him
invite him
but it still requires
few ( have chose and believe ) are chosen
a story
there was once a young man, a teenager
who became a victim of his brothers rage
and was killed before he heard of Jesus
i wonder if God had a way for him?
his name was Abel
i don't think the plan of God can be surrounded and contained in
the doctrines and opinions of mankind
and i for one ; like it that way
#Post#: 360--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Helen Date: December 10, 2014, 4:05 pm
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So...are we all saying that Salvation...which God intended from
the beginning..is indeed for all? Salvation from darkeness into
LIGHT!
#Post#: 364--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: A nonny mouse Date: December 10, 2014, 8:12 pm
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The OP asks:-
a) would every member of your race be tormented in hellfire for
eternity?
b) would some or all end up in God's New Jerusalem?
c) and if the answer is 'some' then what would determine the
distinction?
#Post#: 365--------------------------------------------------
Re: Salvation~for some or for all?
By: Ivor1 Date: December 10, 2014, 9:15 pm
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From Noah to Moses those people had nothing tangible to base
their faith but many still had a faith in God. Made in God's
image they still knew what pleased God or offended him. Adam
knew to hide his nakedness.
It ultimately comes down to what we think tormented in Hell
means, to some it's Dante's inferno but to me it's jailed in a
place where we cannot have a relationship with God at all and
that is the punishment. We are punished for choosing not to have
a relationship with God and God wisely gives us what we long for
(he answers our prayers). Over time in Hell we would then
acquire an unquenchable desire to taste one drop of God's
relationship. Punished into loving God (what a concept?)
So no! Why would God punish genuine ignorance? did Christ die
for all or only middle class church attendees?
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