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#Post#: 1825--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2015, 8:21 pm
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Chapter 2 is interesting. He tells us how he was "convicted" by
the sermon of a strict Pentecostal preacher. At least that's
what the minister told him. The pastor said. "What you need to
do is to accept Jesus Christ as your personal Savior." No one
at this church helped him in any way after that however, and
after about two weeks he returned to his "partying lifestyle."
No one at this Pentecostal church told him he needed the Holy
Spirit. Strange, isn't it? But he said he felt "light and
happy", then he returned to his life of sin. Repentance? I
wouldn't call that repentance, turning away from sin. I'd say
he felt guilty for his sins and wanted to believe everything was
fine without repenting.
Then at the age of seventeen, he went to another church which he
calls an "ultra-Holiness church." He says "These Holiness
people told me my Heavenly Father was doing the same thing my
natural father did to me -- punishing me for my mistakes. They
were teaching me legalism, but I didn't understand that."
Fascinating how he criticizes these Pentecostal churches! At the
age of thirty, he says he still felt as if he "deserved nothing
but punishment." I wonder if the people in these churches
spoke in tongues? If they did, how could they be as misguided
as he portrays them?
He also says he was baptized in the Holy Ghost shortly after
marrying his wife; but it seems maybe he didn't start speaking
in tongues until later. His story isn't clear on that point.
I thought they all believed everyone started speaking in tongues
as soon as you're baptized in the Holy Spirit.
What is fascinating however is that he had a vision that
prompted him to quit his job to become a minister. This was
before he started praying in tongues for hours. Yet he tells us
elsewhere that praying for hours in tongues is what brings about
these other gifts of the Spirit.
He tells a story then about visiting a non-Pentecostal church
where he is led by the Spirit to heal people. I'd like to know
more details before commenting on that story. But this meeting
is what taught him the message he preaches now. He says God
told him, "You have found smething you can do on purpose to
edify yourself -- as much as you want to, as long as you want
to, whenever you want to."
Ah, so it can be by works? Seems so.
How does he explain the fact that the disciples healed people
and cast out demons before Pentecost? How does he explain
having a vision before locking himself up and praying in tongues
for hours?
I don't know what to make of his story specifically; but I can
say this. I used to pray for hours every day, not in tongues,
but I did it. I was finally told to stop it. I was on the edge
of close to using black magic by thinking I could use prayer the
way I was. It was as if I was bringing a dark cloud down around
myself by my praying so much. Why? I was being more
self-righteous than loving.
I also believe I could have "forced" myself to learn how to
heal. I have a natural knack for such things, have had it since
I was a child. I wondered about it. I thought it would be a
good thing if I could heal sick people. What harm could come of
it? Yet I was never led into it. I believe God realized I
could fall into the sin of pride if I were given that gift; but
I also believe I could "prayed" for it and gotten it, but not
from God. No, I think the Dark Side would have answered that
prayer.
Roberson goes on, "After being so hungry for God's power for so
long, I had accidentally uncovered one of the most important
keys to growing in devil-stomping, mountain-moving faith --
praying in tongues for personal edification."
Oh Heaven help us. Not only is he being self-centered, he's
contradicting what he said before -- page 6 -- he said God
"formulated a perfect plan for you. . . ." Now he's saying God
told him, "Son, this anointing didn't suddenly come upon you
because it was predestined from the foundations of the world."
Now he's saying he accidentally ran across something that he can
choose to do whenever he wants to receive "personal edification"
and make no mistake of it, he was also "hungry for God's power"
too just as he wrote.
I shudder at people who seek knowledge so they can gain power,
if that is what was going on in his life; and from the way he
writes, I think it could be. To me, that is something like
black magic. To me, it's what Eve did. Power and knowledge
are good things if used in love. It is good to want power and
knowledge if our motive is to serve others.
#Post#: 1828--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 8, 2015, 11:17 pm
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[quote author=Kerry link=topic=182.msg1823#msg1823
date=1431124070]
The Bible often uses human language with human attributes in
talking about God, but we should not believe these are literally
so.
[/quote]
To me that sounds like justification for "talking about God" in
a non-human language (Pentecostal tongues)......... or for not
"talking about God".
I think someone once said that God was not well pleased with
being dissected and hung out to dry in Christian forums.........
and I believe 'that' someone eventually became Deistic in his
outlook.
#Post#: 1830--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2015, 11:55 pm
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=182.msg1828#msg1828
date=1431145023]
To me that sounds like justification for "talking about God" in
a non-human language (Pentecostal tongues)......... or for not
"talking about God".[/quote]
Why don't we begin with discussing consciences? I believe you
and I agree on this. I believe God speaks to us first and
foremost through our consciences. Where we may disagree is I
go further and say God may speak to people in other ways if they
heed what He says to them using their consciences. I also go
further to say that if someone is defiling his conscience and
believes he is hearing from God, he is either deluded or
chatting with demonic forces.
But back to consciences. You and I both agree, I think, that
our consciences do not use human language. It is a form of
knowingness -- without a chain of thoughts, without logical
reasoning, without words. One simply knows.
[quote]I think someone once said that God was not well pleased
with being dissected and hung out to dry in Christian
forums......... and I believe 'that' someone eventually became
Deistic in his outlook.[/quote]
It is more important to discern what "God is not" than to try to
pinpoint what "God is." Almost anything anyone can say about
God is untrue one way or another. Every argument put forward
to try to put God into a box may need to be defeated. Remove
the clutter of all our ideas about God and how our minds try to
put Him into a box, and then perhaps we will be able to "see"
the truth. Our current state is like trying to use a mirror
with dirt on it -- we see through that glass darkly. Too many
blobs of dirt -- too many ideas which are taken for reality.
Thus I am more interested in discussing what God cannot be
instead of trying to say what God is.
The Bible can be a curse if we take it by the letter. We
should read it and say when we think foolish thoughts, "No, that
can't be right." If you read that God used His finger to
write in stone and find it absurd, good for you. The first
idea that comes to mind is "literal" or "by the letter." It is
something to be dismissed as impossible. God is not like men
with a finger.
The correct understanding of the Bible involves the correct
understanding about God. If we have wrong ideas about God,
the Bible can destroy us if we do not reject the ideas we have.
Truly I would say the letter can kill.
What is the correct understanding about God? God is what God
is. God is. Trying to say more can lead to trouble.
So did God "create" a spiritual or Pentecostal language so he
could talk to Adam? If so, I wonder why God brought the animals
to Adam and had Adam name them? Can we believe God forgot to
include the names of the animals when He created this language
to talk to with Adam?
There is some evidence, of course, that Hebrew was being used in
the Mind of God at the time. Thus hadam (the man) was made out
of adamah (the earth). Thus too, the "a" of the Spirit was
added to the "dam" or blood. Some Jews say God speaks Hebrew;
and Revelation surely looks like they're speaking Hebrew there.
The best praise is silence. Psalm 65 says silence is praise;
but how that verse gets translated is truly astonishing.
HTML http://legacy.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Psalm%2065:1
I would think that those who speak in tongues would expect to
have them cease and then to hear "after the fire, a small still
voice." While they claim the baptism of fire and the
speaking in tongues, have they found the "small still voice"?
Why the constant agitation?
The praise that stuns us into silence is one witness of the
existence of God. There is another. When we see such evil that
it also stuns us into silence, that is also a witness to the
existence of God telling us "this should not be."
#Post#: 1836--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2015, 9:37 pm
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Roberson tells a story in chapter 3 about visiting a Katharyn
Kuhlman service. The detail I find interesting is that he hears
a voice calling his name and thinks at first it was his wife.
She shook her head no, she didn't say anything. He hears it
again, and looks around and but the man behind him is looking at
the service. The third time he hears his name being called,
he asks the man behind him what he wants; and the man says he
didn't say anything. The voice comes back a fourth time and
says, "This is what I have for you."
His first instinct is that it wasn't God speaking to him. He
thought it was the Devil. Later he decided it was God.
So which was it? Does God ever speak to people in such a
confusing way that they think it's a voice of a human in the
room?
Angels and saints certainly can talk sometimes to people in this
confusing manner; but they do it only under certain
circumstances. If someone is intended to act as a prophet, God
never speaks to him in this way that will confuse him. There
are two methods God uses to reveal Himself when He wishes to
use someone as a prophet.
Numbers 12:6 And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a
prophet among you, I the Lord will make myself known unto him in
a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.
First let's take the cases where people do hear audible voices
like this. In some cases, the person has spiritual ears but
for any of various reasons, they aren't working. This can be
the result of ill health, too many distractions of this world,
or even old age. The person could hear the Voice of God at
other times in a way that confuses him; but if he's too old or
too sick, perhaps he never will hear it the same way again with
spiritual ears. This is one reason the Bible says prophecies
cease. King David was an exception to the old age -- and he
retained his prophetic ability well into old age. When he did
succumb to old age, he took to his bed and we read that story
in 1 Kings 1. It is said by Jewish Tradition, he had been so
vigorous up to then that he satisfied all his wives up to then.
In many cases however old age can cause a cessation of
prophecy.
In other cases, the person is unable to hear the Voice of God
with spiritual ears because he doesn't have them and he will
hear any messages that Heaven wishes to impart to him like an
audible human voice.
This confusing method of communicating can happen at times if
it is important for the person to be told something but he can't
hear with spiritual ears for one reason or another. It never
happens if God wishes to use someone as a prophet. Why is
this? If someone's life is in physical danger but he lacks
spiritual ears, an angel may still speak to him in this
confusing way in order to save his life. If an angel wishes
to impart a message that is important to the person, the angel
may use this confusing way. The person will receive the
message and benefit despite the confusion. Hagar heard this
way. Hagar was not a prophet, but it was important for her to
get the message she got; but the message that was needed got
through.
If the person is meant to be a prophet however, God does not
want any kind of uncertainty to exist. God will reveal Himself
in one of two ways for the first time in order to teach the
person how to recognize the Voice of God and not get it confused
with human voices. The prophet should be able to be in a
crowd and discern the Voice of God easily and not believe
someone in the room is speaking to him.
We read that the first time Samuel heard the Voice of God, he
was in bed. He thought it was Eli. He was confused. Eli
told him to go back to bed, that he had heard the Voice of God
and not a human voice. We learn from this that Samuel at that
young age did not know the difference between hearing audible
human voices and hearing angelic voices with spiritual ears; but
once he was told, he learned quickly to discern the difference
and was never confused again. Was Samuel dreaming? I say he
was. I say God first revealed himself to him in a dream; and
the dream was so vivid, it woke him up and he thought the voice
he heard had been Eli's. I have two reasons to say he was
dreaming. The first passage does not say specifically however
that he was sleeping.
1 Samuel 3:3 And ere the lamp of God went out in the temple of
the Lord, where the ark of God was, and Samuel was laid down to
sleep;
It is difficult to say if Samuel was dreaming when he heard his
name being called the second and third times; but it is almost
for certain he was dreaming the first time. This is one of the
two methods God chooses to reveal Himself for the first time to
someone He wants to use as a prophet. The person is asleep
without other things happening around him, things are quiet, and
he may be alone in the room even. Thus he comes to know it
can't be a human voice. It must be a spiritual voice. He then
is not confused. Note that this is only a voice in a dream.
The other method God uses is visual. It may or may not
involve speaking; but it involves powerful visual elements and
is of such a quality that the person is sure about the source.
It is often a night vision; but it may also be a day vision.
If it is a night vision, the person knows he's not asleep. He
also knows that what he is seeing is not happening in the
physical world. He knows he is seeing things with spiritual
eyes. He really is awake; and when the vision is over, he can
get up and be wide awake at once without the least bit of
grogginess. It could be compared to walking from one room to
another -- the prophet, if his spiritual eyes and ears are of
superior quality, can navigate between the spiritual and
physical worlds without confusion as easily as you walk from one
room to another.
In still other cases, sometimes a person is wide awake in the
physical world when suddenly the Spirit projects into the sight
of the person. This can result in some confusion. The person
may not know, for example, that he's seeing an angel. Thus
Manoah's wife described the angel she saw as having a
countenance like an angel; but when Manoah saw him, he didn't
know it was an angel until the angel did something a human
couldn't. We can tell that Manoah's spiritual discernment and
spiritual eyes were inferior to his wife's from what they said:
Judges 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die,
because we have seen God.
23 But his wife said unto him, If the LORD were pleased to kill
us, he would not have received a burnt offering and a meat
offering at our hands, neither would he have shewed us all these
things, nor would as at this time have told us such things as
these.
They had not seen God. Manoah's statement is like Hagar's.
They had seen an angel of the LORD, and you could say they
"perceived" or "saw" that God was real by seeing the angel; but
it is not really possible to "see God."
Note that neither Manoah nor his wife were meant to operate as
prophets with messages for others. The message they received was
to tell them to raise their son as a Nazarite. It did not
matter if they saw and heard things perfectly. What mattered
was if they heard and saw enough in order to do what they needed
to do.
Returning now to Roberson's case, we see him confused in a
Kathryn Kuhlman service. His first instinct is that he was
being deceived. Then he decides it was really God. To make this
more interesting, this happened after the vision that he says
convinced him to become a minister. In that vision, he
mentions feeling the "Presence of the LORD" but that seems
vague to me. At any rate, he did not learn in that vision to
discern what was God and what was not.
I haven't discussed Kathyrn Kuhlman, and perhaps I should since
I find it strange indeed that this voice appeared at one of her
services. Perhaps I should discuss all the ministers Roberson
lists as having "fivefold ministries:" William Branham, George
Jeffreys, Maria Woodworth-Etter and Kathryn Kuhlman. He says
of them, "Each of these ministers of the Gospel stood in an
office ordained of God that was empowered by a certain blend of
the nine gifts of the Spirit." If I was preparing a list of
godly men and women, my list would not include such scandalous
people.
#Post#: 1838--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 9, 2015, 10:28 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Let's start with William Branham. All quotes are from Wikipedia
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_M._Branham.
Let's remember that Jim Jones launched his career by associating
with Branham.
In 1955, Branham's career suddenly began to falter. Jim Jones,
the founder and the leader of the Peoples Temple, best known for
the mass suicide in November 1978, used Branham to springboard
his own ministry. He organized a mammoth religious convention
that took place June 11 through June 15, 1956, at Cadle
Tabernacle in Indianapolis. To draw the crowds, Jones needed a
religious headliner, and so he arranged to share the pulpit with
Branham.
Branham also was charged by the IRS with tax evasion.
Financial difficulties came to a head in 1956 when the Internal
Revenue Service charged Branham with tax evasion. Where he once
had received "a thousand letters a day, his mail dropped down to
75" but Branham thought the decline was only temporary.
Then he had ideas about how the end of times was arriving.
By the 1960s, he had become an extremely controversial teacher.
In 1963, Branham taught that the "End Time Messenger who was the
Angel of the Seventh Church Age in these final closing days of
time had come in the spirit of Elijah". But an analysis of his
teaching on the identity of the Laodicean prophet-messenger
reveals an array of conflicting and confusing assertions and
disclaimers. Branham clearly believed that he was (and desired
to be) the eschatological prophet but also had doubts about his
role.
The result of his controversial teaching was that many
Pentecostals judged that Branham had "stepped out of his
anointing" and had become a "bad teacher of heretical doctrine."
He asserted that his doctrines were given to him by God; but
then changed his mind.
Prior to 1957, Branham taught a doctrine of eternal punishment
in hell. However, by 1957 he was proclaiming that hell was not
eternal:
If you see a man that's cheating, stealing, lying, just
remember, his part is waiting in hell, for him, his place where
he'll be tormented in the Presence of God and the holy Angels,
with fire and brimstone. He'll be tormented there. Not forever,
he can't be tormented forever, forever don't mean all, for all
times. Eternity is forever, Eternity is... has no beginning or
end. But forever is "a space of time." The Bible said, "Forever
and," conjunction, "forever." Jonah said he was in the belly of
the whale "forever." Is a space of time.
Annihilationism was not a new concept to Pentecostalism as
Charles Fox Parham had also advocated the doctrine.
While Braham had taught the doctrine since 1957, he suggested in
1960 that the Holy Spirit had just revealed it to him as one of
the mysteries that God was revealing in the "end-time".
Then he had prophecies that did not come to pass.
Branham claimed to have had a prophetic revelation in June 1933
that comprised seven major events that would occur before the
Second Coming of Christ. He believed that five of the seven
predictions, relating to world politics, scence and the moral
condition of the world, had been fulfilled. The final two
visions, one related to the Roman Catholic Church gaining power
in the United States and the second detailing the destruction of
the USA, would be fulfilled by 1977, subsequent to which Christ
would return. A comparison of Branham's descriptions of the
prophecies reveals his tendency to exaggerate and embellish his
actual predictions.
In December 1964, Branham also prophesied that the city of Los
Angeles would sink into the Pacific Ocean. This was subsequently
embellished to a prediction that a chunk of land fifteen hundred
miles long, three or four hundred miles wide and forty miles
deep would break loose causing waves that would "shoot plumb out
to Kentucky."
He was a showman, that's for sure. Did he heal as many people
as he claimed? Other ministries saw problems wth his claims.
During the mid-1940s William Branham was conducting healing
campaigns almost exclusively with Oneness Pentecostal groups.
The broadening of Branham's ministry to the wider Pentecostal
community came as a result of his introduction to Gordon Lindsay
in 1947, who soon became his primary promoter. In the same
year, Ern Baxter joined the campaign team. Gordon Lindsay proved
to be an able publicist for Branham, founding The Voice of
Healing magazine in 1948, which was originally aimed at
reporting solely Branham's healing campaigns. According to a
Pentecostal historian, "Branham filled the largest stadiums and
meeting halls in the world."
Controversy surrounded Branham from the early stages of his
ministry. In 1947, a minister in Saskatchewan, Canada, stated
that many who Branham pronounced as healed later died. A year
later, W.J. Taylor, a district superintendent with the
Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada, raised the same concern and
asked for a thorough investigation, presenting evidence that
claims of the number of people healed were vastly overestimated.
He stated that "there is a possibility that this whole thing is
wrong".
This man is not someone I would put on a list of men who were
given a "fivefold ministry." Yet Roberson has him on his list.
#Post#: 1840--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2015, 6:57 am
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Let's skip to Maria Woodworth-Etter whom her critics dubbed "the
voodoo priestess."
HTML http://www.canecreekchurch.org/what-s-your-legacy/18-maria-woodworth-etter<br
/>
In a small church in New Lisbon, Ohio, a young thirteen year old
girl was so taken aback by what was being preached that
everything in her was shaking. At the call for repentance she
rushed to the altar and gave her life to God, being "Born
Again." The preacher who led her to the Lord prayed that her
life "might be a shining light." God answered that prayer in
abundance. That young girl would become a powerful voice in the
Pentecostal movement. She would become the Legendary evangelist,
who worked many "signs and wonders," Maria Woodworth-Etter.
Marie would always remember the voice of God she heard deep in
her spirit that day:
"I heard the voice of Jesus calling me to go out in the highways
and hedges and gather in the lost sheep."
It doesn't say if the voice was audible like a human voice or
not; but you can see this does not fit the pattern Moses gave.
She then got married, had six children and five died. It was
about this time she had a vision.
Angels came into her room and:
"They took her to the West, over prairies, lakes, forests, and
rivers where she saw a long, wide field of waving golden grain.
As the view unfolded she began to preach and saw the grains
begin to fall like sheaves. Then Jesus told her that, ‘just as
the grain fell, so people would fall' as she preached."
The vision was so real that immediately she cast out the fear of
man and answered the call of God upon her life. She would preach
no matter what the fathers of the church would say and she asked
God to anoint her with great power and she then dedicated her
life to Him.
She entered the ministry and started preaching. (I wonder how
she interpreted Paul's words about wives obeying their
husbands?) Her ministry caught on and became very successful.
That was when she found out her husband was committing adultery.
Unwillingness to quit his infidelity and change his ways forced
Maria to get a divorce in January 1891. Less than a year later,
he remarried and began to publically slander Maria's character.
Within a few weeks he was dead of Typhoid Fever. Ten years later
she met a godly man, Samuel Etter, and they were married. Samuel
became a vital part of the ministry and together they preached
and labored for the Lord until he died twelve years later.
Divorce seems to have okay too.
The series of denominations she went through is interesting.
Since women were not allowed to be ministers then in many
churches, she left the Disciples of Christ church she belonged
to and her career started with the Quakers. It was with the
Quakers that she received the "baptism of the Holy Spirit in
1904. That means, of course, that she had heard the voice of
God and had that vision before she had been baptized in the Holy
Spirit.
From Wikipedia:
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Woodworth-Etter
It was while associating with the Quakers that she received the
baptism in the Holy Spirit while praying for an "anointing for
service".
After this experience, she began to preach. Reporting hundreds
of conversions, her campaigns attracted reporters from across
the country. She was briefly affiliated with the Brethren in
Christ but eventually joined the Church of God of the General
Eldership founded by John Winebrenner. She was dismissed from
the Church of God in 1904.
She began to pray for the sick in 1885, believing that those
with sufficient faith would be healed. Her meetings also became
known for people falling to the floor in trance-like states.
These people would later report profound spiritual experiences
while in such a state. As she preached throughout the nation,
her reputation grew, leading her to purchase of an 8,000 seat
tent in which to conduct her services. After 1912, she joined
the young Pentecostal movement and preached widely in
Pentecostal circles until her death.
It appears that she and her husband decided to do go into the
"traveling ministry" only after the failure of their farm.
From
HTML http://healingandrevival.com/BioMWEtter.htm
1890-1900 were tough years for Maria. The dramatic occurrences
in her meetings and life made her ministry highly controversial.
She had resistance from both the religious and secular
community. She was arrested in Framingham, Massachusetts for
claiming to heal people, but was released when many came forward
with their testimonies. In St Louis, Missouri she had some of
her most dramatic meetings in 1890 and 1891, but local
psychiatrists filed charges of insanity against her for claiming
that she saw visions of God. In one of Etter's meetings in 1890
an man named Ericson prophesied that San Francisco and Oakland
would be devastated by an earthquake and tidal wave on April
14th. This created quite a stir and the group was given
extensive (negative) media coverage. April 14th came and went
without the promised destruction and Ericson was
institutionalized for his prophesy and the Etter group left
town. (It is interesting to note that when a major earthquake
did occur in San Francisco on April 18, 1906 Etter and many of
her supporters felt that they had been vindicated about the 1890
prophesy.) In 1891 Maria divorced her husband for infidelity. He
was bitter and threatened to write a critical book about her
ministry if she did not pay alimony. He died within a year of
the divorce. Maria continued her ministry with friends and
associates. Even her own denomination struggled with what was
happening in her meetings and she came under considerable
pressure to stop. In 1900 she finally bowed to the pressure and
gave up her Evangelist's license in the Southern Eldership of
the Church of God. She was on her own.
I wonder if she did claim to have visions of God? I also wonder
how long the first husband continued with her in the ministry
while committing adultery?
Maria traveled extensively and met Samuel Etter in 1902 in
Arkansas. They married and worked together for next several
years. It is clear that Maria knew about the Azusa Street
meetings and later talked about her approval of the power of God
shown there. In 1912 she and Samuel ministered at a five month
long meeting in Dallas, Texas for F. F. Bosworth. This meeting
was widely reported in Pentecostal circles and her ministry
blossomed from that point on. In Pentecostal circles many of the
unusual things she'd experienced caused her to be considered a
forerunner in experiences with the Holy Spirit. She was well
known by John G. Lake who called her "Mother Etter" in his
sermons. She continued to travel and minister, but Samuel became
ill and eventually died in August of 1914. The strain of her
husband's illness and then loss, coupled with a grueling three
meeting a day ministry schedule caused Maria to become ill
herself with pneumonia in November 1914. At 67 she was feeling
herself close to death but God gave her a vision of Himself as
the conqueror of death and disease. He showed her she wasn't
done yet. By the end of January 1915 she was back on the road
ministering again.
It may seem cruel to note; but it's a fact: as is commonly the
case these healers get sickness in their own families and can't
heal their loved ones.
I don't know if I approve of women preachers -- unless they are
operating under the spiritual authority of a man. Clearly, this
woman was not, not when she divorced her first husband; and I'd
say she probably exercised most of the authority in her second
marriage. To me the divorce is dubious too since Jesus said
men should not divorce their wives except for fornication -- he
didn't say women could divorce their husbands for anything. I
find women preachers a little troubling to begin with, but add
to it that this woman chose to divorce her husband, and I have a
real problem.
#Post#: 1852--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2015, 7:51 pm
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What of George Jeffreys?
First his relationship with Aimee Semple McPherson is
interesting material. Jeffreys had visited McPherson's Angelus
Temple in 1924, and then two years later she came to Britain.
This was after the famous "kidnapping."
From the Hot Gospeller
HTML http://www.pctii.org/cyberj/cyberj13/hudson.html:
Although McPherson visited Britain in 1926, this visit was not
commented upon extensively in the secular press. The
significance of her visit was more internal to British
Pentecostalism. Her meetings at the Royal Albert Hall, London,
were a development in terms of the size of venue that
Pentecostals might attempt to fill. George Jeffreys, the
revivalist founder and leader of the Elim Pentecostal Church in
Britain, seems to have been hugely affected by McPherson.
Initially, after his visit to Angelus Temple in 1924, he
returned to his own nascent denomination and adopted the
Foursquare motif for his own churches and in 1926 he also hired
the Royal Albert Hall for the first time, the prelude to him
filling even larger halls around Britain.
Any concerns reflected in the newspapers during 1926-27 were
linked to her disappearance and the ongoing court case. At this
time, she was largely unknown in Britain, being described simply
as “a woman evangelist”. Her gender was the aspect of her
ministry that most defined her in the media’s mind. The
Birmingham Despatch referred to her as “an attractive widow, an
eloquent speaker”. At this stage, whilst the newspapers showed
some clear interest in the unfolding drama, it was too far
removed for their readers to be directly involved with it. It
was in April 1928 that the newspapers took a renewed interest in
the story. The difference at this time was due to her impending
visit to Britain. Suddenly, the potential for excitement and
scandal gathered the editors and news reporters to her and so
began an exhausting, though entertaining, relationship between
her and the British press that would last for the next six
years.
. . .
She visited London and spoke at Elim meetings held at the Surrey
Tabernacle in March 1926, returning a month later to speak at
the Easter conventions at the Royal Albert Hall. This was the
first time that Elim had booked this venue, and it is likely
that it was McPherson's presence there which attracted the large
crowds and consequently gave Jeffreys confidence to preach there
in later years without a guest speaker. Elim publications had
given her much print-space, particularly at the time of her
'kidnapping', even when her flamboyance was felt to be too
blatant for the English church-goers. However, the relationship
between McPherson and Jeffreys seems to have been of great
significance. Certainly, they were close enough for McPherson's
mother to invite Jeffreys to become the pastor of the Temple at
the time of McPherson's disappearance. However, the actual
nature of their relationship may never be determined exactly.
It is probably impossible to say what the exact nature of their
relationship was. My theory is that it didn't involve romance.
Jeffreys' relationship with his brother Stephen is another
matter. We see how schisms and the desire for control affects
so many churches; and Pentecostal churches are certainly not
immune from this. They may believe they are "all in one accord"
and "speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance," but
how can that be true when the spirit of division is so clearly
present?
From healingandrevilal.com
HTML http://healingandrevival.com/BioGJeffreys.htm:
There was a growing dissension between George and Stephen. Their
personalities were radically different. Stephen was possibly the
more gifted of the two, but George had strong administrative
gifts. Stephen would often agree to meetings at more than one
place for a given date. He would let meetings run on without
taking offerings or letting others do their parts. Stephen would
say what came to his mind, no matter what the consequences. He
also came to believe that George was jealous of him. In 1926
Stephen left the Elim movement and joined the Assembly of God of
Britain and Ireland. Things reamined strained between the
brothers for the next several years.
The years between 1925 and 1934 were extremely significant for
George. He began an evangelistic campaign that swept through
England. He invited Aimee Semple McPherson to speak at Surrey
Tabernacle in March of 1926. The response was so positive that
he rented Royal Albert Hall a month later and invited her to
join him again. Healings and miracles began to occur in his
meetings in significant numbers. When Aimee "disappeared" her
mother actually wrote Jeffreys and asked him to consider taking
over as pastor of Angelus Temple. E.C.W Boulton wrote a book
about those early years "George Jeffreys - The Ministry of the
Miraculous". In one crusade in Birmingham there were 10,000
converts. He also visited Switzerland, Sweden, Holland, In
Switzerland he saw 14,000 converted to Christ.
George supported a doctrine known as British-Israelism. The
principal belief was that the British (and other anglo-saxons)
were the spiritual and literal descendants of the ancient
Israelites. Not many of the churches in the Elim Movement agreed
with this belief. This doctrine had been around for some time,
but really began to become prominet for Jeffreys from 1933 on.
During the years 1936 to 1939 this was a major topic of letters
between Jeffreys and his Executive Council. George was also
wanting to step aside as leader of the movement to relieve
himself of the financial and bureaucratic obligations. His gift
was evangelism and he was tired of the constant drain due to
administrative issues. He also had continually shifting ideas
about church organization. He came to believe that churches
needed to be a locally led, rather than a centrally controlled,
structure. Relations became increasingly difficult and rumors
surfaced that Jeffreys was leaving the Elim Movement to start a
new work. Friendships that had lasted for years were cracking
under the strain. Jeffreys had a breakdown in 1937.
In 1939 Jeffreys tried to resign, but was asked to stay. He
eventually resigned as the head of the Elim movement in 1940. He
founded a new group called the Bible-Pattern Church Fellowship.
He asked his brother Stephen to join him, but although he did
join, Stephen's health was poor and he could not help. George
continued to preach but became increasingly isolated. He never
again had the impact of the 1925-34 years. He did have a
resurgence of influence in France and Switzerland in the
1946-1950 time period, coinciding with the rise of the healing
movement out of the US. He died on January 26, 1962. He is known
as one of the greatest evangelists that England has produced,
after George Whitfield and John Wesley.
It's interesting how some Protestant denominations fracture so
easily, lacking a governing board to resolve differences and to
make decisions so others don't have to argue about them. When
people disagree, they split off to form a new group. I ask if
the Spirit is at work when people do that?
I also would like Roberson to answer how all the gifts of the
Spirit can be said to be present in a church if people are
arguing how it should be governed. Isn't "governments" on
Paul's list?
1 Corinthians 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first
apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that
miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments,
diversities of tongues.
What a sad end those brothers came too. George could not heal
his brother Stephen, and then he had a breakdown of some sort
himself.
Perhaps Roberson would say they didn't pray in tongues enough
daily. I don't know about that; but such infighting and
bickering doesn't strike me as evidence of them having the Holy
Spirit. It just doesn't.
#Post#: 1854--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2015, 8:11 pm
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Now the strange love life of Katharine Kuhlman. From
Wikipedia
HTML http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathryn_Kuhlman.
Kathryn Johanna Kuhlman was born in Concordia, Missouri, to
German-American parents.[1] She was born-again at the age of 14
in the Methodist Church of Concordia, and began preaching in the
West at the age of sixteen in primarily Baptist Churches.
In 1935, Kathryn met Burroughs Waltrip, a Texas evangelist who
was eight years her senior. Shortly after his visit to Denver,
Waltrip divorced his wife, left his family and moved to Mason
City, Iowa, where he began a revival center called Radio Chapel.
Kathryn and her friend and pianist Helen Gulliford came into
town to help him raise funds for his ministry. It was shortly
after their arrival that the romance between Burroughs and
Kathryn became publicly known.
Isn't that interesting?
Burroughs and Kathryn decided to wed. While discussing the
matter with some friends, Kathryn had said that she could not
“find the will of God in the matter.”
What was there to find out? She shouldn't have married this
scallywag.
These and other friends encouraged her not to go through with
the marriage, but Kathryn justified it to herself and others by
believing that Waltrip’s wife had left him, not the other way
around.
Would it matter if his wife had left him? I'd say the Bible
says people are still married even if one leaves the other.
On October 18, 1938, Kathryn secretly married “Mister,” as she
liked to call Waltrip, in Mason City. The wedding did not give
her new peace about their union, however. After they checked
into their hotel that night, Kathryn left and drove over to the
hotel where Helen was staying with another friend. She sat with
them weeping and admitted that the marriage was a mistake. No
one seems to know exactly when the separation took place. In a
1952 interview with the Denver Post Kathryn said, "He
charged—correctly—that I refused to live with him. And I haven't
seen him in eight years." That would put the separation in
1944—which is probably accurate. This means they lived together
for the better part of six years." She was divorced by Burroughs
Waltrip in 1948.
My own view of that was she was living with a man for six years
who was married to another woman in the eyes of God. Can we
believe, really now, that God did not reveal this "marriage" was
wrong before she did it but then revealed it to her immediately
after?
Then there are the questions about her "miracles" and financial
practices -- also from Wikipedia:
Kuhlman traveled extensively around the United States and in
many other countries holding "healing crusades" between the
1940s and 1970s. She was one of the most well known healing
ministers in the world. Kuhlman had a weekly TV program in the
1960s and 1970s called I Believe In Miracles that was aired
nationally. The foundation was established in 1954, and its
Canadian branch in 1970. Towards her latter years she was
supportive of the nascent Jesus people movement which a
groundswell of interest in Jesus among young teens formerly
associated with drugs and the counter-culture.
Following a 1967 fellowship in Philadelphia, Dr. William A.
Nolen conducted a case study of 23 people who claimed to have
been cured during one of her services. Nolen's long term
follow-ups concluded that there were no cures in those cases.
One woman who was said to have been cured of spinal cancer threw
away her brace and ran across the stage at Kuhlman's command;
her spine collapsed the next day and she died four months later.
By 1970 she moved to Los Angeles conducting faith healing for
thousands of people each day as an heir to Aimee Semple
McPherson. She became well known for her uncanny gift of healing
despite, as she often bragged, having no theological training.
In 1975, Kuhlman was sued by Paul Bartholomew, her personal
administrator, who claimed that she kept $1 million in jewelry
and $1 million in fine art hidden away and sued her for $430,500
for breach of contract. Two former associates accused her in
the lawsuit of diverting funds and of illegally removing
records, which she denied and said the records were not private.
According to Kuhlman, the lawsuit was settled prior to trial.
This kind of squabbling over money is always fascinating since
people are tempted to say "evil" men will sue men and women of
God. Yes, we may want to defend people we like. I grew up
hearing Kuhlman myself on the radio, and I liked her. I still
do as a matter of fact. I can't say however that these
financial problems and lawsuits were completely the result of
evil men saying bad things. If they were such wicked men, why
didn't God reveal that to her? When I hear Pentecostals
saying the people they trusted stabbed them in the back, I
wonder about that, "Well, why did you trust them? Didn't God
tell you not to trust them?"
So that's the list of ministers Roberson gave us. It doesn't
impress me.
#Post#: 1855--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 10, 2015, 8:41 pm
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^ The Deistic response to this is to suggest that "if God is in
human day to day situations then he is in both the good and the
bad, and not just in the good bits which are regarded as being
answers to prayer".
Alternatively the Deist will say that God does not intervene (in
either good or the bad instances) 'on request or demand', except
in exceptional circumstances at his sovereign choice.
#Post#: 1856--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 10, 2015, 9:03 pm
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=182.msg1855#msg1855
date=1431308471]
^ The Deistic response to this is to suggest that "if God is in
human day to day situations then he is in both the good and the
bad, and not just in the good bits which are regarded as being
answers to prayer".[/quote]
If God is everywhere (as so many say), of course He would in
everything. We should not stray from Monotheism and start
believing in one God who created good and another god who
created evil.
Those who fall into the dualistic view of God really have two
competing Gods; and since humans are so apt to "worship" that
they perceive as powerful, they are apt to worship all sorts of
things, including the "god" they believe created evil.
This should be a matter we can resolve without holy books or
holy men; but the Bible says as much too. God creates darkness,
Isaiah says, but forms light; and creates evil but makes
peace/shalom.
Another word for evil might be disorder. The creation was
chaotic, evil and dark. According to Genesis, God then
produced "good" things out of this chaos, evil and dark that had
been created.
[quote]Alternatively the Deist will say that God does not
intervene (in either good or the bad instances) 'on request or
demand', except in exceptional circumstances at his sovereign
choice. [/quote]
Why do you keep talking about God intervening in exceptional
circumstances? Wishful thinking?
God gave us a mind similar to His own. We can look at disorder
and create order out of it. We can see a room is dark and turn
on a light. We can also see evil and know it can be made
better.
Perhaps the biggest problem with people asking God to do things
is their belief they can do nothing themselves. Perhaps it's
laziness too. If we see evil, we should ask ourselves if there
is anything we can do about it. If there is something we can do
to make a situation better, that is God working, Mike.
According to Genesis, God Himself rested on Day Six. After
that, all His works would be done through His human servants.
Thus the two questions: Can I see things wrong in the world,
and can I do something about them? The abilities to see such
things and to do something to help are gifts of God. If we
cannot perceive the Divine in ourselves, surely it is
impossible to perceive it "out there."
If we do not use correctly the gifts of God given to us all, why
should He intervene as you put it? I say that when men do use
these gifts properly, they are rewarded by greater insights into
the world and given the ability to make more things happen.
Thus the Deists got a lot of things done. They weren't
spending their time speculating about things they knew nothing
about. Nor were they chasing signs and wonders.
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