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#Post#: 1810--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 7, 2015, 5:10 pm
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^ As I have time, I may keep reading Roberson's book. I'm
learning quite a bit from it about how some people interpret the
Bible.
The latest thing I saw his take on this:
Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he
speak to this people.
The passage as a whole has its difficulties; but it is clear
that that verse has God saying He will speak with stammering
lips and another tongue. Somehow Roberson interprets this to
mean he's the person speaking with stammering lips.
The real meaning is discerned by understanding how Israel
rejected the Voice of God at Sinai. They did not want to hear
it. It sounded like a threatening loud trumpet to them. Of
all that was contained in the message, Israel could hear
accurately only the ten sayings of the Decalogue. Moses could
and did hear the Voice of God much better. He then set down in
human words the various rules and laws -- with the stammering
lips of human language. The Written Torah is not the real
Torah. The real Torah is the Law of Light, the Law of Love.
Isaiah goes on:
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the
weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not
hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept,
precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a
little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall
backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
This passage is close to what David wrote:
Psalm 95:7 For he is our God; and we are the people of his
pasture, and the sheep of his hand. To day if ye will hear his
voice,
8 Harden not your heart, as in the provocation, and as in the
day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my work.
10 Forty years long was I grieved with this generation, and
said, It is a people that do err in their heart, and they have
not known my ways
11 Unto whom I sware in my wrath that they should not enter into
my rest.:
As you know, the written Scriptures were given for people who
had hard hearts and who were not ready to enter the perpetual
rest. Isaiah also mentioned that "rest." The struggle with
reading the Scriptures is trying to get past the hardness of the
heart that blocks out the Voice of God. If we read them with
hard hearts, we're apt to fall into taking the human words too
literally and going the way where the letter of the law kills.
God is not speaking to us clearly. He's talking but in the
stammering words of human language, and we aren't hearing what
lies behind them, "the Spirit of the Law."
Amazingly, Roberson plucks this verse out the chapter which has
God stammering to people and makes it about himself and how he
speaks in tongues. He ignores how Isaiah says the Word of God
can act as a snare to people. So it can too. I'd say we just
saw it can -- he appears to have fallen backwards, been snared
and may be taken.
It really floored me when he interpreted that verse that way.
Does he think he is God?
Or does he think God is speaking through his stammering lips?
Perhaps yes -- in fact, probably yes. If yes to that, where
does the snaring and being taken come into the picture? He
can't believe his stammering lips will lead others to
destruction, can he? I might be able to believe that! The
first meaning is about God spoke to the "drunkards of Ephraim",
not about Roberson speaks to people; but there could be a
parallel.
Still, I was just flabbergasted when he made that verse about
him talking when it says it is how God talks to some people.
#Post#: 1811--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 7, 2015, 6:17 pm
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From page 4:
Then in 1997, the Lord spoke strongly to my spirit, saying,
"This message on tongues has come to maturity."
At first, I thought God meant the message had come to maturity
in me. Later I came to understand that He wasn't talking about
me in particular at all. He was saying that the time had come to
share in a broader measure the revelation knowledge He had given
me over the years regarding praying in tongues. The message had
come to maturity for the Body of Christ.
I'll admit that a prophet sometimes does not understand all his
prophecies; nor is it necessary for a prophet in his own day to
understand fully what events will happen later, perhaps
centuries later. However if God is giving someone directions
now, I think He'd be clear about it. If this message Roberson
got was from God; I say he probably understood it correctly
at first. I would take this message, not given in tongues but
in clear language, to mean Roberson had spoken enough in tongues
and was ready to to receive things more clearly. That's how he
took it at first, it seems.
His later understanding seems flawed to me. He imagines himself
to be a prophet with a message for others.
The Lord has commissioned me to teach believers how to live a
life of power as they walk in the Spirit, always building on the
foundation of the Word and praying in tongues as the Holy Spirit
gives utterance. This book is written out of my desire to be
faithful to that divine commission.
That is a strange way to look at the original revelation to me
where it's in the past tense. It "has come to maturity", not
"It is the time for this message on tongues to come to
maturity." It is also a strange way to look at himself in
historical terms.
#Post#: 1812--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 7, 2015, 6:53 pm
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Now consider this passage:
In the eternities of time past, a vast, complex plan for mankind
unfolded on the inside of God. In His infinite wisdom, He left
nothing out as He looked down through the ages. He passed
through generation after generation, planning every intricate
detail of every life that would live on the face of the earth.
God's desire was to recover as many as possible from Satan's
rebellious camp and to gather unto Himself a people He could
call His family.
His mind is running riot as he tries to imagine what the Mind
of God was doing before creation. He has God imagining all the
problems Satan will cause but then apparently God created
Satan. It sounds like God wanted men to suffer so He could
rescue them and then perhaps have them tell Him how grateful
they were for being rescued from Satan -- when God invented the
whole mess to begin with!
He then discusses his views on free will and predestination and
quotes Matthew 7:13-14 and says:
Jesus' words indicate that the majority of people end their
lives with one final journey into a godless eternity without
Him. A person can live and die and go to hell without knowing
Jesus or fulfilling God's plan for his life. However, that
doesn't change the fact that God has a perfect plan of
redemption and purpose for that person; he just never discovered
it.
Roberson may thinks Satan has more power than God. God tries
and tries, but Satan still gets the most souls! What an idea!
It sounds demonic to me -- I think it's demonic to imagine God
and Satan battling it out and Satan gets the most souls. It's
demonic because it's saying Satan has more power than God.
Roberson's ideas of God's best doesn't seem very good to me.
God wants to save everyone but then creates a world where most
people won't be saved? What kind of fantastic idea is that?
Again, this strikes me as demonic.
Of course, Roberson doesn't know how to read Matthew 7; and a
discussion about that is beyond the scope of this thread; but
Roberson doesn't read that passage in context. Jesus is talking
to an inner circle there in the Sermon on the Mount, not to the
multitudes. The same day, after coming down from the mountain,
Jesus said something else:
Matthew 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the
east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and
Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer
darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
What happened when Roberson was reading Matthew? Did he read
chapter 7 and think he understood it perfectly when Jesus said
"few" will find the strait gate and narrow way? Did he remember
reading that when he read chapter 8 where Jesus said "many" will
sit down with Abraham?
Roberson might be one of the children of the kingdom who did not
find that strait gate and narrow way and is in danger of being
cast into the outer darkness. He may wish he had been more
like the Roman with his simple faith.
Do take another look at Matthew 7:
7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and
broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be
which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which
leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
That says it's hard to find the gate that leads to life. It
does not say that most people are going to burn in hell
eternally for not finding it -- or to use Roberson's words, "end
their lives with one final journey into a godless eternity
without Him." It doesn't say that. It does say the way to
destruction is broad; but again that is not saying it
necessarily leads to "a godless eternity." It could mean that
but we have Matthew 8 telling us something else and for "many"
to sit down in the kingdom with Abraham, it can't mean that. If
we had the wrong interpretation reading chapter 7, chapter 8
should correct us.
Roberson follows a tradition of men. He picks the verses that
seem to prop up his opinions but fails to take other passages
into account. If the Bible contradicts the tradition of men he
holds, he ignores them. That is not the way we should read
the Bible. We should read it hoping to be corrected if our
views are wrong.
2 Timothy 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and
is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for
instruction in righteousness:
Roberson has a theology that promises God will save "me" while
condemning most people to hell. I guess that works for him; but
I wouldn't have a very high opinion of God if He saved me and a
handful of others and condemned most people to hell. I am no
better than they. I feel confident if God can save me, He can
save them too.
If a car manufacturer made a million cars and only one worked
right, I'd put the blame on the manufacturer for design flaws.
Similarly if God designed man and most of them are doomed, then
I'd say God had a design flaw. I cannot believe this can be true
about God. Yet Roberson says God knew before He made us that
most of us would be doomed. If God is not willing that any
should perish, I'd think He could do better than Roberson
imagines.
Or does he have a universe in which Satan wields more power than
God? Does he think God is loving but not strong enough to save
more than a few?
He has wrong ideas about God. He's following a tradition of men.
#Post#: 1815--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Poppy Date: May 8, 2015, 5:34 am
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I wonder what language God spoke when he said, "Let there be
...." and when he spoke to Adam in the garden. It wouldn't have
been any earthly language.
#Post#: 1816--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2015, 6:12 am
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[quote author=Poppy link=topic=182.msg1815#msg1815
date=1431081261]
I wonder what language God spoke when he said, "Let there be
...." and when he spoke to Adam in the garden. It wouldn't have
been any earthly language.
[/quote]I remind you that the letter of the law can kill. The
"Voice of God" in Eden was something that could walk!
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in
the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid
themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees
of the garden.
Note that it doesn't say they heard the LORD walking or the
Voice of God addressed them while walking. No, they heard the
Voice of God walking.
Of course, it might not mean "walking" and it might not mean "in
the cool of the day." It might mean they heard the Voice of
God going west in the direction of the the sun -- some Jews
say that. Since it was the afternoon, they say, the Voice
of God was moving from east to west.
Compare to:
Matthew 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and
shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son
of man be.
Two different cases of course, but that same principle of east
to west movement is involved, just as it was when Abraham moved
from the east to the west, and just as the wise men saw the Star
in the east and followed it as it moved westward.
If we think God used an angelic language when He said, "Let
there be light," the question then would be if matter itself
can understand angelic languages. Can we believe water also
understands angelic languages since they separated at His Word?
Could you believe that the Word of God is still forming light?
It is. Can you hear it? Something in the darkness must be
able to hear it because darkness is still able to become light
-- and that is true both physically and spiritually.
#Post#: 1817--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2015, 6:40 am
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Roberson said he asked why God gave such a peculiar language to
use in prayer. The answer from page 9:
"Among men a language has never come into existence that carries
the vocabulary to express everything I am in you through Jesus
Christ. Since there was no language with such a vocabulary, I
had to create my own and loan it to you while you are on earth.
I just loan it to you till you come up to Heaven; then it will
cease."
This answer tells me something. He probably is talking to
something. Whatever he's talking to seems to know a few things.
I agree that angels have languages that are far more
expressive than any human ones. Yes, I'd say that part of his
theory is right. I wouldn't say however that God had to create
a language to "express everything" to men who can't even
understand the language! How would that work?
Does this sound all that expressive to you? It sounds more
like baby talk to me.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNCR6PZ4-oA
Later (page 206) he says tongues will cease when you get to
Heaven where there is only one language. He says you'll be
able to go up to anyone and hold a conversation because everyone
speaks the same language.
I wonder why God doesn't use that same language now when He
speaks to men? If nobody understands what's he is saying when
praying in tongues, why create other ones? Why not use the one
language everyone already uses in Heaven? Why create new ones?
I may address the passage about tongues and prophecies ceasing
later -- what the Jewish tradition says of such things and also
what the early church said.
#Post#: 1820--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: bradley Date: May 8, 2015, 12:56 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=182.msg1816#msg1816
date=1431083534]
I remind you that the letter of the law can kill. The "Voice
of God" in Eden was something that could walk!
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in
the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid
themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees
of the garden.
Note that it doesn't say they heard the LORD walking or the
Voice of God addressed them while walking. No, they heard the
Voice of God walking. [/quote]
Not trying to be nitpicky, but the location of a comma could
make all the difference in the world, and since original
documents are not on hand, and neither the author, I wouldnt say
that would be a sure thing.
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God, walking in
the garden, in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid
themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees
of the garden
With these 2 commas added, its simply that they heard the Lord
speaking while he was walking in the garden.
#Post#: 1822--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Heartsong Date: May 8, 2015, 3:12 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Kerry link=topic=182.msg1817#msg1817
date=1431085226]
Roberson said he asked why God gave such a peculiar language to
use in prayer. The answer from page 9:
"Among men a language has never come into existence that carries
the vocabulary to express everything I am in you through Jesus
Christ. Since there was no language with such a vocabulary, I
had to create my own and loan it to you while you are on earth.
I just loan it to you till you come up to Heaven; then it will
cease."
This answer tells me something. He probably is talking to
something. Whatever he's talking to seems to know a few things.
I agree that angels have languages that are far more
expressive than any human ones. Yes, I'd say that part of his
theory is right. I wouldn't say however that God had to create
a language to "express everything" to men who can't even
understand the language! How would that work?
Does this sound all that expressive to you? It sounds more
like baby talk to me.
HTML https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNCR6PZ4-oA
[/quote]
It sounds exactly the same as so many others I've heard who
claimed to speak in tongues. They all sound the same.
I wouldn't think that the holy spirit would be upon a man like
Robert Tilton anyway yet he tries so hard to make people
believe otherwise. And he isn't the only one.
The following information is provided by WIKIPEDIA.com ...
A 1991 ABC News investigation, spearheaded by Trinity Foundation
president Ole Anthony and broadcast on ABC's Primetime Live on
November 21, 1991, found that Tilton's ministry threw away
prayer requests without reading them, keeping only any money or
valuables sent to them by viewers, to the tune of more than $80
million (U.S.) a year.
#Post#: 1823--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2015, 5:27 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=bradley link=topic=182.msg1820#msg1820
date=1431107802]
Not trying to be nitpicky, but the location of a comma could
make all the difference in the world, and since original
documents are not on hand, and neither the author, I wouldnt say
that would be a sure thing.
Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God, walking in
the garden, in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid
themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees
of the garden
With these 2 commas added, its simply that they heard the Lord
speaking while he was walking in the garden.
[/quote]The original wouldn't have had any punctuation. I
follow the tradition of Hillel and Gamaliel which was passed
down through all the prophets -- and Jesus quoted Hillel and
other parts of the Oral Torah. They say it was the Voice
Moving.
HTML http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/8167#showrashi=true
God is not like men with arms and feet, nor could God be
contained in a body to walk about or even in Eden. As Solomon
said, even the Heaven of heavens could not contain God. Yet
God can manifest anywhere and so we read that the "glory of God"
filled the Temple when Solomon finished praying. I can believe
the glory of God was in the Temple, but I cannot believe God was
inside the Temple. So I also cannot believe God Himself was
inside a body inside Eden walking.
The Bible often uses human language with human attributes in
talking about God, but we should not believe these are literally
so. Some prophets say "like unto" or "as it were." They know
what they are seeing is symbolic and not real. Some omit those
phrases, but we should still know God does not have a physical
body the way humans do.
Similarly when we read the LORD "came down" to see what was
going on at the Tower of Babel, we should not believe God needs
spectacles and had to come down closer to observe things. God
is not limited by space as we are. Most people will say God is
everywhere but may still think He wasn't on the earth and had
to "come down" because Genesis uses that phrase to express a
truth.
Even if Genesis said God was walking in the Garden, I would not
interpret it by the letter. Such a thing is not possible.
There was a manifestation of God however. God can manifest
anywhere anytime. I would say God manifested in Eden as what
we could call -- using human language -- "the Voice of God."
#Post#: 1824--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 8, 2015, 5:42 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
[quote author=Heartsong link=topic=182.msg1822#msg1822
date=1431115950]
It sounds exactly the same as so many others I've heard who
claimed to speak in tongues. They all sound the same.
I wouldn't think that the holy spirit would be upon a man like
Robert Tilton anyway yet he tries so hard to make people
believe otherwise. And he isn't the only one.
The following information is provided by WIKIPEDIA.com ...
A 1991 ABC News investigation, spearheaded by Trinity Foundation
president Ole Anthony and broadcast on ABC's Primetime Live on
November 21, 1991, found that Tilton's ministry threw away
prayer requests without reading them, keeping only any money or
valuables sent to them by viewers, to the tune of more than $80
million (U.S.) a year.
[/quote]I remember the first time I saw him. I thought he was a
comedian pretending to be a Pentecostal preacher; and I was
slightly offended that a comedian would be poking fun at
religion that way. When I realized it was not a comedy act
because it was on the religious channel, I thought, "Who could
take this man seriously?"
I heard that in his younger days, he used to get drunk with a
friend and go to Pentecostal services for the fun of it. I guess
he spotted the money-making opportunities and decided to go into
the business himself.
Yes, they threw away the prayer requests. I believe his bank
that did that for him. All his mail went to his bank and people
there opened it -- and Primetime found the prayer requests in
their dumpster. It is sad to think of all the prayer requests
people sent which never got read -- sad that he could be so
callous and sad people could be so naive and easily taken
advantage of when so many of them had problems. It's also sad
to think a bank would help him perpetrate such a fraud.
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