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#Post#: 1763--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Poppy Date: May 5, 2015, 4:42 pm
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[quote author=Piper link=topic=182.msg1761#msg1761
date=1430862019]
[font=trebuchet ms]Did Jesus pray in tongues? Or was it
strictly a gift imparted after He ascended?[/font]
[/quote]
As he already had all spiritual knowledge and didn't need to be
built up I don't think he would need to, but hey who knows.
#Post#: 1764--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 5, 2015, 4:47 pm
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Why don't we call 'it' undecipherable noises?
Is it not related to tics as in Tourette’s syndrome?
One of the three Pentecostalists who laid hands on me when I was
a young Fundamentalist suffered from Tourette’s syndrome.
The other two pronounced him to be demon possessed and regularly
laid hands on him to exorcize the demon.
When he was praying in tongues and displaying Tourette’s
syndrome simultaneously the effect was exactly similar to what
was shown in the first of my three videos.
#Post#: 1765--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Poppy Date: May 5, 2015, 4:54 pm
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=182.msg1764#msg1764
date=1430862463]
Why don't we call 'it' undecipherable noises?
Is it not related to tics as in Tourette’s syndrome?
One of the three Pentecostalists who laid hands on me when I was
a young Fundamentalist suffered from Tourette’s syndrome.
The other two pronounced him to be demon possessed and regularly
laid hands on him to exorcize the demon.
When he was praying in tongues and displaying Tourette’s
syndrome simultaneously the effect was exactly similar to what
was shown in the first of my three videos.
[/quote]
Well obviously you've had a bad experience but if it was good
enough for St Paul it's good enough for me. Why would you argue
with him?
I haven't watched the videos as they have no bearing whatsoever
on the topic under discussion in my OP. I think you only posted
them to stir things up and cause disruption. You do that a lot.
#Post#: 1766--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Piper Date: May 5, 2015, 5:02 pm
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[quote author=Poppy link=topic=182.msg1760#msg1760
date=1430861687]
This is what Paul says about tongues.
For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but
to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by
the Spirit. 1 Corinthians 14:2 [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]But, I thought in Acts, the Apostles spoke
and people from other nations understood them clearly in their
own tongue. And, I thought elsewhere it is encouraged to
interpret (as in my first post).[/font]
[quote]I thank God that I speak in tongues more than all of you.
1 Corinthians 14:18 [/quote]
[font=trebuchet ms]I'm not sure of the context, but out of
context it sounds as though Paul is boasting; as if I were to
say, " I thank God I have more faith and wisdom than all of
you."
Methinks me is confused. ???[/font]
#Post#: 1767--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Piper Date: May 5, 2015, 5:15 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms] Sorry, I need to study 1 Cor. further.
Surely I'm missing something, perhaps the difference between
private prayer in tongues and praying in tongues at a meeting
(which benefits no one without interpretation.)[/font]
#Post#: 1768--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Poppy Date: May 5, 2015, 5:16 pm
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[quote=Piper]But, I thought in Acts, the Apostles spoke and
people from other nations understood them clearly in their own
tongue. And, I thought elsewhere it is encouraged to interpret
(as in my first post).[/quote]
Tis what I explained a few posts back Piper:
[quote=Poppy]There are (four) different manifestations of
speaking or praying in tongues.
One can be led by the Spirit to pray out loud in a meeting for a
specific reason and there will be an interpretation either by
the one who spoke or by another.
Then there are the groaning intercessory prayers in the spirit
as God lays something on our hearts.
There is the type of tongues which is the speaking in a real
language that one hasn't learned for those who are there to
hear.
And then there is the use of tongues in our personal prayer time
for our own edification. Which is what my OP is about.
[/quote]
#Post#: 1769--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Poppy Date: May 5, 2015, 5:19 pm
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[quote=Piper]I'm not sure of the context, but out of context it
sounds as though Paul is boasting; as if I were to say, " I
thank God I have more faith and wisdom than all of you."[/quote]
He isn't boasting Piper he is saying how important it is speak
in tongues and encouraging the new Christians at Corinth to
follow his example.
#Post#: 1770--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Piper Date: May 5, 2015, 5:29 pm
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[font=trebuchet ms]^^Thanks, yes. Think I'm gettin' tired.
Sorry. Different manifestations. That helps.
^ Perhaps Paul is only expressing gratitude, but there he is
also encouraging interpretation, as he goes on to say, " . . .
nevertheless, in church I would rather speak five words with my
mind, in order to instruct others, than ten thousand words in a
tongue." He seem to be saying tongues in church benefit no one
without interpretation.
Must go, for now . . . Blessings! xxoo[/font]
#Post#: 1772--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: Kerry Date: May 5, 2015, 8:59 pm
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[quote author=Poppy link=topic=182.msg1741#msg1741
date=1430843741]
Why is it that all discussions about tongues turn negative with
people giving more credit to Satan for the counterfeit than to
God for the genuine? It happens every time the gifts of the
Spirit are mentioned. Come on folks give some credit to God for
the real gifts and stop knocking them.
[/quote]You asked, so I'll answer. People who live in glass
houses should not throw stones. When someone who speaks in
tongues "turns negative" and suggests that Satan is deceiving
people who don't speak in tongues, he's attaching other
Christians. It reminds me of those Jewish leaders who
attacked Jesus for being a tool of the Dark Side when in fact
they were.
Do you think innocent people who don't speak in tongues should
sit still while people like Roberson tells them they're deceived
by the Devil? He threw the first stone here; and perhaps your
intention was not to stir up controversy and division, but you
did.
Let me be very clear. No one here started a thread attacking
people who speak in tongues. No one brought up the subject
accusing Pentecostals of being deluded or under the influence of
Satan. You started it by posting that bit from Roberson which
I find accusatory of others. I don't care who speaks in
tongues and who doesn't.
I do care however if someone says others are under the influence
of Satan if they don't speak in tongues. In fact, that makes me
wonder if they themselves are under the influence of Satan and
trying to point the finger of condemnation at others while
pretending to be so holy themselves. Satan is the accusing
one, so when I see accusations and condemnation pop up, it makes
me wonder. Who throws the first stone? I'd say it was
Roberson here, and you merely repeated his words. I'd also say
he probably knows less about God than you do; but he can put on
an act and impress people.
There is something that strikes me as unclean about people like
him. It is as if they have a demon that possesses them and that
craves to possess others. They're bent on trying to talk as
many people as possible into getting under the same influence.
They are willing to contradict the Bible to do it too since the
Bible says not everyone speaks in tongues; but that's not what
the demon wants. He wants everyone to be under his influence
and speak in tongues.
I read a few pages of that book and was amazed at some of the
rubbish he wrote. i was hoping this thread would lose steam;
but I can go through the parts I read and expose his rubbish for
what it is. My only question is where and when did he go off
track. He says some things which leads me to believe he was on
the right track once; and I don't know, but other remarks he
makes suggest to me he was seduced by the Dark Side at some
point despite his "warning" others to beware of the Devil. I
do know he's being satanic when he says everyone else who
doesn't speak in tongues is being deceived by Satan -- oh, what
a sly way of putting that accusation against the saints.
Yes, who throws the first stone? Remember the Jewish leaders
who said Jesus had a demon? They were throwing the first
stone, and guess who really was under demonic control? That's
a tactic used by religious leaders to try to keep control over
their followers. Cult leaders often demonize outsiders as
dangerous, wicked, or inferior in some way to their followers.
When Roberson says people who don't speak in tongues are
deceived by Satan, it makes him look like a cult leader to me
who is trying to keep his followers in line and under his
control by portraying outsiders who don't speak in tongues as
under the influence of Satan.
I think I can tell the difference here. Godly people who speak
in tongues do not expect everyone else to do it and they don't
condemn people who don't. They respect the fact that different
people have different gifts. Unholy people want everyone to
have the same unholy spirit they do and talk in tongues the way
they do. You can tell by the Spirit of Love in the first
people and the satanic spirit of condemnation in the second.
-----------------------------------
There is a major problem with believing everyone must speak in
tongues. It's not God's Will that everyone speak in tongues.
The Bible says that. We are told different people have
different gifts.
The Body of Christ is like a human body where different body
parts do different things. Each part needs the other. The eyes
need the feet because the eyes can't move the body around; and
the feet need the eyes to see where to go. The uniqueness of
each body part is valued by the other. The lesson I draw from
that is that we should be thankful to God for other people's
gifts when they benefit us. We should be grateful when we have
a gift that can be used to help others and grateful too when
they have gifts that help us.
If we insist everyone be the same in some way, if we insist that
everyone must speak in tongues, we are going against the Will
of God. To persist in such a course is to invite demonic
impostors. The demonic wants to pass itself on, so it will
tell the person he hasn't received the Spirit until he has the
"proof" of speaking in tongues. Again, this is accusing and
condemning and putting our faith in "signs and wonders."
When someone suggests to me that Satan might be influencing me
because I don't speak in tongues, my first thought is that he is
the person who is probably under the influence of Satan. Just
like the serpent in Eden, he suggests something is wrong when
nothing is, suggests I am inferior somehow, and suggests maybe
I could get this or that by following him. When my conscience
is clear, I don't take that kind of suggestion seriously. I
see it for what it is -- the cunning accusation that is trying
to get to put forth my hand to pluck something I feel inferior
without.
I do not feel inferior for not speaking in tongues, and nothing
Roberson says is going to make me feel inferior. I will not be
seduced by his kind of thinking. I am content that others do,
if they also show the Spirit of Love in their lives. We need
all the gifts; but I will not envy others or second-guess God
about why I don't speak in tongues.
If you want to discuss giving credit to God for the real gifts,
Roberson was a poor example to use. The smoke of Satan is
all over him. I've already shown how he is affected by the
spirit of accusation and condemnation. We have also seen hints
of how he twists the Bible around; and his book provides more
examples of how he mangles the Scriptures and imagines vain and
irrational things about God. I didn't get that far in the
book; but some examples come to mind. I don't have the exact
quotes in front of me; and I'd rather not paraphrase him.
Perhaps if I have the time, I'll find them and type them out --
I can't copy and paste them since my version in Acrobat won't
allow that.
It is difficult to discuss giving God the credit for the real
gift of speaking in tongues when discussing Roberson whose words
show the opposite.
#Post#: 1777--------------------------------------------------
Re: The importance of praying in other tongues.
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 6, 2015, 1:03 am
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As far as I am concerned it is quite pointless for members to
quote the bible in support of their PoV and in refutation of
mine (or in refutation of others).
Personally I cannot be sure who wrote what is in the Bible, when
and why they wrote what they did, which bits got altered along
the way, and which bits meant the same when they were originally
written as they do to us in the words that we currently read.
Based on what we currently read it seems to me that 'Tongues',
as at Pentecost, might have been a one off thing, and that
'Tongues' otherwise is a dubious phenonema, despite what it says
in Acts 2; especially if it is true that Acts, (just like much
if not all the rest of the New Testament) was 'produced' long
after Pentecost and at a time when Pentecost was a 'memory', and
other forms of tongues had become an 'experience'.
The entire mystery seems to me to be bound up in the motivations
of Constantine, his successors, and the consequential emergence
of the State Church (ultimately to be engulfed by Roman
Catholicism).
In that process I quite imagine that much of what was originally
written could well have been altered to suit the objectives of
those involved.
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