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#Post#: 1674--------------------------------------------------
Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves?
By: Kerry Date: May 1, 2015, 7:22 pm
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Which is it? Is faith a gift from God or something we summon
up ourselves?
#Post#: 1675--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 1, 2015, 8:35 pm
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According to my faith God wants man to 'trust' rather than to
'know' which is why faith (from whatever its source) differs
from man to man.
Faith in the Bible leads to just such a boundless range of
different faiths for exactly the same reason (IMO....or
'according to my faith').
According to my faith (based on the bits of the Bible that
support my faith) whenever man tries to turn his particular
faith into assumed knowledge God leads him back to 'trust' by
confusing his assumed 'knowledge'.(Babel as per Genesis 11 being
one 'Biblical' example which 'supports my faith')
But I take great care, in respect of my faith in God's use of
confusion, not to promote it in the form of 'assumed knowledge',
lest doing so might undermine my 'trust'.
May God help us all to 'trust' him.
#Post#: 1676--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: bradley Date: May 1, 2015, 10:21 pm
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^^So the people in Isreal (of the divided kingdom, the northern
kingdom) who had faith in Baal and other gods of wood, stone and
metal (idols), and sorta God as well, as long as it was popular
theology, actually pleased God because they had their own faith?
Is that what you think?
#Post#: 1677--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: Kerry Date: May 2, 2015, 1:02 am
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=180.msg1675#msg1675
date=1430530530]
According to my faith God wants man to 'trust' rather than to
'know' which is why faith (from whatever its source) differs
from man to man. [/quote]
Is it faith or wishful thinking to trust someone without knowing
anything about him?
[quote]Faith in the Bible leads to just such a boundless range
of different faiths for exactly the same reason (IMO....or
'according to my faith').
According to my faith (based on the bits of the Bible that
support my faith) whenever man tries to turn his particular
faith into assumed knowledge God leads him back to 'trust' by
confusing his assumed 'knowledge'.(Babel as per Genesis 11 being
one 'Biblical' example which 'supports my faith')
But I take great care, in respect of my faith in God's use of
confusion, not to promote it in the form of 'assumed knowledge',
lest doing so might undermine my 'trust'.
May God help us all to 'trust' him.
[/quote]If God wants to help us to trust Him, would He do
something to show us He's trustworthy? I'd say any trust in
someone or something without any evidence is more wishful
thinking than the right kind of faith.
Should we trust Iran not to be making nuclear weapons just
because they say aren't? Should a woman trust a man when he
says he's not cheating on her but while he disappears
mysteriously from time to time without explanation?
Considering the foolishness of men in trusting the wrong kind of
political and religious leaders, con artists and all kinds of
crooks, doesn't it make sense to believe that the wild variety
of belief systems we have as humans is probably the result of
wishful thinking? If God exists and is honest, I'd think He'd
be disappointed that people preferred to trust the phantasms of
their own minds rather than seek Him out. I believe there is a
God who gives evidence to those who earnestly seek Him. Faith
is a gift from Him -- real faith -- by grace you might say.
The other kind is just wishful thinking.
There seems to be a defect in man that makes him want to be
told lies, "sweet little lies." It doesn't matter if something
is true -- what matters is if it's something he enjoys
fantasizing is true.
#Post#: 1678--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 2, 2015, 1:12 am
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Trust in God should not be compared with trust in man.
Trust in man may well be 'wishful thinking'.
Trust in God is generic since God is our maker.
#Post#: 1681--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: Kerry Date: May 2, 2015, 7:20 am
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=180.msg1678#msg1678
date=1430547123]
Trust in God should not be compared with trust in man.[/quote]
I don't think I said they should be compared. I am saying
however that words have meanings; and I don't think we should
tinker with the definition of "faith" to suit our fancies.
I just planted some rhubarb. I have faith it will grow. I also
realize it may not; but I have good reason to believe it will.
The word means something, Mike. Real faith has some basis.
[quote]Trust in man may well be 'wishful thinking'.[/quote]
We can observe that some people are more trustworthy than
others. Thus we discover that it's wise to base our trust on
others on evidence of some sort. If you want to invest money,
you go find someone with a good reputation for handling money
in the past. You don't trust someone you meet in a pub who
tells he can double your money in 60 days. It does make more
sense to have more faith in some people than in others.
One thing that astonishes me about people is how a man may
commit adultery with someone else's wife and she tells him how
she doesn't love her husband and how much she loves him. Hold
up! She was willing to marry her husband. Why did she do that?
Did she tell him she hated him and wanted to marry him? So she
got mad and decided to give up on her marriage? Why is she
still married then? Why didn't she get a divorce? A man who
thinks a woman like that is going to be "faithful" to him is
delusional.
On the other hand, take a woman like Abigail. She knew she was
married to a fool; but she still acted in his best interest. I
think that impressed David. It didn't make him try to seduce
her though. When they did get married later, I bet he never
doubted her.
[quote]Trust in God is generic since God is our maker.[/quote]I
don't know how this statement applies. Trust and faith are
still trust and faith.
Back to my rhubarb, I was thinking just this morning I have
faith in the rhubarb growing, and I have faith God is behind it.
He designed the world so if I study how things work, I can
plant things and they'll grow. Sometimes things go wrong; but
then I need to study more carefully to see if I can learn more.
I plant my rhubarb and expect God's laws to take over for the
most part. I'm not doing much at all. You could almost say God
is doing most of it through the laws of nature. That suggests
to me that God is reliable.
#Post#: 1688--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: Kerry Date: May 2, 2015, 10:55 pm
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Let me start with something Paul wrote. The KJV reads as if
the saving faith is Jesus' faith and not ours -- and in this
instance, it's right.
Romans 3:22 KJV Even the righteousness of God which is by
faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe:
for there is no difference:
The translators of the NIV staggered at this and put "in" into
the sentence:
22 NIV This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ
to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and
Gentile,
Other translations also read "in." I could go on and on; but
Young's Literal Translation has it right:
22 and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus
Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no
difference,
Our faith is not our own. It was given to us. By grace!
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that
not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith then is not something we can summon up on our own. Can
Jesus give us more faith? One man seemed to think so.
Mark 9:23 Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things
are possible to him that believeth.
24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said
with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
25 When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he
rebuked the foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf
spirit, I charge thee, come out of him, and enter no more into
him.
26 And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him:
and he was as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
27 But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he
arose.
28 And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him
privately, Why could not we cast him out?
29 And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing,
but by prayer and fasting..
First Jesus tells the man all things are possible to him who
believes, and then he tells the disciples that that kind of
spirit can be cast out only by prayer and fasting. Faith is a
virtue given by God and can be increased by prayer and fasting.
It is also a virtue Jesus could impart to someone else who had a
little faith but not enough to cast out the demon himself.
Let us now pass on to how "faith comes by hearing." Is it mere
words only going out into the air and vibrating the air when
someone preaches "the Gospel" or "the Word"? Or is there
something more substantial involved? Is there a spiritual
energy or substance being transmitted?
Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the
word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went
into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
This is a "spiritual sound" here. Yes, the Apostles often
preached using audible words that the physical ears of men could
hear; but they also sent out a "sound" into all the earth, and
their "words unto the ends of the world." Thus we read also
that Paul said the Gospel had been preached in his day to "every
creature which under heaven."
Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and
settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel,
which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature
which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
The kind of "faith" that saves is not a kind of belief that we
summon up on our own after hearing a sermon. The faith that
saves can follow such a sermon but the faith that saves
originally came from God. God may have given it to Jesus who
gave it to one of his servants who gave it to someone else who
gave it to you; but the faith that saves is not something you or
I can create.
John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath
sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
This "drawing" influence is the kind of faith that saves; and it
all originally came from the Father. Still it also right to
say Jesus draws people since he can give others some of the
faith he received.
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw
all men unto me.
It is also right to say we play a role. If we have been given a
little faith, that is gift from God. We should use it right and
try to draw nigh to Him.
James 4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.
Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye
double minded.
If God has given us only a little faith, we should use the
little we have wisely. If we don't use what little we have been
given, we can lose it.
Matthew 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he
shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him
shall be taken away even that he hath.
What is using the little faith we have wisely? I'd say the man
portrayed Mark 9 is a good example. He loved his child. He
was not asking for more faith so he could be healed or saved
himself. He was being selfless and wished he had more faith if
that would help his child. I believe God is moved by that
kind of faith even when it is little and rewards it by imparting
more faith. If we have some faith but do not use it properly,
obeying the Golden Rule, that faith can die:
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being
alone.
#Post#: 1690--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: Kerry Date: May 2, 2015, 11:48 pm
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The story about the woman with the issue of blood also is
interesting.
Luke 8:43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years,
which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be
healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and
immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and
they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee
and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that
virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came
trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him
before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and
how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith
hath made thee whole; go in peace.
So which was it? Was it her "faith" that healed her or was it
the "virtue" in Jesus that left him and went into her? I'd say
it was both.
Call it what you will, "faith," "virtue," or even "power." It
all originally came from God. I believe it was her using the
little faith she did have properly that allowed the "faith" or
"virtue" in Jesus to leave him and becomes hers and then to heal
her.
#Post#: 1691--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: A nonny mouse Date: May 3, 2015, 2:23 am
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Kerry, effectively you have created 'faith' to accord with
selected parts of your preferred translations of what was
originally written and preserved by, and in the language of, the
Hebrews, and subsequently added to in the language of the Jews
of the first century AD.
My God belongs outside of any such 'narrow box'; being the God
of the entire wider universe stretching to the antipathy of the
Mediterranean.
[center]Ask not God the reason why
Nor if, what, how, or when
Simply pray “Thy will be done
On earth as it is in Heav’n”.[/center]
#Post#: 1692--------------------------------------------------
Re: Is faith a gift from God or something we summon up ourselves
?
By: Kerry Date: May 3, 2015, 7:27 am
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[quote author=A Trusting Deist link=topic=180.msg1691#msg1691
date=1430637784]
Kerry, effectively you have created 'faith' to accord with
selected parts of your preferred translations of what was
originally written and preserved by, and in the language of, the
Hebrews, and subsequently added to in the language of the Jews
of the first century AD.
My God belongs outside of any such 'narrow box'; being the God
of the entire wider universe stretching to the antipathy of the
Mediterranean.
[/quote]I doubt you even read that entire post. If you did, you
didn't understand it.
I am saying that God can and does the needed faith to anyone
who is ready to receive it and use it. It does not depend on
human efforts, of the verbal words of men or the written words
in books. God will provide the faith needed. That may not fit
into your ideas about how the Gospel is preached, and it may not
fit into other people's ideas. But that is exactly what I'm
saying; and it's what I believe, and I produced Scriptures to
back my position up. Considering your views, I'd think you
agree. But perhaps you have an agenda yourself?
Refute what I say and explain those Scriptures if you think I've
mangled them. If you can find other Scriptures that portray
faith as something men conjure up on their own, you can present
those; but if you want to say that faith is not a gift of God
but something men summon up on their own, then you are making
salvation by works and not by grace.
As for my preferred translations? I study the original also to
see what it says and do my best to make an honest assessment of
how it ought to be translated, doing my best to set aside my
own prejudices. Let me confess something now. I don't think
I knew about the problems in Romans 3:22 and Galatians 2:16
until someone recently asked about it. I believe it was Laurie
at LGO. I had no idea what she was talking about. When I had
read Romans 3:22, I had read it in the KJV but read it
recklessly not seeing it said "of" and not "in." The
prejudice of my mind had altered the sense of what I had read.
The question put was which translations were right since some
said "of" and some said "in." That surprised me to be blunt,
and I didn't know.
It also could have been a similar passage from Paul:
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works
of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have
believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the
faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the
works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
There is no preposition in the Greek, so "of" is right. Take a
look however at another passage in Galatians:
Galatians 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in
Christ Jesus.
The Greek preposition for "in" is present and thus the KJV
translates that as "in."
I don't know why it matters to you since what the Bible says is
of no consequence to you anyway. You believe whatever you want.
It does matter to me, and that is why I changed my opinion on
this not too long ago. Once I saw that, other passages started
making more sense. Prior to that, I had no clue what "faith"
and "grace" meant when used in the same sentence. It didn't
make sense to me. If I had to summon up faith to be saved,
how could it be by grace then? If it wasn't by works, why say
we must have faith if having faith is something we must do on
our own steam?
Frankly, I don't put that much stock in Paul's writings since
they are so hard to understand and I consider some of them under
a cloud, suspecting some have been had things added to them. I
would never base my ideas solely on the Pauline writings; but in
this case, Paul's odd way of phrasing things shook me up enough
and once I saw what he probably meant, other passages from the
Gospels clicked. When that happens, I feel confident I have put
a misunderstanding behind me.
Odds are if you find a Scripture that perplexes you and you
finally see it in a new light, if the new meaning is right, it
will shed light on other Scriptures too. More than one passage
will be cleared up. That is what happened with me.
I believe it also helps to explain why John said Jesus was the
Light that lights every man who enters the world. There is no
one born who has not received Light. If that's not a gift from
God that should be evidence, what would be? We have
consciences too. Are those not also evidence of God? Are they
not also a gift of God meant to benefit us? You may not
believe the opening story in Genesis; but surely you believe
that nature is evidence that God exists. Your faith is not
based on nothing if you can see nature as evidence.
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